Announcing: The Firenze Mod (MMtG edition)

[Featauril]

I've always thought that where the game feels naked is in colonization and colonial involvement in India.

Will have to wait for it to come out to see how much (if any) improvement there was in this regard.

[Descri]

Probably the whole of the Teutonic Baltic coast region could be vulnerable to being converted to Polish culture, as German was just beginning to be the dominant culture in the region, as opposed to western slavic / Polish. The clinching factor that ought really permanently sever the region from returning into the Polish culture group would be conversion to protestantism while Poland remains Catholic.

In my opinion, there was no way that the Polish culture would ever dominate the Baltic. If we set aside the fact MMtG has no cultural conversions in Europe, by itself the
multicultural, and at parts heavily Germanized people of the Baltic coast kept their cultural differences for hundreds of years. There really is no way that could've happened.

[Ampersand]

While this is true, the region of the Teutonic Order was never truly controlled by Poland in a meaningful sense, after the Teutons moved in. There was a period where Prussia was a duchy under the Polish crown, but Ducal Prussia was still under Germanic leadership. What I'm suggesting is something that should only be possible in the opening decades of the game, between 1453 and 1500, and probably not after. I'm not suggesting Polish culture necessarily dominate the whole of the baltic coast, but the regions of Pomerelia and East Prussia that were in the process of being germanizised in this time frame.

[Robmel]

While this is true, the region of the Teutonic Order was never truly controlled by Poland in a meaningful sense, after the Teutons moved in. There was a period where Prussia was a duchy under the Polish crown, but Ducal Prussia was still under Germanic leadership. What I'm suggesting is something that should only be possible in the opening decades of the game, between 1453 and 1500, and probably not after. I'm not suggesting Polish culture necessarily dominate the whole of the baltic coast, but the regions of Pomerelia and East Prussia that were in the process of being germanizised in this time frame.

Only nobility and town population was germanized in that timeframe. Peasantry only in 18th century after the great northern plague.

[rybka]

Event Idea - what do the Danzig enthusiasts think about this?

Danzig - when conquered by Polish, an event which gives two choices
1. Autonomy gives some benefits to local RR, and national stability, ADM EFF, and trade. nobility and/or other factions as appropriate dislike it though.
2. not granting autonomy gives no benefits but enacts a settlement policy giving it the chance of becoming Polish over time

I think it may be too simple.
Gdansk basically bought its rights, war against TO lasted 13 years, POL would be much less successful without money from big Prussian cities. I would rather start the sequence with rebels coming to Polish king, which can promise them help and autonomy later in order to get money, also from time to time during war against TO, for rebels there was no way back. They have already supported Poland during 'The great war' 1410-1411, but they reminded in TO as a result of peace treaty, which showed they did not like it...
After the promise was made and the money was taken it should be almost 100% that POL gives autonomy to Gdansk (also for economic benefits).

As for cultural shifts, I would only make rural Pomerelia Polish at the beginning, I cant see Gdansk shifting its culture to Polish. If Gdansk and Warmia stay Prussian, the chance of accepting this culture is higher. While nobility of German origin could change (e.g. the great Banner of the Kingdom of Poland during the battle of Grunwald was carried by noble of German origin) I think ties of Prussian cities with Hansa were too strong.
Of course after 13 years war Poles came to gained areas since they were quite destroyed, most of the war was fought in Prussia, Polish settlers also settled some areas of south of East Prussia for the same reasons.

[Arizael]

We don't know how yet how to tolerance mechanics will work, but we can hope that entirely different than in EU3. Seeing things like BYZ insta tolerating turkish culture was giving me a headache.

Looking on screenshots Arbus posted another though came to my mind. The size of Silesia has been reduced by two provinces(Lausitz has been prolonged to silesian region, but dunno what culture it will be). This is definitly good thing as Silesia had way too many province. On the other that makes Bohemia IMO opinion too weak especialy when comparing it to the Austria.

Bohemia itself (excluding Lausitz and Silesia) is region big as the low countries or Austria. Yet there are only 4 czech provinces and 3 of them rather poor on the region standarts(situation in mod) making Bohemia 6 provinces country in total with 2prov vassal.
Also the capital province is for some insane reason directly accesible from Austria.

