+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: OOB - how to organize my army?

  1. #1
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52

    OOB - how to organize my army?

    Hello,

    I'm new to HOI3 FTM and I was wondering what's the optimal number of brigades in a division? What about divisions in corps, corps in armies, armies in army groups, army groups in theatres? What about aviation and navy? Can/should I mix land units with air and navy in same corps/army? What's the best grouping if I also want to keep the outliner organized (ex: I wouldn't want to have a disorganized mix of land and air units in the outliner).

    The reason that I'm asking this is because I' starting my first game and I want to setup my OOB as Germany.

    I would appreciate if you can also specify the reasons (stacking penalties, etc).
    Last edited by braveheartm; 24-11-2011 at 09:30.

  2. #2
    sexy shoeless god of dice
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Warwickshire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,734
    In any given combat it is generally better to have few larger divisions, rather than the same number of brigades in more divisions. This is because of four factors: i) Stacking penalties, ii) frontage, iii) leaders and iv) multiple targeting effects. However a fifth factor can counter this to some degree, which is v) exploitation.

    i) Stacking penalties. Each friendly unit in battle gets a % malus, when there are more friendly divisions in a combat than a certain limit. This malus increases (for all units) when more divisions enter the battle. Hence fewer, larger divisions allows you to fight without penalty more often and with a smaller penalty when you do.

    ii) Each battle has a certain frontage limit, depending on the number of provinces that the attacker attacks from. If the attack originates from one province only the limit is 10 frontage, that is you can add new divisions to the fight until this frontage is exceeded (not reached, exceeded). If you have large divisions of 5 frontage each you can fight with 3 divisions for a total of 15 brigades. If you have 4 frontage per division you can equally add 3 divisions for a total of only 12 brigades. 3 frontage per unit leads to 4 divisions or a total of 12 brigades in the battle. 2 frontage means 12 brigades can be brought to the fight and 1 frontage divisions allow for 11 brigades. You can see larger divisions allow a higher concentration of force.

    iii) Leaders. You have only so many good leaders. Fewer divisions mean more of your brigades are assigned to top-ranking leaders, while more divisions would mean progressively worse leaders must be used. There is a small caveat here, in that this could also be used to train leaders early if you expect the army to increase over the course of the war, hence necessitating good leaders later. For this reason it is also better to have a flat structure (5 Divisions per Corps, 5 Corps per Army, 5 Armies per Army Group), as far as sensible in terms of force concentration and command limits.

    iv) multiple targeting effects due to the mechanics of attack values and defensiveness/toughness values. This is a complex topic and you can read more about the principle in a Hoi2-thread linked in my signature, as the principles have not changed. Basically when a division is targeted by more attack points than it has defensiveness(in a defensive battle) points, the difference gets doubled. E.g. when a division has 10 defence and is attacked by 14 attack points, 4 of these get effectively doubled, i.e. it is attacked by 18 effective attack points.
    Now take the following illustrative example: A Pitched fight between 4 Infantry brigades on both sides, each of which has 5 (soft)attack points and 7 Defence and toughness points (not realistic numbers, just an example). Let the blue side combine these into one division of 4Inf, with 20 Softattack and 28 Defence, while the red side uses two divisions of 10 Softattack and 14 Defence each.
    Both red divisions fire at the singe blue division, so there are 20 total incoming shots, which are countered by 28 Defence, i.e. no doubling happens and the red divisions have a combined firepower of 20 shots per hour.
    On the other hand the blue division targets a single of the two red divisions each hour, which accordingly is targeted by 20 attack, while having 14 defence. Since attack exceeds defence the difference (6) gets doubled and the blue division deals out 26 effective shots per hour – 30% more than its counterpart.

    v) However smaller divisions can also be useful, in particular in the exploitation phase. Just an illustrative example: When you have achieved a breakthrough in the enemy lines, you can pour your fast units through there and capture as much ground behind the enemy lines as possible. What would you rather use: 2 Divisions of 5 Motorized Infantry Brigades, or 5 Divisions of 2 such brigades? The later allows you to cover 2.5 times as much ground as the first combination, but at the cost of not really being able to push over a stray enemy 3Brigade Infantry Division that might be encountered in the enemy rear. To me this is not as important anyway, as even the 5 Brigade division would be severely weakened by such a fight and could not sufficiently do its job of creating a maximal systematic shock to the enemy front-line integrity. In other words: Avoid the fight in the first place.
    "Fairness is not, strictly speaking, a market failure." Tim Harford

    Some small contemplations on HOI2 combat :
    Multiple Targeting Effects I II
    Artillery in Defence
    The optimal ratio of Militia and INF


    A small Axis & Allies MP AAR: Part I , II, III and IV.

