Announcing: The Firenze Mod (MMtG edition)

[CJL78]

The Firenze Mod

for Magna Mundi

As a beta-tester for MMtG, I hope to be able to release a v1.0 of my mod, a successor to my Firenze Submod of MMU, as soon as the game is released.

The primary focus of my mod will be adding more countries and more provinces in certain areas all around the globe as well as adding country or region-specific events, decisions, unit types, etc. (as the team prefers to make universal mechanics and features as much as possible, which I agree is a perfect philosophy for developing a game that tries to represent the whole world; but a little country-specific flavor here and there is perfect for a mod). A secondary focus will be adding new features such as diplomatic options or upgrading units, etc... I will also work on fixing any bugs or coming up with mod solutions to any balance issues that arise. (Hopefully, we can eliminate as many bugs as possible before commercial release, but no game is perfect!)

Obviously Florence with the ability of any Tuscan city-state to form the Grand Duchy of Tuscany (the original inspiration for my submod) will be one such addition, but I'd like to get feedback from you on countries (not provinces for the moment, because that is still not final anyway) that you feel should be added to the game.

Keep in mind I will focus on the 1453 Grand Campaign start, and I will only include nations I feel are worthy (i.e., no San Marino) and can add to the gameplay and not destroy balance (i.e., no splitting Austria into Carinthia, Tyrolia, etc) The Zaporizhian Sich, as mentioned in a thread here, though not present at 1453 is a good example of what I'm looking for.

Also, ideas on specific events, event chains, decisions, or units that specific countries or cultures can have access to, that will also add to gameplay (EU3's Venetian Arsenal and Prussian Military Reforms, for instance). Again, these should add to gameplay by helping promote the specific country's historical strengths or weaknesses. For example, I am currently considering if the Order of St. Stephen would be worthy enough for Tuscany to have a decision to create it.



Florence and Grand Duchy of Tuscany decision as seen in my MMU submod and AAR

[ubik]

Congrats CJ!

I am extremely happy what you have seen from the game so far already prompted you to involve yourself so much with it as in the creation of your own ambitious mod. I can only wish you come up with different/better systems to add value to the product and to build a community around it!

[Marco Dandolo]

Salve CJL78!

One and a half year ago, I made a Mod, which was haevily focussed on the italian penisular and the scrabble between Genoa and Venice. I used it only for personal purposes and several MP-sessions with a good friend of mine. Like your mod, it had Florence in the beginning instead of Tuscany (with the lovely red lily on silver), and a decision to form Tuscany; but also one for Sardinia-Piemonte, Two Sicilies and the Regnum Italiae (and three different Italies, of which was one a federal model like the Lega Lombarda was). I gave also to every italian country some flavor decisions.

Some suggestions for decisions: the venetian spynet was one of the most advanced in europe, the banca of San Giorgio was an important genoese institution which had heavy influence for the history of Genoa. There were recurring events for some city states - the Palio for Siena, the Calcio for Firenze, the Carnival for Venice - and I made it also possible, that one state could invent the first opera (I had musicians and composers as advisors). The first opera was a major event, like the reformation, after which it was possible to build an opera house in the capital. Countries, which neighboured countries which had invented the opara, could also build an opera house (which gave prestige and lower revolt risk). In the end, you could see how the opera spreaded from Italy to Spain and northern Germany.

It's more a flavour thing, but if you're interested, maybe I can search for the files.

[CJL78]

wow thanks for the sticky ubik!

Salve CJL78!
...but also one for Sardinia-Piemonte, .

Regarding this, in my submod I simply made a decision for forming Kingdom of Sardinia, so that any northern Italian monarchy (not just Savoy) could claim kingdom status; this also recycles the Sardinia tag.

Regarding the rest, sure send me what you did. I don't necessarily need files but just a description of your features and how they worked, etc... thanks!