I hesitated to raise this issue, since I am czech myself and therefor it's obviously biased. So I would like to as if you guys think about the balance here, or if you had chance to betatest.

[k_merse]

Of course balance is always the first priority for us. And that was the reason for reducing Silesia to two provinces.
I did not play the game for a while (had to work on mapping stuff) but I remember seeing a very nicely performing Bohemia, so I don't think that there will be any problem.

[Yasko]

2 event ideas involving the Ottomans:

One chain (if)Ottomans conqures Kaffa and Crimea becoming vassal(in MMU it was impossible to make them vassals, diplomatically or via war since they were too big) of the Ottos chain. I can try to find backround info etc. for this one

Another chain for Ottoman conquest of Egypt. I.e. Portuguise finds the road to India, Medina and Mecca gets in danger of Christian attack, Mamluk inability to defend it, Ottoman involvement to protect the holy cities and war with Mamlukes. I can also try to find backround info for this one.

[birdboy2000]

Completely different part of the world, but I think filling up North America might be interesting. The native states would have to be fragmented tribes (except maybe the Iroquois as a tribal federation), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't make for a fun game. And for that matter I'd like a bunch of settler revolters there (Quebec, the thirteen colonies + Vermont, formable New England and of course a form USA decision, etc.) but that's more regional bias on my part.

[CJL78]

I think it may be too simple.
Gdansk basically bought its rights......

I think that may be too complex. A simplified event is sufficient, as long as it represents the general gist of Danzigian(?) autonomy. Remember we have to abstract and simplify everything as much as possible else we will be coding complex event chains for every city on the map and every minute event in the period.

2 event ideas involving the Ottomans:

1 One chain (if)Ottomans conqures Kaffa and Crimea becoming vassal(in MMU it was impossible to make them vassals, diplomatically or via war since they were too big) of the Ottos chain. I can try to find backround info etc. for this one

2 Another chain for Ottoman conquest of Egypt. I.e. Portuguise finds the road to India, Medina and Mecca gets in danger of Christian attack, Mamluk inability to defend it, Ottoman involvement to protect the holy cities and war with Mamlukes. I can also try to find backround info for this one.

Yeah, anyone who's played my submod knows I've already spent a lot of time on this. Ottoman performance was definitely the biggest area of modding in my MMU submod, despite the Firenze name. I will do a better job of it than in the submod. Specifically:

1. I had discussions with others about the best way to do this in MMU, so rest assured I will try to find some way for Genoa to (99% of the time) lose its holdings in the Black Sea (assuming Ottomans retain control of the Bosphorous and Dardanelles). One thing I would like to be able to mod if possible is the ability for certain straits to be blocked to enemies if you control both/all coasts (and perhaps only if there are certain buildings built there), this being the primary such place. It would allow the Ottomans to block off the Black Sea even in the face of a superior navy

2. Even though I will always love assistance from others (Marco Dandalo has given me a lot of great background info on Italy already, for example) this one I have covered. Like I said, I've spent alot of time on this. Rest assured, unless you read Arabic or Turkish I probably have all the background info I need here. BUT, given the very sophisticated war aim system that is still in progress (you guys have not even seen the half of it yet), I am feeling confident I can merely mod a relatively simple (but suitable) war aim and a simple event or faction request to give the war aim for this situation, with probably another simple event to help the Ottomans consolidate the conquest (i.e. some level of cores)

Of course this is all assuming the MM team does not do such a fantastic job that this becomes unnecessary in the first place which is very possible!

[Yasko]

Rest assured, unless you read Arabic or Turkish I probably have all the background info I need here.

Turkish, and looots of books about Ottomans at home. Especially the period of stagnation is interesting. Creating events for that period, without "fixed dates, etc could be interesting. The gradual decentralization, power struggle of the various sehzades, Celali uprisings etc. etc.

[CJL78]

Especially the period of stagnation is interesting. Creating events for that period, without "fixed dates, etc.

