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A small map look update

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I'm sure itll be fairly easy to mod the forests to stand out more on this map (darken them some) but I'm curious about terrain height.

Right now only the impassable mountains (Carpathians, Alps, Pyrenees) seem to be shown but I'd really like heightmap to be visible like it is in Victoria2. And aside from the graphics side of things, the Bohemian mountains were commanding heights in Central Europe and certainly had military significance. I wonder how that's modeled in CK2?
 
Looks alright. Only problem is that some of the smaller country names are a bit smudged. Particularly Baltic Pagan tribes. Although I still think you really need to give Harold Godwinson his moustache and William the Conquer and the rest of the Normans undercuts and no facial hair.
 
EU3 taught us mapmodes are never finalized. I think a dozen were added in 5.1 (!) I dont really use them yet mind you (because I keep forgetting they exist) but it shows that its a concept that can be extended indefinitely if the need arises.

However I guess for initial release What-we-see-is-what-we-get at this point.
 
Regarding Mecklemburg and Pomerania, anyone knows off hand when the pagans there were replaced by god-fearing HRE nobility historically? I'm curious when it occurs during the time frame. Its a bit odd because I'm looking at some 1000AD HRE maps and they show most of that land being already HRE territory, so I'm confused :) I assume if we start a game at later dates, the NE borders will be pretty close to what we have at the EU3 start?
 
Alerias said:
Regarding Mecklemburg and Pomerania, anyone knows off hand when the pagans there were replaced by god-fearing HRE nobility historically? I'm curious when it occurs during the time frame. Its a bit odd because I'm looking at some 1000AD HRE maps and they show most of that land being already HRE territory, so I'm confused :) I assume if we start a game at later dates, the NE borders will be pretty close to what we have at the EU3 start?
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Mid 12th century. What you see on some maps is probably indication of being tributary, not part of HRE. You can learn more here.
 
I see that the font still has problems with odd characters; most prominently in Münster, where the ü is pushed down, but everywhere where an umlaut is used. I haven't seen it in any of these screenshots, but Victoria II also has a problem with the Q being pushed up to accomodate for its little hook. It's hardly a major complaint, but playing Vicky II in French made Amérique look a bit wonky... And with Lübeck, Münster, Osnabrück, Köln, Göttingen and Lüneburg all so close to each other in this CKII screenshot, it looks a tad sloppy.
 
Alerias said:
Regarding Mecklemburg and Pomerania, anyone knows off hand when the pagans there were replaced by god-fearing HRE nobility historically? I'm curious when it occurs during the time frame. Its a bit odd because I'm looking at some 1000AD HRE maps and they show most of that land being already HRE territory, so I'm confused :) I assume if we start a game at later dates, the NE borders will be pretty close to what we have at the EU3 start?
Click to expand...

On most early HRE maps the Wends in the north are shown as within its borders as the chiefs of the region in 800s and 900s were forced to pay tribute to the King of East Francia and early HRE. In some maps Ive seen even the Avars and Hungarians are shown within Imperial territory. Gradually as feudalism became more significant Catholic rulers began to disregard Pagan tributaries as vassals very quickly.
 
Thank you for all the historical info. Looks like I've have to Christianize these territories early on in my first HRE game to make sure that the Empire has nice eastern borders before I get to the serious business of the conquest of France. Aachen's natural borders in the west must be the Pyrenees once again!

Wonder how difficult it is to conquer all of France to recreate Charlemagne's empire.. We'll find out soon enough :)
 
thrashing mad said:
Concerning posted screenshots - may I suggest some more consistency when it comes to names of Pagan tribes? We have Pruthenians, Yatviags, Curonians, Zemigalians, etc - perhaps it would be better to use same form for Lithuania, Galindia and Pommerania? Oh, and 'Tribe of Mecklenburg' from CK1 sounds just awful - could you rename it to 'Obotrites' please? :)
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That's not as easy as it looks.

The Tribe of Mecklemberg holds the title Duke of Mecklemberg,which means if you just change the name"Mecklemberg" to Obotrite the title Catholic Crusaders create after conquering the Obotrites will be "Duke of the Obotrite."

Granted adding a new titular Duke-tag, and replacing MECK with it for Obotrite leaders wouldn't be too hard, but it runs into the problem that if our friend the Count of Lubeck will have two Duke-titles when/if he regains the Obotrite throne.

Nick
 
Nick B II said:
That's not as easy as it looks.