  3. #3
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52
    very helpful info theokrat ... thanks a lot.
    Can you be more specific on the stacking penalties? What is the division limit for a fight? Is there a formula for calculating penalties based on division number?

    What happens if I put in a fight more devisions than the frontage limit? Will these additional div act as reserves (joining fight only when I manually retreat a division from the frontage or automatically retreats because of loosing)?

    How do I know how many forces would I need to invade and win against SU or any other country? Can I find out (present) or predict (future) how many and which type of forces they have/can build so I can properly prepare my invasion?

    If 2 divisions meet in combat, the unit that is defending is favored or attacking unit penalized? By how much, considering a flat terrain with no obstacles and good weather.

    Are all the calculations (attack, defense, toughness, stacking penalties, terrain penalties, etc) done on division level or brigade level? What happens if I trow in a battle an entire corps (are calculations done on corps, division or brigade level)?

    Do you know a tutorial that can teach me how to mix unit types? ex: 3 x infantry + 1 x artilerry is usefull if/when/against ... 2 x Light armor +1 motorized + 1 self propelled art is usefull if/when/against ...

    What about supplies? I understood that I may need to open more supply routes as needs grow. How can I do that?

    What about navy and air? Do I have the same rules and limits like for land battles? Should I mix air and/or navy units with land (same corp/army/army group)?

    Sorry for that many questions, but I'm new to this game and I would probably save a lot of time by using your tips. Thanks again for your help.
    Last edited by braveheartm; 24-11-2011 at 13:18.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    very helpful info theokrat ... thanks a lot.
    Can you be more specific on the stacking penalties? What is the division limit for a fight? Is there a formula for calculating penalties based on division number?

    - There is one, I think it is 5% per division > 4 divisions. You can check it out yourself though if you overstack a province and attack someone, go to battle, hover mouse over your fighting divisions, and it will tell you the stacking penalty for that battle.

    What happens if I put in a fight more devisions than the frontage limit? Will these additional div act as reserves (joining fight only when I manually retreat a division from the frontage or automatically retreats because of loosing)?

    - You will get a stacking penalty if divisions in the province > 4, and yes they will act as a reserve and be reserves untill you manually retreat to a province, or attack from another province opening more frontage (15 for 2 province attack, 20 for 3 province attack and so on).

    How do I know how many forces would I need to invade and win against SU or any other country? Can I find out (present) or predict (future) how many and which type of forces they have/can build so I can properly prepare my invasion?

    - I like one infantry core with 10 frontage in each border province, (Typically 4x Divisions: 2x 3x INF+ART 2x 2x INF+AT/AA) and panzer divisions with more frontage behind. This allows me to help crush the enemy with my panzer divisions, and they will never be "reserve", but rather join the fight at once. It helps me remember frontage, and that I can always just add one extra division, and if I add another it will be wasted in reserve. (This is in general my front strategy, for Barbarossa I would probably aim for 50% in reserve and an entire Panzer army for exploits :P)

    If 2 divisions meet in combat, the unit that is defending is favored or attacking unit penalized? By how much, considering a flat terrain with no obstacles and good weather.

    - Some terrain is good for defending (Mountains, Forest, Jungle, Urban) other is less suited(like plains).

    Are all the calculations (attack, defense, toughness, stacking penalties, terrain penalties, etc) done on division level or brigade level? What happens if I trow in a battle an entire corps (are calculations done on corps, division or brigade level)?

    - Depends on the total frontage of the divisions in the core. I think calcs are made on division level, as when you create a division you get the stats for that division.

    Do you know a tutorial that can teach me how to mix unit types? ex: 3 x infantry + 1 x artilerry is usefull if/when/against ... 2 x Light armor +1 motorized + 1 self propelled art is usefull if/when/against ...

