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Thread: Heads of Religion

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    Heads of Religion

    I know that catholic and orthodox christians both have their own heads of religion, the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch, and I am also led to believe that the followers of Islam have their own head of religion (but I am not sure about this); but I have seen that catholic heresies do not have a head of religion.

    This has got me thinking, would it be possible to set up a heretical pope/partriarch of a heretical faith (e.g. the lollards) if your ruler follows the teachings? This would be very interesting, but I have little idea of how centralized these heresies were in real life (e.g. if they had a singular leader), so any thoughts about this would be very much appreciated!
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    There are currently no head of heretic religions.
    The heads of the Muslim faiths are the two Caliphs, if I recall correctly.

  3. #3
    My own personal understanding is that the "heretic" catholic religions were all about getting away from a "head of religion", the only real exception being Anglican, with the head of the religion being the king of England.

  4. #4
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenwayb View Post
    My own personal understanding is that the "heretic" catholic religions were all about getting away from a "head of religion", the only real exception being Anglican, with the head of the religion being the king of England.
    the game finishes before the reformation not after it.
    Medieval heresies didn't see themselves as breaking from the church or establishing new churches, but as a movement within the church, So a religious head doesnt make sense. Their victory would not be setting up a new pope and a new church but winning the church around to their 'orthodoxy'.
    The thing to do for a heretic victory would be to have all catholics in the world have their religion value changed to an unused heretical one [Old Catholic or something like that] and then have the members of the heresy changed to Catholic, not separating from the Church but taking it over.
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    And if Catholics and Catholic Heretics sit apart for each other with clearly defined territories for century or two, doesn't it seem reasonable that a complete break from the Catholic church would be inevitable in this case? Even in the Reformation, the initial moves were towards seeking reform within the Catholic church. The Catholic Church's response to the reformers is what drove the Division, not some inherent difference between Medieval reform movements, and early modern reform movements.

  6. #6
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    the reformation comes after centuries of schism, plague, climate change and the collapse of medieval civilisation. The Shattering of Europe into the thousand shards of protestantism comes as a result of generations of degeneration, no one alive in the 16th century remembered a time when Europe was United. No-one in the middle ages could even imagine what it would be like if it wasnt.
    There were heresies which were around for centuries and in defined territories, and they didnt break from the church. The word Catholic meant Catholic, and all sides considered themselves Catholic, there was no concept of nation or nationalism, Europe was in CK2 terms, one realm with no kingdom authority and no executive or government but one realm. It is not inevitable that a heresy would break completely from the Church, it was inconceivable. It would not happen, neither the orthodox nor the heretic could even imagine that it might nor would he suffer it if he did.

    On the whole if it sat for centuries with defined borders it wouldnt sunder, it would be come old news. It would stop being heresy, education or dying passions would bring the heretic to compromise, the thing of difference would become a non-issue where both posistions are equal in orthodoxy as a question or controversy but not as a heresy, etc the conflict would no longer be heated or vast enough to compromise a heresy and difference between the two orthodoxies would either no longer be great enough or important enough to cause division within the church.
    The Friars as a good example, rather than being a heresy, they became an accepted but different movement within the orthodoxy, or pretty much all biblical interpretation issues, peterist etc, that when raised in the early church were named heresies but by the middle ages merely questions of little to no importance.
    Arch-Heresies being of course a clear exception, but as moslems are the only good example during the time covered by the game and theyre already dealt with its not worth worrying about.

    The major heresies of the middle ages are not compatible with such ideas, being revolutionary as in the albergesians or anarchic and passion driven as in the lollards. The only and best way to model the victory of heresy, although so unlikely a thing would be more effort than gain to do so, would be to have it replace the orthodoxy, not stand aside it and even then only a petty few would qualify.