The Tribe of Mecklemberg holds the title Duke of Mecklemberg,which means if you just change the name"Mecklemberg" to Obotrite the title Catholic Crusaders create after conquering the Obotrites will be "Duke of the Obotrite."

Granted adding a new titular Duke-tag, and replacing MECK with it for Obotrite leaders wouldn't be too hard, but it runs into the problem that if our friend the Count of Lubeck will have two Duke-titles when/if he regains the Obotrite throne.

Nick
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Are you sure they use same system of titles? In CK1 there was, to give an example, 'Tribe of Livonians' and Christian 'Duchy of Livonia', or 'Tribe of Cumans' and 'Kingdom of Cumania'. I believe it's the same in CK2, and once Christians conquer Curonians, they'll establish 'Duchy of Curonia/Kurland' rather than 'Duchy of Curonians'. Same with Muslims - Sultanate of Seljuk Turks didn't even have Christian equivalent.
 
thrashing mad said:
Are you sure they use same system of titles? In CK1 there was, to give an example, 'Tribe of Livonians' and Christian 'Duchy of Livonia', or 'Tribe of Cumans' and 'Kingdom of Cumania'. I believe it's the same in CK2, and once Christians conquer Curonians, they'll establish 'Duchy of Curonia/Kurland' rather than 'Duchy of Curonians'. Same with Muslims - Sultanate of Seljuk Turks didn't even have Christian equivalent.
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It was possible to get a claim on those titles by event. OTOH regarding the Lübeck example, instead of giving the Nakonid a claim on the tribal duchy, they could be given the claims on the counties and baronies.
 
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thrashing mad said:
Are you sure they use same system of titles? In CK1 there was, to give an example, 'Tribe of Livonians' and Christian 'Duchy of Livonia', or 'Tribe of Cumans' and 'Kingdom of Cumania'. I believe it's the same in CK2, and once Christians conquer Curonians, they'll establish 'Duchy of Curonia/Kurland' rather than 'Duchy of Curonians'. Same with Muslims - Sultanate of Seljuk Turks didn't even have Christian equivalent.
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They did in CK1.

Several of the pagan tribes used titles that were on the map, and most of the Emirs in Iberia did too. The way you could tell whether a heathen would have to be destroyed for you to create the local Duke-title was two-fold: if the heathen's CoA was identical to the Christian CoA, and his title-name was identical to the Duchy he was probably using the Duke-title in the map-files. Both are the case for the Tribe of Mecklemberg in CK2.

It's possible there's an uncreatable Duke-title for all those guys in CK2, and the clues I'm basing this on from CK1 are no longer relevant. But I doubt it.

Ruwaard's proposal makes sense, and will almost certainly be adopted for the inevitable CK2 Improvement Project mod. But I'm not sure the devs will have enough time to do it themselves between now and February.

Nick
 
Ruwaard said:
It was possible to even get a claim on those titles by event. OTOH regarding the Lübeck example, instead of giving the Nakonid a claim on the tribal duchy, they could be given the claims on the counties and baronies.
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Or vassalage.

In one of my favorite games my King acquired every single Baltic Pagan King-title. I made pretty liberal use of a bug to get it,but it was fun as hell.

Nick
 
I think somewhere Johan or Darkrenown said they were trying to minimize titular titles held by non-Christians to prevent title silliness in various regions. From what I've seen so far, they have gotten pretty far with it. Most of the titles in the Baltic are de jure. And most of the titles in Iberia are de jure. A few big name realms in the east are titular, if only so you can fight the Seljuk Turks, not the Turkish Mesopotamians. :)

But there is an important difference in CK2 mechanics than in CK1 mechanics that makes this less tedious. First, you only annex duchy-sized chunks when fighting heathens anyway. Also, the usurp mechanic is different. When you usurp, you actually get the title in question, not just a claim. So if you own all of the Mecklemburg counties, but the pagans still exist with the duchy title for some stupid reason, you just pay the gold cost and usurp the title, making it yours.

Because titular realms can still buy up king and duchy level titles when they hold the right counties, having a bunch of titular titles floating around Iberia and the Baltic means that these realms will still end up becoming "Duke of Mecklemburg" in addition to "Tribe of Super Heathen," granting them extra prestige they might not be entitled to.
 
Secret Master said:
Also, the usurp mechanic is different. When you usurp, you actually get the title in question, not just a claim. So if you own all of the Mecklemburg counties, but the pagans still exist with the duchy title for some stupid reason, you just pay the gold cost and usurp the title, making it yours.
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The ruler from whom the title was usurped retains a claim on the title, though, right?
 
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