    - Read this by Valentinan: Clicky!

    What about supplies? I understood that I may need to open more supply routes as needs grow. How can I do that?

    - Take ports, and AI auto creates them as long as this is set in the Production menu. (Some, like I prefer to do it manually though)

    What about navy and air? Do I have the same rules and limits like for land battles? Should I mix air and/or navy units with land (same corp/army/army group)?

    - Stacking penalty applies yes. I prefer 3 max in a squadron, and 6 ships max in a fleet. (Can combine them in battle for extra firepower) ie two fleets shadowing eachother, two bombers bombing same ground.

    Sorry for that many questions, but I'm new to this game and I would probably save a lot of time by using your tips. Thanks again for your help.
    Try reading the AARs for help, tricks, and tips
    Last edited by ev0lution; 24-11-2011 at 14:16.

  5. #5
    sexy shoeless god of dice
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Warwickshire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,734
    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    Can you be more specific on the stacking penalties? What is the division limit for a fight? Is there a formula for calculating penalties based on division number?
    Yes there is a formula of stacking penalty depending on number of divisions, but I do not know it since I edited the stacking penalty out of my game (see below). Other factor that contribute are skill of theatre commander and certain techs. Check on the Wiki


    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    What happens if I put in a fight more devisions than the frontage limit? Will these additional div act as reserves (joining fight only when I manually retreat a division from the frontage or automatically retreats because of loosing)?
    Yes that is exactly what happens.

    Note that divisions in reserve also count for the stacking penalty mentioned further above. Thus reserve divisions can actually be very harmful to your overall battle effort. This is very annoying when allied units are around, enter the battle and reduce your chances of winning. Because of this I have actually edited the stacking penalty out of my game.

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    How do I know how many forces would I need to invade and win against SU or any other country? Can I find out (present) or predict (future) how many and which type of forces they have/can build so I can properly prepare my invasion?

    You can send spies into the SU and assign the “military espionage” mission. You can then see an estimate of their division number in the intelligence screen.

    The better method however is to place a level-10 radar station into the Königsberg area and maybe one into southern Poland, after its conquered. These will give you a very detailed overview of Soviet Forces quite far into their turf. This allows detailed planning of advance routes and possible encirclement.


    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    If 2 divisions meet in combat, the unit that is defending is favored or attacking unit penalized? By how much, considering a flat terrain with no obstacles and good weather.

    Well besides terrain and weather effects a defending unit might profit from being dug-in (IIRC +10%), provided it had been in the province sufficiently long. Also certain leader traits affect the defensive and attacking units scores, as does the presence of fortifications. Furthermore attacks can occur from multiple directions, giving a negative modifier to defenders. Lastly a unit that is attacked while attacking to a different province itself gets a -50% modifier for the defensive battle.

    Besides these modifiers, it can be seen that Toughness is usually a bit smaller than Defensivess, an advantage for defenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    Are all the calculations (attack, defense, toughness, stacking penalties, terrain penalties, etc) done on division level or brigade level? What happens if I trow in a battle an entire corps (are calculations done on corps, division or brigade level)?

    All calculations in land-to-land combat are done for each division.

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    Do you know a tutorial that can teach me how to mix unit types? ex: 3 x infantry + 1 x artilerry is usefull if/when/against ... 2 x Light armor +1 motorized + 1 self propelled art is usefull if/when/against ...
    I know no such thing, but analysis suggests ART is king and – IMO Armor is a waste of resources. A good combination is 2INF+2ART as a general purpose unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    What about supplies? I understood that I may need to open more supply routes as needs grow. How can I do that?
    By building/capturing better Infrastructure and [b]ports[b] (where applicable), by resupplying via transport planes and by researching the supply techs under “theory” (which also creates combat experience practical knowledge!)

    However these are cumbersome and slow methods and it can often be better to reduce consumption. This can be done by
    i) using less units or less heavy units (motor instead of tanks, less artillery…),
    ii) logistic wizard commanders (which only reduce consumption for stationary units though, meaning they are only useful to reduce the stress on the supply network during preparation phases)
    iii) Highly skilled Army Group commanders. Each skillpoint reduces consumption by 5% of all units under this command, i.e. a level-5 general can reduce consumption by 25%, or allow for 33% more units with the same supply level
    iv) Various minister types can also help

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    What about navy and air? Do I have the same rules and limits like for land battles? Should I mix air and/or navy units with land (same corp/army/army group)?