Also since you know so much about Italy I'd like your opinion on a couple issues:

1. what you think about making Lucca, Montferrat, perhaps even Saluzzo or the Malatesta as playable countries at 1453 in terms of balance/number of new provinces that would be required

2. how you would go about creating an event that would create the Duchy of Parma should a suitable situation allow it (what would be realistic circumstances that would allow Parma to be created via event). For this, in my submod I created another "Pope's Bastard" event that created Parma as a papal vassal, but Parma is rarely if ever conquered by the Papal States. (You may know this tag is in the game, but can only be played by starting after it was created in RL timeline, it cannot be created from a 1453 start)

3. how would you go about creating an event or other incentive for Florence to annex Siena in order to form Tuscany (this was a problem for the AI in my submod, as taking Siena causes HRE illegal province problems. For this, I did write an event that would cause a foreign, non-Italian power that owned a Tuscan province to sell it to a Tuscan state that owns at least two provinces, if any existed, that also gave the Tuscan state a core on that province. i.e., historical Spain sells Siena to Florence, but foreign powers never annex Siena in MMU so that was useless)

4. What would be appropriate conditions for an HRE Italian state to seize the Iron Crown and claim himself King of Italy and what would be appropriate consequences of that decision (in terms of reputation, Emperor's/other countries' reactions? (I was not satisfied with this decision in my submod) What would be appropriate for a non HRE state?(Sicilies)

[Marco Dandolo]

1. I know, the balancing issue is a two-edged sword, but I personally included in my mod Saluzzo and Montferrat, for the reason, that I always felt Savoy/Piemonte was "to weak". Savoy had several territorial changes from the 15th to the 18th century in northern Italy, making the principalty/duchy more oriented to Italy then France. The annexation of Montferrat was an important issue for the rulers and if we think of the Mantuan sucession war, Montferrat had for each party an important role. In EUIII, all this very important changes are not visible, Savoy remains until the foundation of Sardinia-Piemonte in it's same shape. I'm not so sure about Saluzzo, but I think Montferrat has it's allure.

Same for Lucca. Maybe it is only a little country, but if we consider, that it was one of the few states in Italy which saved the independence against the french and austrians, this republic has its merits too. It would also strenghten the "tuscan faction", as we have only three provinces.

Malatesta... I'm not really sure. The Romagna was a rather fractured land, divided between the pope, Venice, several communes... Montferrat and Lucca are in comparision two territories and much more "organic". I won't deny it, but if there are two states which should be on the italian map, I strongly commend Lucca and Montferrat.

2. That's an interesting approach to resemble history, but maybe it is also an idea, that there should be also an event which gives first only a core on Parma, so that there is a possibility to form it. My first Idea would be, that a Land without a core on it can release it, when taken. So, if the territory is taken by - for example - Venice in the Lombard War, this could trigger an Event, in which the player/ai can decide whether to take it or release as a vassal; I don't think that Milan would have released this territory as an independent duchy, because it was one of the lombard core-lands. But maybe pressure of the italian factions or the empire can force a country without claim toward such a step.

3. Hmm, after all, I'm a fan of the Grandduchy, but we must also remember, that the annexation of Siena was after all a shock for the italians. Florence lost some reputation, because there was rumor, that Florence made this war only for the conquest of Siena - directly or indirectly. I'm not sure, if the current situation needs a correction, but let me consider it for a while.

4. I have some ideas, unfortunately I send you the message before reading your post here.

[Tapochki]

I've recently come across THIS wikipedia page, and noted the Avar Khaganate, which exists in the game's entire timeframe, if wiki is to be believed.

I do not believe they've been implemented in the game quite yet. This might be worth looking into.

Also, these guys may not be worthy of statehood, but are definitely event-worthy. Maybe a decision to partition it earlier than happened historically? As a smuggler state, that'd be non-trivial amount of cash for confiscation! Maybe represent them resisting as a rebel stack? Either way they are very relevant to your mod's focus.

[Sarmatia1871]

Not wishing to be a damp squib, but would it not be better for beta-testers to devote their Magna Mundi time to locating and ironing out potential bugs in the complex planned vanilla game, rather than add further layers of complexity themselves?

[LoK-y-Yo]

Not wishing to be a damp squib, but would it not be better for beta-testers to devote their Magna Mundi time to locating and ironing out potential bugs in the complex planned vanilla game, rather than add further layers of complexity themselves?

As long as it doesn't affect his beta duties, why not? every body has a life besides MM betatesting, and free time. If he wants to use more of his free time, it is up to him, and we should cheer him to do his best in both.

[CJL78]

Not wishing to be a damp squib, but would it not be better for beta-testers to devote their Magna Mundi time to locating and ironing out potential bugs in the complex planned vanilla game, rather than add further layers of complexity themselves?

at this point, all i am doing for the mod is thinking about it.

but thank you, I'll be sure to take your advice into consideration.

[ubik]

CJ has done a great work over the last 5 months on the game. If he takes now the mantle of the first serious modder for Magna Mundi he is just furthering his contribution for the team and for the end users in fact. I just wish him the best of luck and very good naturedly hope he can fix several unknown (for now!) design mistakes I made. That would be the greatest reward possible I would take out of this project!

