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Thread: A small map look update

  1. #41
    My wish came true! Great!

    Quote Originally Posted by zonkie View Post
    Much better! Very nice.



    Byzantine colour should be Tyrian purple
    Byzantine colour should be Byzantium
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Skullheadhq View Post
    My wish came true! Great!



    Byzantine colour should be Byzantium
    Nah. Tyrian purple.

  3. #43
    That looks really good. More muted and earthy.

  4. #44
    Dovahkiin Filip de Norre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezqu View Post
    All independent realms can be seen. So thats why some counts are visible. The one in Poland is most likely independent barony as it doesn't own the whole county. Dukes and Kingdom coat of arms are shown even if they would be vassals.
    That doesn't seem to be the truth, I see some count shields, that are vassals, like Fyn. I suppose it's a count as it's shield is smaller. Indenpendent barony? Is that actually possible in the game (haven't read anything either confirming or denying it)?
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Filip de Norre View Post
    That doesn't seem to be the truth, I see some count shields, that are vassals, like Fyn. I suppose it's a count as it's shield is smaller. Indenpendent barony? Is that actually possible in the game (haven't read anything either confirming or denying it)?
    The tiny shields indicate baronies that are not vassals of the duchy that the province belongs to. At least that is what I gathered from watching the live streams. Independent baronies are also possible. You can for instance grant a castle to a holy order without giving away the county and without making them your vassals.

    Edit: I suddenly became uncertain, though. Counties that are not a part of a duchy should also have their shield on the map. Or should they?
    Last edited by Maginor; 06-12-2011 at 19:25.

  6. #46
    Am I the only one who likes red Byzantium? Even if purple is the regal colour, red feels way more Roman to me.

  7. #47
    Honestly, I think I really preferred the previous versions of the map. I'm a bit color blind and so I'm not a big fan of using dull, washed out colors in an interface that needs to efficiently convey information. Will there be a way to mod the colors brighter?

  8. #48
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Looks much better this way than as solid blocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    Am I the only one who likes red Byzantium? Even if purple is the regal colour, red feels way more Roman to me.
    You and Johan, apparently, so that's quite a weighted vote, sadly.

    Thinking of red as the Roman colour is understandable given that it's the Hollywood colour for all their armies and so forth (and if you're showing classical Rome, it'll be with armies hanging around, almost inevitably. They used different colours depending on the legion), but it isn't more than speculation on what'd look "cool", where-as Purple stretches back to pre-Republican kings of Rome (thus the taboo during the republic, and given the taboo for that using red for the Republic is more sensible).

    Picking something purely because "it looks nice" to some over a clearly more historical alternative for the Empire (with heirs literally "Born into the Purple") is in the same vein as Scottish kilts and horned Vikings but on a much more subtle and obscure scale.

    (Edit) And on another point regarding the subject: Why would you want it to be red when almost all of Eastern Europe is red? It already needs variety there.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    Am I the only one who likes red Byzantium? Even if purple is the regal colour, red feels way more Roman to me.
    +1.

    I find it very cool.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    You and Johan, apparently, so that's quite a weighted vote, sadly.

    Thinking of red as the Roman colour is understandable given that it's the Hollywood colour for all their armies and so forth (and if you're showing classical Rome, it'll be with armies hanging around, almost inevitably. They used different colours depending on the legion), but it isn't more than speculation on what'd look "cool", where-as Purple stretches back to pre-Republican kings of Rome (thus the taboo during the republic, and given the taboo for that using red for the Republic is more sensible). Picking something purely because "it looks nice" to some over a clearly more historical alternative for the Empire (with heirs literally "Born into the Purple") is in the same vein as Scottish kilts and horned Vikings but on a much more subtle and obscure scale. (Edit) And on another point regarding the subject: Why would you want it to be red when almost all of Eastern Europe is red? It already needs variety there.
    I understand the argument for purple completely, but pretending that red has no precedent in Byzantium seems a little off to me.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...entury.svg.png
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6plkYnwA48...tine+flag3.png
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6plkYnwA48...ntine+flag.png

    I'm seeing lots of colours here, but purple isn't one of them, you know what I mean? And I think if you look at the history of prominent Roman flags you'll see lots of red too.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    pretending that red has no precedent in Byzantium seems a little off to me.
    Which I never said or suggested and actually stated the opposite for both the Republic and that some legions did use it, it just wasn't a standardized colour as it's displayed in movies, because there was no such thing.

    Those are also the Crest and Motto specific to the Palaiologos dynasty that come into play 60 years after the Fourth Crusade. At the start we're still thirty years away from the first one.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Which I never said or suggested and actually stated the opposite for both the Republic and that some legions did use it, it just wasn't a standardized colour as it's displayed in movies, because there was no such thing. Those are also the Crest and Motto specific to the Palaiologos dynasty that come into play 60 years after the Fourth Crusade. At the start we're still thirty years away from the first one.
    You can go back as far as you'd like. I'm not seeing any grand purple flags here. Going further back before the introduction of the double eagle in the 11th century, I'm seeing flags like this: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5066/71320975hf0.gif

    Where's the purple flags?

  13. #53
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    The Wiki says
    The first recorded use of byzantium as a color name in English was in 1926(underlined by the poster)
    So I guess the colour name Byzantium was born on the traditional connotation between the Empire and somehow purple. Wiki says nothing about the relation between the Byzantine Empire and the colour (112, 41, 99)(RGB) in the middle ages.

    About the red Easteuropean countries, many (even if not ALL) countries in that region use red in their flags. I guess that's why.