Really, well in that case some help with emulating the stagnation, particularly things like the capitulations will be appreciated!

[thedarkclown85]

This sounds as a great mod and somthing that I will definatly be following in the future! For me one of the most fun part of every game of EU/Magna Mundi/Victoria etc. is to form new countries, and I would really like to see more country specific decissions as well so it sounds like just a mod for me!

Off the top of my head I have two ideas for countries that I would like to see added: Hannover and Westphalia both German nations. They both exsist as tags in EU3 at least already but as far as I know there where no realy way of forming them or playing them without choosing dates where they already existed. Not sure what the conditions for formation would be but im sure you could think of some nice ones!

EDIT: Also a decission to form Arabia or at least somekind of greater arabian nation would be really nice and encourage people to play in that area!

[Arizael]

Really, well in that case some help with emulating the stagnation, particularly things like the capitulations will be appreciated!

Well the stagnation should be simply simulated by ... stagnation

From DD's we know few ways of making sure the Ottos will stagnate at some point - lowering breaktrough chances, increasement of corruption, lwering AE, or as was tradition in the mod remove manifest destiny modifier/add negative modifier.

I would probably focus on the corruption aspect. Major historic reason were: weakening monarch power and various parasite factions (Jannisaries at the time of stagnation).

[gabor]

A simplified event is sufficient, as long as it represents the general gist of Danzigian(?) autonomy. Remember we have to abstract and simplify everything as much as possible else we will be coding complex event chains for every city on the map and every minute event in the period.

Fully understandable. I have to admit it's difficult to speculate not knowing how the game will handle these specific concerns.

Of course this is all assuming the MM team does not do such a fantastic job that this becomes unnecessary in the first place which is very possible!

Exactly!

For me one of the most fun part of every game of EU/Magna Mundi/Victoria etc. is to form new countries, and I would really like to see more country specific decissions as well so it sounds like just a mod for me!

Agreed. Country formation, along with getting a new tag, makes for a great mid- (or even end-) game goal. I think if the number of tags is an issue (hope not), the mod could come up with more ways to get the same tag. Like, say, different ways to become Italy.

[CJL78]

This sounds as a great mod and somthing that I will definatly be following in the future! For me one of the most fun part of every game of EU/Magna Mundi/Victoria etc. is to form new countries, and I would really like to see more country specific decissions as well so it sounds like just a mod for me!

Off the top of my head I have two ideas for countries that I would like to see added: Hannover and Westphalia both German nations. They both exsist as tags in EU3 at least already but as far as I know there where no realy way of forming them or playing them without choosing dates where they already existed. Not sure what the conditions for formation would be but im sure you could think of some nice ones!

EDIT: Also a decission to form Arabia or at least somekind of greater arabian nation would be really nice and encourage people to play in that area!

Hannover, Westphalia, and Arabia were all formable in the mod, and will be in the game as well, I'm sure. I'm not sure Westphalia was/is formable by the player though, since I think it has to be released by a non-German revolutionary state iirc

Agreed. Country formation, along with getting a new tag, makes for a great mid- (or even end-) game goal. I think if the number of tags is an issue (hope not), the mod could come up with more ways to get the same tag. Like, say, different ways to become Italy.

there will be different ways to form Italy

Well the stagnation should be simply simulated by ... stagnation

From DD's we know few ways of making sure the Ottos will stagnate at some point - lowering breaktrough chances, increasement of corruption, lwering AE, or as was tradition in the mod remove manifest destiny modifier/add negative modifier.

I would probably focus on the corruption aspect. Major historic reason were: weakening monarch power and various parasite factions (Jannisaries at the time of stagnation).

the thing i don't like is giving the Ottos arbitrary modifiers for their rise and decline like in the mod. In the mod also there were AI-only events that the Ottos would get if they had the rise or decline modifiers, respectively, such as getting cores on Balkan provinces they neighbored if they didn't have the decline modifier. I want to model it on actual reasons for stagnation. with the war aim and faction systems now I think we can do that, such as the Hegemonic military faction (Janissaries) corruption and resisting change. but for example a country-specific thing I want to mod is the capitulations causing financial problems in the long run. but i'm not sure how to model the capitulations using events and that's something Yasko could probably help me out with. Marco Dandalo also suggested giving Venice and Genoa some mercantile interaction with the Ottomans and that could probably be tied to event chains about capitulations, and extended to more Euros than just VEN and GEN