    It might be conceivable that if the Albergesians stand powerful and permanent they could stand a papal pretender to the throne of st-peter, using Papal mechanics rather than anti-pope mechanics as from what i understand the anti-pope mechanic wouldnt work for antipopes at all and especially not different religion anti-popes. but maybe it would who knows.
    but it probably wouldnt be possible to have it not have such mechanic while weak. So the game mechanic purpose of becoming a heretic meaning being stripped of the privileges of europe and the church would be broken if from the start all had access to everything. Or would otherwise break the balance and sense of such mechanics.
    Last edited by Orinsul; 13-12-2011 at 08:12.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    the reformation comes after centuries of schism, plague, climate change and the collapse of medieval civilisation. The Shattering of Europe into the thousand shards of protestantism comes as a result of generations of degeneration, no one alive in the 16th century remembered a time when Europe was United. No-one in the middle ages could even imagine what it would be like if it wasnt.
    There were heresies which were around for centuries and in defined territories, and they didnt break from the church. The word Catholic meant Catholic, and all sides considered themselves Catholic, there was no concept of nation or nationalism, Europe was in CK2 terms, one realm with no kingdom authority and no executive or government but one realm. It is not inevitable that a heresy would break completely from the Church, it was inconceivable. It would not happen, neither the orthodox nor the heretic could even imagine that it might nor would he suffer it if he did.
    A lot of this is historically troublesome. It seems to me as though you're equating the term Catholic with the Roman Church, which a lot of heretic groups emphatically did not do. All the groups believed that their religion ought to be universal, so using Catholic to mean that is all right. But the Cathars despised the Roman Church, and wanted it to disappear, as did the more radical Lollards and Hussites. There were definite splits, because to those so-called heretics, disunity was better than damnation. They didn't want to reform the Roman Church, they wanted it gone. And the European unity point shouldn't be overstated, because even leaving aside these heretics, doctrinaire Catholics found themselves facing antipopes and schisms more frequently than they might like. Overall, I'll grant that Europeans were united under a Christianity they thought ought to be universal, but making any blanket claim much more expansive than that (and especially anything that has to do with the Roman Church) is woefully inaccurate.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ampersand View Post
    And if Catholics and Catholic Heretics sit apart for each other with clearly defined territories for century or two, doesn't it seem reasonable that a complete break from the Catholic church would be inevitable in this case? Even in the Reformation, the initial moves were towards seeking reform within the Catholic church. The Catholic Church's response to the reformers is what drove the Division, not some inherent difference between Medieval reform movements, and early modern reform movements.
    It doesn't matter. It's a game and it doesn't sim history perfectly, realistically, or perfectly realistically. The game is designed in a way that heresies are linked to a main religion. It all has to be defined before the game launches too.

    Personally, I like my ahistorical adventures, so I'll be making early Protestantism events, if possible.

  9. #9
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    No Coptic Pope in Alexandria??

    Another task for modders then...
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  10. #10
    Pope of Alexandria actually resides in Cairo during this period. Of course the title remains Alexandria.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorevai View Post
    Pope of Alexandria actually resides in Cairo during this period. Of course the title remains Alexandria.
    This. The current patriarchs of Antioch reside in Damascus as well, and this would probably true for Antioch late-game.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    the reformation comes after centuries of schism, plague, climate change and the collapse of medieval civilisation. The Shattering of Europe into the thousand shards of protestantism comes as a result of generations of degeneration, no one alive in the 16th century remembered a time when Europe was United.[i] No-one in the middle ages could even imagine what it would be like if it wasnt.[i]
    What? Are you suggesting that medieval Europe had some kind of political unity that was destroyed in the 14th Century? I don't even know if there is enough room in a forum post to list all the wars, just between Roman Catholics, from the 5th Century to the day Luther nailed his theses to the church door. If you are thinking of religious unity, I am again mystified. It's not like the Roman Catholic Church was a monolithic institution for 1000 years and then the Avignon Papacy came and messed it all up. Inculturation was the rule, not the exception, giving every region its own flavors of Christianity. That does not even count up the problems of different versions of the faith, like Celtic Christianity or the problems of local customs versus Roman ones (Synod of Whitby, anyone?)

    The Church might be catholic (and thus universal) in the Middle Ages (you ain't going to go to a Christian area without a local parish church of some kind, even if the local priest is absent from his duties), but to pretend that it was a monolithic institution that was uniform in its practices is pretty odd.

    On the whole if it sat for centuries with defined borders it wouldnt sunder, it would be come old news. It would stop being heresy, education or dying passions would bring the heretic to compromise, the thing of difference would become a non-issue where both posistions are equal in orthodoxy as a question or controversy but not as a heresy, etc the conflict would no longer be heated or vast enough to compromise a heresy and difference between the two orthodoxies would either no longer be great enough or important enough to cause division within the church.
    The Friars as a good example, rather than being a heresy, they became an accepted but different movement within the orthodoxy, or pretty much all biblical interpretation issues, peterist etc, that when raised in the early church were named heresies but by the middle ages merely questions of little to no importance.
    Well, I might agree with this. Personally, I think that modders will do wonders with event scripting for heresies that get planted and take root for extended periods. This is because I think that some pre-Reformation heresies (I'm looking at you, Wycliffe and Hus) could have resulted in an earlier Reformation if the Church had not been strong enough to deal with the problem or if either man could have gotten more secular backing.