    By the way, I really like the new colours! They look more elegant, and like the map in a historical atlas.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    You can go back as far as you'd like. I'm not seeing any grand purple flags here. Going further back before the introduction of the double eagle in the 11th century, I'm seeing flags like this: http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5066/71320975hf0.gif

    Where's the purple flags?
    What are you talking about? That's a Labarum (a military standard) that you appear to have just sort of.. MS Painted into a Flag-like thing. They didn't use flags, so obviously they aren't going to be used to show how obvious "red" is.

    If you're throwing around Standards then why not make it Blue?



    Because your Hollywood notion won't fit that? It's almost as sensible.

    Apart from this discussion, what is your opinion on making it red when almost all of Eastern Europe already is?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    What are you talking about? That's a Labarum (a military standard) that you appear to have just sort of.. MS Painted into a Flag-like thing. They didn't use flags, so obviously they aren't going to be used to show how obvious "red" is. If you're throwing around Standards then why no make it Blue? Because your Hollywood notion won't fit that? It's almost as sensible.
    Apart from this discussion, what is your opinion on making it red when almost all of Eastern Europe already is?
    This is what I'm talking about: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...amp-Navy-Ranks

    Early Byzantine Empire flags had nothing to do with the two-headed byzantine eagle. Early Standards (as they are displayed in the Cretan Naval Museum in Chania), depicted either the Cross with four B-shaped firesteels Each letter B stands for Vassileus Vassileon Vassilevon Vassilevonton (King of Kings ruling over Kings) or the Greek abbreviation (Christogramma in Greek) for Christ (Christos/XPICTOC in medieval Greek) on red, yellow or blue field
    Gold, Blue, Red, but not purple. Perhaps I haven't been clear. I want you to show me a purple flag, but you seem to be resistant and instead talk about Hollywood, when I'm posting links to historical flags. Now to be perfectly clear, please post some official and historical purple flags of the Byzantine state for me. Thank you.

  16. #56
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    Gold, Blue, Red, but not purple. Perhaps I haven't been clear. I want you to show me a purple flag, but you seem to be resistant and instead talk about Hollywood, when I'm posting links to historical flags. Now to be perfectly clear, please post some official and historical purple flags of the Byzantine state for me. Thank you.
    Impossible. Not because you're correct, but because they didn't use flags in the way you think of them. The "source" you quoted merely states that these are variations used for military standards. Military Standards. Purple is the Imperial Colour. You could signal that you were a pretender to the throne and an enemy of the state by as much as wearing purple-coloured boots. It's not something a common soldier is going to be hauling around (not to mention it is by far the most expensive, and thus most luxurious, colouring).

    And the reason for bringing up cultural depictions of Rome is because you're lobbying for a Red Empire and NOT a Blue one. That shows a bias to what people happen to show in the movies and tv-shows, which is why I asked if you'd support that as a more legitimate colour than Imperial Purple, given your "Military Standards"-argument.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Picking something purely because "it looks nice" to some over a clearly more historical alternative for the Empire (with heirs literally "Born into the Purple") is in the same vein as Scottish kilts and horned Vikings but on a much more subtle and obscure scale.
    I really don't see how purple is a clearly more historical choice here. "Born in the purple" either referred to the color of a room in the imperial palace, or the color of court clothing. It's a marker of wealth, not an identification of purple with the Roman Empire. In general you purple = rich in the ancient world, not just Rome (Persian and Egyptian rulers also loved their purple robes).
    And red has its precedents too. Byzantine standards (labara) were supposedly usually red or red and blue, and the tetragrammic imperial banner is mainly red. So red seems like an equally historically appropriate choice., IMO

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Impossible. Not because you're correct, but because they didn't use flags in the way you think of them.
    By the end of the game's timeframe they did.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Impossible. Not because you're correct, but because they didn't use flags in the way you think of them. The "source" you quoted merely states that these are variations used for military standards. Military Standards. Purple is the Imperial Colour. You could signal that you were a pretender to the throne and an enemy of the state by as much as wearing purple-coloured boots. It's not something a common soldier is going to be hauling around (not to mention it is by far the most expensive, and thus most luxurious, colouring).
    I don't think you understand that the word "standard" in this context refers to a type of flag. And considering your argument rests solely on being some kind of historical purist, then why not argue against the notion of Byzantium having a flag at all, hmm? Because perhaps such a suggestion would make your argument seem quite silly, similar to the argument you're making now for some kind of purist attachment to purple which you haven't been able to back up by your own admission.

    You have conceded that as a state colour, purple can't be found. It can be found as the personal pride colour of the Emperor, but nothing in regard to the state. Unfortunately, the Emperor doesn't seem to get colour codes, only the realm of Byzantium does in this case. So I guess, using your argument that purple as a Byzantine colour does not exist, purple would be a most inappropriate colour for Byzantium. Thank you for your assistance. I'm more convinced than I was before, that red is the best colour here.


    And the reason for bringing up cultural depictions of Rome is because you're lobbying for a Red Empire and NOT a Blue one. That shows a bias to what people happen to show in the movies and tv-shows, which is why I asked if you'd support that as a more legitimate colour than Imperial Purple, given your "Military Standards"-argument.
    How is that a bias? If you look at all of the flags I posted, there's clearly more red than blue throughout Byzantine history. This argument is based on the always wrong notion that these games are historical simulators and not video games, yes? Look at the screenshots. What flag did the developers give to the Byzantines?
    Last edited by Jia Xu; 06-12-2011 at 20:35.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Looks much better this way than as solid blocks.

    Picking something purely because "it looks nice" to some over a clearly more historical alternative for the Empire (with heirs literally "Born into the Purple") is in the same vein as Scottish kilts and horned Vikings but on a much more subtle and obscure scale.
    well did germany or the HRE ever have a grey flag or grey coa? No. But noone questions their colours..

    ad topic: the map looks great now, much better than before

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