In other words my idea here would be, at best, another complex "mini-game" like the Barbary pirates where Western states try to sign capitulation treaties with the Ottomans for trade benefits or something, and the more the Ottos sign and the longer they go on the more tax revenue the Ottos lose. In the late game, the Otto Sultan should be trying to get rid of things like these and the Janissaries and encountering resistance from the factions, while trying to keep provinces from revolting. But there are other things besides the capitulations that could be included, that's just one that I have some ideas about.

Yasko, if you have any ideas or info about this stuff, shoot me a PM

[Marco Dandolo]

Marco Dandalo also suggested giving Venice and Genoa some mercantile interaction with the Ottomans and that could probably be tied to event chains about capitulations, and extended to more Euros than just VEN and GEN.

My consideration was a inclusion of the decision to found (or have) merchant quarters. As many may know, they were cities in a city, which had many similiarities to the jewish congregations in europe, seperated in many ways from the city per se with own rights and an elected podestà, consul or bailò. Pera is a famous example for this, because of the old ties between Constantinople and the merchand-republics. For Venice, the quarter in Alexandria (Mameluks) and for Genoa the quarters in Spain (first Sevilla, later Cadiz) had also an outstanding position and a centre of interaction between the republics and the empires; the genoese bankers gave credit to Spain, and the genoese merchands were a dominating power in trade; of 87 trade houses, the majority of 27 were in their hands, and until 18th century the Ligurians were deeply involved in the trade structure of the iberian powerhouse.

The Wiki-articles of Galata and Beyoğlu may give a little hind regarding the interesting relationship between Genoa, Venice, their "colonies" and the Ottoman empire. Little but fine details of a very ambivalent contact which is unfortunately not very known today.

Only some notes to end my existence as a grey eminence.

@CJL: I'm still very interested in this project. I have here some events and decisions related to this topic, but I'm thinking to redo it from the scratch. I had some new ideas regarding some historical events including this feature, and if you want, I would be glad to help you and writing them for this mod. Unfortunately, it could be that I'm a bit occupied in January, so I don't have much time for modding, but in February I have some free time to spend.

[CJL78]

My consideration was a inclusion of the decision to found (or have) merchant quarters.

i know, but i take your ideas and run off to combine them with others Rather than this be exclusively a decision given to the Italians, I would make it an interactive event chain between them and the Ottomans

@CJL: I'm still very interested in this project. I have here some events and decisions related to this topic, but I'm thinking to redo it from the scratch. I had some new ideas regarding some historical events including this feature, and if you want, I would be glad to help you and writing them for this mod. Unfortunately, it could be that I'm a bit occupied in January, so I don't have much time for modding, but in February I have some free time to spend.

hey no worries, don't get too excited! the game still doesn't come out for like 5 months or so

[Kerry]

hey no worries, don't get too excited! the game still doesn't come out for like 5 months or so

5 month? The FAQs still say it's Q1 2012.

[PhroX]

To add to what others have said about forming new nations, depending if and how MMtG differs from the mod, this could be an area which could be improved on - not just in number, but mechanically. I really like what you did with Italy in your submod - not only did you give multiple ways to do it, but there were negative consequences for doing so, such as war with the HRE. I'd love it if you expanded these ideas to other nations, particularly those which, like Italy, you can form while only controlling a relatively small (compared to the total size of the nation) number of key provinces (ones like GB, where you basically have to hold the entire nation, are reasonably OK as is). I've always felt it a bit odd that no-one objects to me claiming the crown of somewhere like Germany or Hindustan while only owning a part of the nation and then, on top of that, effectively being able to take the rest for free, thanks to the CB from the cores. Maybe, assuming it's still there, tying it into a system like the way in which you increase government ranks - having to get the approval of your neighbours, with it becoming easier the more of the nation you control?