[CJL78]

unknown (for now!) design mistakes I made. !

Yes I have already found 1, a long time ago: Florence does not exist!

[ubik]

Yes I have already found 1, a long time ago: Florence does not exist!

Oh c'mon! I am pretty sure you found LOTS and when you share the fixes/new things with the community everybody is going to download your mod!

[Arizael]

Well I am, since CJLS submod raised MMU to MMP standarts, so my expectations on this project are quite high.

I guess the mod will focus mainly on Italy, since The Game is coming out totaly balanced and without any bugs to fix (). I have though about few things i wold like to point out.

1) Beware of adding too much provinces to northen Italy. Dunno how the game, but the mod had realy a lot of them- and all were very rich. Adding few more, would probably make juggernaut from anybody who would unite that region.

2) What about the question of the empire and Roma? It would be very interesting if let's say protestant italian emperor conquered Roma. Adding Rome to the empire would make it truly holy roman - and should bring a lot of imperial prestige.

3) Possibility of forming Italy and staying in the empire, even if you are not the emperor. It would be quite hardcore challenge, since you would probably have to be on good terms with it and owning a lot of cored provinces.

[Descri]

2) What about the question of the empire and Roma? It would be very interesting if let's say protestant italian emperor conquered Roma. Adding Rome to the empire would make it truly holy roman - and should bring a lot of imperial prestige.

It was always interesting to me the whole plethora of options of a non Catholic ruler ruling Rome. I do not know if it has been dealt with in MMtG, but if it hasn't been dealt with this could be a great part of your mod.

[gabor]

As a beta-tester for MMtG, I hope to be able to release a v1.0 of my mod, a successor to my Firenze Submod of MMU, as soon as the game is released.

Great to hear that! I have as high hopes for your mod as for the game itself. And your Firenze Submod for MMU is well worth recommending.


It is hard to suggest anything not knowing how things will work in the game. But I'd suggest some things regarding POL-LIT.

> For once, doesn't Danzig deserve its own city-province, like other Hansa cities? The MMthemod province was more the countryside + the city. And imo the importance of Danzig justifies a seperate prov, not mentioning it was completely different from the rular areas surrounding it.
> I'd expect POL-LIT being more active about dismantling TO. The war, which put an end to the TO's power, broke out barely months into the game and the discontent within the very TO lands (especially rich cities) had been simmering for some time. Imo it was as inevitable or in-the-making as early Portuguese exploration and more likely than Burgundian succession.
> Danzig, if 'freed' from the TO's control should strive to retain some sort of autonomy, whoever its new owner/protector would be.

> POL-LIT union was quite new, should be more dynamic imo. It was like beneficial from the both partners' nobility's perspective. But there was a lot to negotiate (through threats, promises, concessions, incentives etc)

> POL still had some claims on Siliesian culture lands (some of them stll ruled, like Masovia, by the former Polish dynasty, actually the senior branch) and the duchies of Pomerania. So should POL gain some land there (or even possibly the prov of Neumark) it should have a chance to hold control over these lands in some sort of negotiations with the HRE. (In the mod it just gives them back straight away, having previousl fought hard to get them.) After all over lengthy periods before the game starts POL controlled these areas more or less directly. This could of course jeopardise the union with LIT. But the whole tilt to the East was still relatively new in Polish politics.

> The power of nobility and its unwillingnes to reform, as well as the decentralisation of the Commonwealth lands should be portrayed somehow, and pose a challenge for the player.

> I don't think POL should start with a religious NI, neither tolrent or intolerant one, not in the 15th century. It's the reformation which led to huge debates in this regard. At first it seemed the tolerant stance would prevail, but with the advent of the counter-reformation a CAD-like attitude won. I know POL's starting NIs have been an issue for the devs of the mod, and they changed a lot, but a strictly religious one would be a poor choice imo.

[CJL78]

Thanks for all the interest so far without having done anything yet!

I've recently come across THIS wikipedia page, and noted the Avar Khaganate, which exists in the game's entire timeframe, if wiki is to be believed.

possibility. probably too small/influential. would need some more reliable and in depth research than that wiki stub...

Also, these guys may not be worthy of statehood, but are definitely event-worthy. Maybe a decision to partition it earlier than happened historically? As a smuggler state, that'd be non-trivial amount of cash for confiscation! Maybe represent them resisting as a rebel stack? Either way they are very relevant to your mod's focus.