    No the rules are much different in regards to combat. What is equivalent is that they profit from logistic wizards in the hierarchy and importantly good army group commanders. Due to this I place navy and air under army groups, but not lower (cant be sure they remain in command range). I do not know however if assigning them to armies or corps might be better if those are managed by the AI.

    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    Sorry for that many questions, but I'm new to this game and I would probably save a lot of time by using your tips. Thanks again for your help.
    No worries, but you might find it helpful to look at the Wiki –and just experiment
    I do suggest reading the excellent FAQ by Kanitatlan if you are interested in battle mechanics.
    "Fairness is not, strictly speaking, a market failure." Tim Harford

    Some small contemplations on HOI2 combat :
    Multiple Targeting Effects I II
    Artillery in Defence
    The optimal ratio of Militia and INF


    A small Axis & Allies MP AAR: Part I , II, III and IV.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Alex_brunius's Avatar
    200k clubAchtung PanzerArsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCities in Motion
    Cities in Motion 2Crusader Kings IIDeus VultEU3 CompleteFor the Motherland
    Hearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the ThroneMagickaMajesty 2
    Victoria: RevolutionsRome GoldSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars II
    Victoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedCK2: Holy Knight500k club

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,607
    Quote Originally Posted by theokrat View Post
    Well besides terrain and weather effects a defending unit might profit from being dug-in (IIRC +10%), provided it had been in the province sufficiently long.
    Actually its +20% max now using latest patch.

    The most common defensive bonus in my experience is rivers since they cut most attacking divisions efficiency in half.
    "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - Patton

  7. #7
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52
    thanks, theokrat. I will start reading the wiki and Kanitatlan's FAQ as you suggested.

  8. #8
    Major RickR's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    March of the EaglesSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: Warband

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Here, there, everywhere
    Posts
    765
    BraveHeartm,

    This is indeed a big question. I don't have time now to go into detail but would like to add a bit more to theokrat answers and some suggestions because many here helped me long ago when I strived to understand this game.

    First, understand this is complex game and will take a while to understand and just when you think you got it – BAM – something new that someone will tell you or you’ll discover by yourself. So, take your time and enjoy it.

    Next, you need to understand Frontage in order to win…read everything you can find on it. Theokrat’s posts are extremely good as are 'Blue emu', his detailed instructions and explanations are written very clearly. He is a moderator on this forum…his explanation of Frontage long ago is extremely good and the point of using more Support Units in place of Line units changed my and many others tactics completely…but there is no free lunch and what is good on the offense might not be so good on the defense – to each his own.

    OOB…everyone has their own flavor. Some play historical and some don’t. I would recommend that you do not start with a huge amount of mobile units which is the amateur’s main mistake. There is nothing worse then to get to 1941/2 and you cannot support the massive armor armies on the East Front. I can only tell you what I use and like. I normally try to make do with 4 full mobile Korps of 5 division per Korps. I have 2 Panzer and 2 Mot Korps with the Motorizes supporting the Panzers, basically the Pz breaking through and the Mot holding the ground that was won. They are configured as 2MedArm/2SPA/Eng and 2Mot/SPA/Eng many times I use SPG with the Mot in place of SPA. Why the Engineer and not a third Pz, is running through your mind, right? I play a Mod version (most long time players do) and those Engineers are worth their weight in gold. Why no Lt Armor to dash through (they’re much faster) and complete the encirclement? It’s personal preference and I do use them at times early in the war. I recently have been configuring my ground pounders in 3 divisions Korps as 2Inf/2Aty. Logically this makes no sense as 5 Division Korps would use less men because you use less HQ units and you will need those men on the Eastern Front but…seems to play better and also is more historical.

    Also, I recommend after you get the hang of it you look into a few mods. There are few that IMHO turn this great game into a fantastic game. Look at “DiDay’s Iron Cross Edition (ICE) which is well known and has a big following. Also, start following the Realistic Unit Progression Mod (RPM) it’s not quite there yet but they got a great team and are really motivated – it’s going to be fantastic. For just a few bucks buy Dies Irae: Gotterdammerung its money well spent. That is all I have played this past year. The map is extraordinary. It improves the game so much...