    The major heresies of the middle ages are not compatible with such ideas, being revolutionary as in the albergesians or anarchic and passion driven as in the lollards. The only and best way to model the victory of heresy, although so unlikely a thing would be more effort than gain to do so, would be to have it replace the orthodoxy, not stand aside it and even then only a petty few would qualify.

    It might be conceivable that if the Albergesians stand powerful and permanent they could stand a papal pretender to the throne of st-peter, using Papal mechanics rather than anti-pope mechanics as from what i understand the anti-pope mechanic wouldnt work for antipopes at all and especially not different religion anti-popes. but maybe it would who knows.
    but it probably wouldnt be possible to have it not have such mechanic while weak. So the game mechanic purpose of becoming a heretic meaning being stripped of the privileges of europe and the church would be broken if from the start all had access to everything. Or would otherwise break the balance and sense of such mechanics.
    Well, that was my argument before. Denying heretics a religious head balanced out their Holy War CB, which is a very powerful perk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampersand View Post
    And if Catholics and Catholic Heretics sit apart for each other with clearly defined territories for century or two, doesn't it seem reasonable that a complete break from the Catholic church would be inevitable in this case? Even in the Reformation, the initial moves were towards seeking reform within the Catholic church. The Catholic Church's response to the reformers is what drove the Division, not some inherent difference between Medieval reform movements, and early modern reform movements.
    Well, I agree, except that I see the success of the Reformation in part due to a weakened church and Luther having enough secular support to oppose the church, something Wycliffe and Hus ultimately lacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    It doesn't matter. It's a game and it doesn't sim history perfectly, realistically, or perfectly realistically. The game is designed in a way that heresies are linked to a main religion. It all has to be defined before the game launches too.

    Personally, I like my ahistorical adventures, so I'll be making early Protestantism events, if possible.
    Well, we do lack a roadmap for what a historical successful heretical movement would have been like, since they were all basically defeated. Some people clung to their beliefs, but all those movements were ultimately beaten, hands down, so we don't have historical examples of their success.

    As I said, though, I don't think it unreasonable that the Reformation could get an early start if a heresy gained enough traction. But I can understand why Paradox isn't including mechanics of this nature. It would make the game less about the Middle Ages and more about trying to get to the Renaissance early.
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    If i'm not mistaken can't you set up anti-popes?
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    Anto-popes are heads of the same catholic faith as the normal pope. Not the head of a different religion (heresy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchling View Post
    Anto-popes are heads of the same catholic faith as the normal pope. Not the head of a different religion (heresy).
    Anti-pope still can be a heretic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezqu View Post
    Anti-pope still can be a heretic.
    I didn't know that. What happens if you manage to make the heretic anti pope the real pope? Will all catholics suddenly become heretics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchling View Post
    I didn't know that. What happens if you manage to make the heretic anti pope the real pope? Will all catholics suddenly become heretics?
    Don't know Pdoxlp could have made his anti-pope a heretic but didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezqu View Post
    Don't know Pdoxlp could have made his anti-pope a heretic but didn't.
    I haven't tried to do that yet. My assumption is that there might be some unobserved rule that prevents that sort of thing. I know that in previous DDs, when I specifically asked about heretics and heads of religion, the Devs seemed pretty adamant that heretics should not be able to become Pope or be a head of religion in general.

    The easiest way to do it would probably be to make your lord spiritual an anti-Pope, then have him research cultural techs. If you get lucky, he will embrace heresy and ask you to do the same, changing his religion. But would that remove him from anti-Pope status? And what about the claim he gets on Papal States?
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    I haven't tried to do that yet. My assumption is that there might be some unobserved rule that prevents that sort of thing. I know that in previous DDs, when I specifically asked about heretics and heads of religion, the Devs seemed pretty adamant that heretics should not be able to become Pope or be a head of religion in general. The easiest way to do it would probably be to make your lord spiritual an anti-Pope, then have him research cultural techs. If you get lucky, he will embrace heresy and ask you to do the same, changing his religion. But would that remove him from anti-Pope status? And what about the claim he gets on Papal States?
    Sounds like inevitable issues for the equally inevitable 1.1 patch, hah.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    Sounds like inevitable issues for the equally inevitable 1.1 patch, hah.
    Or it's already taken care of, and I just don't know it because I've been playing Skyrim lately.

    Besides, as I've said before, my preview copy didn't come with any documentation, so sometimes I'm not sure if something is WAD, bugged, or something they haven't decided whether they like or not. There may be a manual or strategy guide in development that spells all this out.
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