I want to be clear that my focus is NOT Italy, but to focus on specific areas all over the world that can add more unique detail to unique areas, not just Italy. Or in other words, my aim is to present a mod that presents a fun experience for any country, just as the game is; I'm only trying to add more uniqueness and flavor elements to specific countries/religions/cultures/regions.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions.

Well I am, since CJLS submod raised MMU to MMP standarts, so my expectations on this project are quite high.

This is at best overly generous pandering, and at worst outright blatant falsehoods But thanks!

I guess the mod will focus mainly on Italy, since The Game is coming out totaly balanced and without any bugs to fix (). I have though about few things i wold like to point out.

1) Beware of adding too much provinces to northen Italy. Dunno how the game, but the mod had realy a lot of them- and all were very rich. Adding few more, would probably make juggernaut from anybody who would unite that region.

Absolutely. Any area that has provinces added will see a reduction in their prosperity, as far as balance determines. Balance will always be on my mind, and there will probably be province adjustments and additions all over, not just Italy. Also I will not be going overboard, IMHO, with provinces, like for example MEIOU. For example, for Italy I'm currently settling on adding Lucca, Montferrat, Padua, and splitting Bologna and the Romagna, and Urbino and Ancona, each into two. so, five more provinces total in Italy most likely, and more in France as well.

2) What about the question of the empire and Roma? It would be very interesting if let's say protestant italian emperor conquered Roma. Adding Rome to the empire would make it truly holy roman - and should bring a lot of imperial prestige.

What sort of things do you think should happen in that situation?

3) Possibility of forming Italy and staying in the empire, even if you are not the emperor. It would be quite hardcore challenge, since you would probably have to be on good terms with it and owning a lot of cored provinces.

3) not likely to happen, for historical and gameplay reasons. same reason you can't form Germany while in the HRE (and if you can in MMtG that will be removed )

Great to hear that! I have as high hopes for your mod as for the game itself. And your Firenze Submod for MMU is well worth recommending.

1)

It is hard to suggest anything not knowing how things will work in the game. But I'd suggest some things regarding POL-LIT.

> For once, doesn't Danzig deserve its own city-province, like other Hansa cities? The MMthemod province was more the countryside + the city. And imo the importance of Danzig justifies a seperate prov, not mentioning it was completely different from the rular areas surrounding it.
then what to do with the countryside?
> I'd expect POL-LIT being more active about dismantling TO. The war, which put an end to the TO's power, broke out barely months into the game and the discontent within the very TO lands (especially rich cities) had been simmering for some time. Imo it was as inevitable or in-the-making as early Portuguese exploration and more likely than Burgundian succession.
For sure, I agree.
> Danzig, if 'freed' from the TO's control should strive to retain some sort of autonomy, whoever its new owner/protector would be.
are you suggesting events similar to the Genoese/Venetian ones when those cities are conquered? and/or re-adding the Danzig country tag?
> POL-LIT union was quite new, should be more dynamic imo. It was like beneficial from the both partners' nobility's perspective. But there was a lot to negotiate (through threats, promises, concessions, incentives etc)
I think with the new Elective Monarchy gov't, and MM's PU mechanics, this is covered. but I can look into it. What about the PU events and modifiers (before and after inheritance) in the mod were not enough to represent POL-LIT in your opinion?
> POL still had some claims on Siliesian culture lands (some of them stll ruled, like Masovia, by the former Polish dynasty, actually the senior branch) and the duchies of Pomerania. So should POL gain some land there (or even possibly the prov of Neumark) it should have a chance to hold control over these lands in some sort of negotiations with the HRE. (In the mod it just gives them back straight away, having previousl fought hard to get them.) After all over lengthy periods before the game starts POL controlled these areas more or less directly. This could of course jeopardise the union with LIT. But the whole tilt to the East was still relatively new in Polish politics.
France and Denmark and others also gave territory back in the mod that they should not. This is being considered with the new game as a general issue. We'll see how it turns out. Would you suggest some kind of cores (remember there are now 3 levels of cores) on Silesia or Pomerania for the claims?
> The power of nobility and its unwillingnes to reform, as well as the decentralisation of the Commonwealth lands should be portrayed somehow, and pose a challenge for the player.
another area that could well be covered through the new mechanics, in the nobility faction, but let's see how it works for POL-LIT specifically
> I don't think POL should start with a religious NI, neither tolrent or intolerant one, not in the 15th century. It's the reformation which led to huge debates in this regard. At first it seemed the tolerant stance would prevail, but with the advent of the counter-reformation a CAD-like attitude won. I know POL's starting NIs have been an issue for the devs of the mod, and they changed a lot, but a strictly religious one would be a poor choice imo.
A valid idea, but another we'll have to wait and see. You can pick a new Tradition at the start of the game right now, so you can still pick a religious one right off the bat. Personally, I don't like the structure of the religious or "Cultural" NIs/Country Traditions either in EU, the mod, or MMtG as it is now (in that it is too simplistic and/or arbitrary; hard to describe my feelings on this), and I want to do something radically different with regards to religious NIs/Traditions in my mod, but I'm not sure what yet.