    How big an Army? That is the $1000 question and as small as possible is the answer. Supplies are key....but trying to cover that Eastern Front will have your mind in a twist, of that I am sure.

    Supplies...the age old problem. I assume you are playing as Germany which means that most supplies will come over land (at least in the interim) and transportation is affected by weather, partisans, bad roads, air attacks and damn near about everything else. Ensure you research Technologies>Theory> Supply (both of them) and keep them up to date…you can research up to 2 years beyond your current date. Should this not make sense then research until game complains about your ineffective use of research for that category. Ports are a biggie for supplies (also ensure you defend them as invaders will want to capture them in order to stay supplied. Defend them with what and how much is your call. I use 4 Garrisons which might be over kill but… also how you deal will partisans is a big deal and dealt differently by each. Remember also that you can play GAME MODE = ARCADE which removes the Supply problem. This is not a bad idea when learning the game…considered wimpy when you have got the hang of game. LEADERS can reduce your supply cost greatly. At a minimum Make your ARMY GROUP commander a level 5 because 'Decreases supply consumption by 5% per leader skill level."

    Navy…I have no advice there. I play as Germany and trying to research a Navy that can compete with England and the US and Netherlands… I use subs to harass and sink convoys. It doesn’t do much but makes me feel better about the whole situation. Honestly, there are those here that manage and prefer to go head-to-head with the Allies naval forces. I do not…the Soviets give me enough game. Oh! When using subs keep them in packs of no more than 2, 1 is better and ensure you place them on the lowest STANCE of PASSIVE if you want them to live. These subs are not an offensive weapon, at least not tactically, strategically they work well however some prefer Naval bombers and their points for doing so are valid. Nevertheless, hammer their convoys...

    Air…Interceptors are a must. How many…good question with lots of different answers. I try to do it with 20 units in Wings of 4-5. Lots of different strategies here. England is the problem (of course) so much so that I station all Interceptors on the Westerner Front.

    Leaders...topic all of its own and my wife is howling about guests arriving for Thanksgiving dinner so... good hunting! - Rick
    "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject."
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

  9. #9
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52
    I'm amazed on how helpful you guys are. Great community here. I will take my time to learn the game and, I hope that I will be able to challenge some of you in multiplayer in a few months. Btw, I got Dies Irae: Gotterdammerung mod as well, do you think I should play this mod (FTM version) over the vanilla, considering that's my first HOI3 game? Is it stable enough to play it over FTM or should I wait for the next DIG FTM patch?

  10. #10
    Major RickR's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    March of the EaglesSemper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: A House DividedMount & Blade: Warband

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Here, there, everywhere
    Posts
    765
    BraveHeartm,

    "Btw, I got Dies Irae: Gotterdammerung mod as well, do you think I should play this mod (FTM version) over the vanilla"
    Absolutely! Everything is better. The map is beautiful and the HQs are colored coded so by a glance you know where they are. I know, sounds silly but you will be handling a lot of data if you are managing everything (which is what I recommend). It also has some special units such as Panzer Lehr, GrossD, etc... which are kinda of cool and the play environment is tweeked to be better fixing some whacko things (I won't call them bugs but others might ) Yeah, play it. The learning curve will not be any worse and you will lose nothing with lots to gain.
    It's stable...I've been playing it for weeks and I'm at 1946, just make sure you use use the version for FTM. I am using 2.06 with no problems, I'm sure there is something wrong somewhere but nothing serious and it is being use by many of us. Go for it! - Rick
    "An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject."
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

  11. #11
    sexy shoeless god of dice
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Warwickshire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,734
    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    I'm amazed on how helpful you guys are. Great community here. I will take my time to learn the game and, I hope that I will be able to challenge some of you in multiplayer in a few months. Btw, I got Dies Irae: Gotterdammerung mod as well, do you think I should play this mod (FTM version) over the vanilla, considering that's my first HOI3 game? Is it stable enough to play it over FTM or should I wait for the next DIG FTM patch?
    I'll say go with the "normal" FTM version first. You will hopefully be amazed by the game anyway.

    Then, when you feel you have seen everything in the normal game, get DGM and play it, so you can feel excited again, rather than having seen everything already.
    "Fairness is not, strictly speaking, a market failure." Tim Harford

    Some small contemplations on HOI2 combat :
    Multiple Targeting Effects I II
    Artillery in Defence
    The optimal ratio of Militia and INF


    A small Axis & Allies MP AAR: Part I , II, III and IV.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm View Post
    Can you be more specific on the stacking penalties?
    http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/L...mbat_reference

    stacking penalty = -100% x ( 1 - ( 0.9 raised-to-the-power-of [divisions more than the limit]))

    So:
    Code:
    +Div  Penalty
    1	10
    2	19
    3	27.1
    4	34.39
    5	40.95
    6	46.86
    7	52.17
    8	56.95
    9	61.26
    10	65.13
    What is the division limit for a fight?
    There isn't one.

    Will ...additional div act as reserves (joining fight only when I manually retreat a division from the frontage or automatically retreats because of loosing)?
    Exactly that. They will also attempt to join the fight if the width expands due to a combat event beginning or ending, whether that's it returning to the fight having been kicked out by a front-shortening combat event, or getting in there while a front-lengthening event is in effect. The chance is based largely on the skill of the general in charge of the Corps to which the Division belongs.

    If 2 divisions meet in combat, the unit that is defending is favored or attacking unit penalized? By how much, considering a flat terrain with no obstacles and good weather.
    I don't think the defender gets any advantage in plains, but pretty much any bonuses are added to the defender and penalties are subtracted from the attacker, so only in the absolute ideal situation is the attacker on a par with the defender.

    Are all the calculations (attack, defense, toughness, stacking penalties, terrain penalties, etc) done on division level or brigade level? What happens if I trow in a battle an entire corps (are calculations done on corps, division or brigade level)?
    Read the wiki for more info, but the combat is never calculated at the corps level. Brigade and Division both have a part to play in the combat calculation though.

    Do you know a tutorial that can teach me how to mix unit types? ex: 3 x infantry + 1 x artilerry is usefull if/when/against ... 2 x Light armor +1 motorized + 1 self propelled art is usefull if/when/against ...
    If your targets' softness is greater than 50%, you will be best attacking with high SA units. If it's lower than 50%, high HA units will be best. Combined Arms can mitigate a multitude of sins. If a Division has a softness less than 50%, it gets an additional bonus when attacking units with softness greater than 50%. Other than that, it's glaringly obvious.

    What about supplies? I understood that I may need to open more supply routes as needs grow. How can I do that?
    Read the supplies article in the stickies. Supply is, at heart, simple and mechanistic, but there is a lot of it going on, so properties can emerge. The only real way to actively 'open more supply routes' is if there are ports available to you to send supply convoys to (that are practicable) which leapfrog some bottleneck or other. Generally, you have little control over the routes the supply takes.

    What about navy and air? Do I have the same rules and limits like for land battles?
    No. You have different rules and stacking limits.

    Should I mix air and/or navy units with land (same corp/army/army group)?
    It can pay to have non-land units attached to land HQs. They receive the relevant benefits of the HQs "General's skill level" bonus, and some traits (notably Logistics Wizard), so you can get reduced supply use (AG), and an ORG (Army) bonus. I don't know whether stacking limit reductions from Theatre apply to Air/Naval units, but I'd imagine so. Of course the HQ has to be in range, so it can be problemmatic reaping these benefits.
    Last edited by womble; 24-11-2011 at 19:17.

  13. #13
    sexy shoeless god of dice
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Warwickshire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,734
    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    stacking penalty = -100% x ( 1 - ( 0.9 raised-to-the-power-of [divisions more than the limit]))

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by braveheartm
    What is the division limit for a fight?
    There isn't one.
    What braveheartm meant was the limit after which the stacking penalty kicks in. It is true that it is not a hard boundary. It can - and should - be exceeded to yield optimal results.

    Keeping that in mind: stacking limit = ( 3 x number_of_attack_vectors ) + 1
    "Fairness is not, strictly speaking, a market failure." Tim Harford

    Some small contemplations on HOI2 combat :
    Multiple Targeting Effects I II
    Artillery in Defence
    The optimal ratio of Militia and INF


    A small Axis & Allies MP AAR: Part I , II, III and IV.