Again, thanks for all the interest and compliments and reply with more ideas or reactions

[rybka]

I agree with points made by Gabor.

About Danzig.
It could be made a separate province. I would make it German (Prussian?) culture, one could endlessly argue whether Germans were majority at that time, but the fact is that the richest and most influencial ones were of German origin. In this sense it was different than areas around, which were mostly Polish (or say Kashubian which originated from a slavic tribe). I would make Tczew a capital of the rular province. Gansk was not a capital of Polish voivodship due to its autonomy anyway.

About wars with TO, I guess a special event sequence would have to be written, I could help.
- for POL-> Prussian cities such as Gdansk, Elblag, Torun and nobility as well start negotiations with the king asking for his protection, if accepted revolt starts in TO, POL declares war on TO. If peace is made and POL captures Gdansk (if is a separate province) it should get modifier such as autonomous estates in the mod, Warmia could also get a special modifier since it was a bishopry, strangly catholic bishop of Warmia made a deal with Polish king against catholic TO.
A king with high ADM skill could try to cancel Gdansk rights, but then Gdansk should revolt, which should have high impact on Polish economy especially if POL does not own any other sea coast provinces. It happened during the rule of king Stefan Bathory (end of XVI century). Eventually Gdansk used cash and its rights were confirmed.

About Silesia, first of all I would make Silesian provinces separate duchies, the historical setup in 1453 was the following:
- Wroclaw was part of BOH
- Legnica, Glogow, Opole, Raciborz were separate duchies.
This was supposed to be the setup of MMthe mod when map of Eatern Europe was redone, but tags were cut due to performace issues. Maybe even the team has all the files for them already, I have seen screenshot of such a map, when MMthe mod was on Terranova server. Such a setup would also help BOH to annex them one by one as happened historically. It never happened in my games in the mod with 4-province big Silesia.
As for POL and Silesia, at game start POL should not have cores on them, but after it annexed some of Silesian provinces POL somehow could use the fact that Silesia was part of POL ones, the last Piast king (Kazimierz the Great) until his death (1370) tried to get Silesia back and fought several wars. Ones Jagiellons became kings, POL shifted its politics more to the east.
However, if POL gets stronger in the west LIT should become unhappy, in general LIT did not want POL to grow stronger, it was one of the reasons LIT did not join war against TO in 1454.

I played your mod for MMtM, thanks I enjoyed it!

[Arizael]

About Danzig: I see a potential for making it a cultural-swapable province. The richest majority was surely German, but under prolonged Polish rule (without autonomy guarantee) this could likely change.

Poland, should go right after the TO at the start of the game, probably with cores on everything but Osterprussen itself.

Silesia: The number of Silesian provinces has changed, maybe on my behalf (there were more silesian culture provinces that actualy czech ones), so the situation will be quite different here. The polish claims however were nullified by emperor Charles IV, who made them integral part of Bohemian crown, i also think (but not sure right now) that he made this decision with approval from the poles.

[CJL78]

Event Idea - what do the Danzig enthusiasts think about this?

Danzig - when conquered by Polish, an event which gives two choices
1. Autonomy gives some benefits to local RR, and national stability, ADM EFF, and trade. nobility and/or other factions as appropriate dislike it though.
2. not granting autonomy gives no benefits but enacts a settlement policy giving it the chance of becoming Polish over time

[Ampersand]

Probably the whole of the Teutonic Baltic coast region could be vulnerable to being converted to Polish culture, as German was just beginning to be the dominant culture in the region, as opposed to western slavic / Polish. The clinching factor that ought really permanently sever the region from returning into the Polish culture group would be conversion to protestantism while Poland remains Catholic.