  14. #14
    Colonel
    Europa Universalis: ChroniclesEU3 CompleteFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest Hour
    Semper FiSengokuVictoria 2Victoria II: A House Divided

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,189
    Some info about OOB:

    Theatre HQs can control any number of sub-units. Under a theatre are army groups HQs that can control up to 5 armies (but you can attach armies to a theater HQ if you want to skip this level), armies HQs can control up to 5 corps and corps HQs can control up to 5 divisions (made of max 5 brigades).

    The incentive to have a complete chain of command are the cumulative bonuses of every leader (general), a division general trait is accounted for 100%, a corps 50%, army 25%, army group 12,5%, theater 6,25% (all cumulative). Plus different bonuses at every level, division = combat efficiency, corps = reserve rotation, army = organisation, group = supply consumption and theater = coordination.

  15. #15
    Guys, I'm also a new player and could you clarify one terminology for me pls? If you say "a unit is in reserve" (and counts for the stacking penalty), do you also refer to a unit that is in the particular province but wasn't been given an order to attack or is it only the unit that was been given an order to attack but doesn't fit into the frontage width?

    (Sorry about my broken English, hope it's comprehensible )
    What man is a man who does not make the world better?

  16. #16
    sexy shoeless god of dice
    Crusader Kings IIFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourVictoria: Revolutions
    Semper FiVictoria 2Victoria II: Heart of Darkness500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Warwickshire, United Kingdom
    Posts
    5,734
    Quote Originally Posted by JiM_cz View Post
    Guys, I'm also a new player and could you clarify one terminology for me pls? If you say "a unit is in reserve" (and counts for the stacking penalty), do you also refer to a unit that is in the particular province but wasn't been given an order to attack or is it only the unit that was been given an order to attack but doesn't fit into the frontage width?

    (Sorry about my broken English, hope it's comprehensible )
    The later. In cases of defensive action all units in the province will either be at the front or in in reserves (or retreating)
    "Fairness is not, strictly speaking, a market failure." Tim Harford

    Some small contemplations on HOI2 combat :
    Multiple Targeting Effects I II
    Artillery in Defence
    The optimal ratio of Militia and INF


    A small Axis & Allies MP AAR: Part I , II, III and IV.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by theokrat View Post
    The later. In cases of defensive action all units in the province will either be at the front or in in reserves (or retreating)
    This is one of the joys of being on the offensive. You could stack 20 Divisions in a province that can attack out 5 ways, and order 4 to attack each accessible province, and suffer no stacking penalties. Don't let the enemy surprise and pre-empt you though, or they will attack you on one axis with 4 Divisions and a full frontage and your 16 or your 20 will all count against you for stacking penalties, while your actual engaged fighting potentials are equal.

    Similarly, if you're attacking a superstack, you'll be playing into their hands if you attack from many directions, raising the allowed number of divisions and reducing their stacking penalty.

  18. #18
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52
    That means that frontage and stacking limit is calculated per battle and attack vector and not by province , right?

  19. #19
    Captain KipAllen's Avatar
    Europa Universalis 3For the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourSemper Fi
    500k club

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    St. Louis, MO, USA
    Posts
    396
    Braveheartm, if you're going to try DIG, there is a terrific mod, Vowards Panzer, for it.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
    --George Orwell

  20. #20
    Sergeant braveheartm's Avatar
    Cities in MotionCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourDeus VultEU3 Complete
    Divine WindFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron IIIHOI3: Their Finest HourHeir to the Throne
    MagickaSemper FiSword of the StarsSword of the Stars IIVictoria 2
    Victoria II: A House DividedVictoria II: Heart of DarknessMount & Blade: Warband500k club

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Romania, Timisoara
    Posts
    52
    Can you give me a link to Vowards Panzer mod? What's improved over DIG? Is it compatible with DIG 2.06 for FTM?

    Do you guys know any graphical/sprite/interface improvement mods that are compatible with all mod's and vanilla FTM? Are there any tools that can help me with OOB and/or plan research (are they compatible with FTM 3.05, DIG 2.06 or other mods)?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts