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The Trials of Orabilia MacDuib - A Beta AAR

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Nick B II said:
Not really a match made in heaven.

The Crown prince of Scotland isn't gonna agree to a matrilineal marriage, which means poor Orabilia's heir would be a Dunkeld, and Kriegsspieler'd lose when she died.

Nick
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It's worse than that.

Why would the king of Scotland waste a son marrying some minor vassal when he could marry his son off to an English, French, Danish, or even Norwegian princess? The last thing Scotland needs is to waste a chance at a foreign alliance by throwing a son away at some domestic wench who will want a matrilineal marriage anyway. It would serve no political purpose.

If the king wants his grandsons to inherit those lands, he can just revoke titles or imprison/banish/confiscate her titles easier than wasting a marriage on her. That's what I would think, at any rate. (You might not like playing MP with me. :D )
 
keynes2.0 said:
Couldn't Orabilia's realm have a different succession law then the kingdom it is in? So she could have married Dunkeld then have her sisters son inherit, keeping it in the family? Or just grant the land to her nephew directly.
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That's risky because it assumes a 16-year-old girl with an underage sister will have nephews.

Elective law could work. Presumably if the only Baron is a nephew, and Aunty Orabilia nominates him as heir, he'd be elected. But that would require a change in laws, it's not clear that's trivial for a Count-level character in CK2, and it requires Orabilia live a couple more decades. Moreover it's not clear it would be easy to change back.

Any number of nightmare scenarios are possible. Orabilia dying before the nephew is born and em-Baroned is obvious one. But what if she gets the Duke-title she covets? That comes with Count-level vassals, and now those Count-level guys get to vote but Baron Nephew doesn't. Or maybe she gets another Count-title with three Baron-vassals who vote as a block, screwing Baron Nephew.

And even if it works Baron Nephew, now Earl Nephew of Fife, has Elective Law. In CK1 Elective was the best law from a power-gamer's perspective because you could rig the election by abusing the game mechanics. So your genius fifth-cousin could be your heir if your actual sons were dimwits. CK2 seems like Elective will be the worst law, because at best you can guarantee your choice two votes -- one from the old ruler, and his own -- which means it's pretty much inevitable a human-run elective realm will get game over within a few generations.

The strategy he actually adopted (Orabilia marries a random dude matrilinearly, her sister marries the King normally) is a lot less risky.

Nick
 
Well, since you mentioned elective law, let me just say that ducal titles have votes at the kingdom level. Hypothetically, the king can stack the deck in his favor by hoarding enough ducal titles (or giving them to the proposed heir) that he effectively controls the vote. (I've done it in order to ensure certain kinds of realm progress in recent builds.)

However, vassals in CK2 are smart enough to recognize this. Rulers who hoard elector titles incur a vassal loyalty penalty. It can be more than enough to offset the normal vassal loyalty bonus from elective law and will encourage plotting. Not something that can't be overcome, but you can't abuse the system anymore without consequences. And since elective law still can have pretenders, you will still end up with important vassals having claims on your main title because they were in 2nd place in the voting, making it easy for them to try and overthrow you with either succession CB or pressing their claim with outside help. :)
 
@SecretMaster
The AI thinks in mysterious ways.

King Malcolm married Orabilia's sister Lady Der-Ilei. So Orabilia's rank, as actual Countess of Fife, was clearly high enough for it.

The only explanation I can think of is that a) in 1066 Scotland starts with basically no vassals, so an alliance with a minor Countess is the equivalent of an alliance between the King of France and the Duke of Toulouse and b) the AI really values it's friendships.

b) really surprises me because this is pretty much the first source I've seen that implies "friendship" will exist in-game. I knew there were bilateral relations, so that two people could both like each-other, and be friends that way, but this mini-AAR seems to imply something like CK1's friends/rivals mechanic.

Nick
 
Nick B II said:
@SecretMaster
The AI thinks in mysterious ways.

King Malcolm married Orabilia's sister Lady Der-Ilei. So Orabilia's rank, as actual Countess of Fife, was clearly high enough for it.

The only explanation I can think of is that a) in 1066 Scotland starts with basically no vassals, so an alliance with a minor Countess is the equivalent of an alliance between the King of France and the Duke of Toulouse and b) the AI really values it's friendships.

b) really surprises me because this is pretty much the first source I've seen that implies "friendship" will exist in-game. I knew there were bilateral relations, so that two people could both like each-other, and be friends that way, but this mini-AAR seems to imply something like CK1's friends/rivals mechanic.

Nick
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The AI might also have excess sons. It can happen, and they need to do something useful with their miserable lives. :)
 
This AAR fills me with more questions than answers. :p As a female character the game doesn't end when your heir has a different name then yours? The King of Scotland decided to just give you all that land?
It's still very exciting and makes me want to play the game too!
 
DukeWilleo1630 said:
As a female character the game doesn't end when your heir has a different name then yours? The King of Scotland decided to just give you all that land?
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Yes it will end if they have different last name. He did maternial marriage that means all the children got from the marriage will have their mothers last name and are so part of her dynasty. I think he conquered the land from the last duke and the king just gave him the duke tittle as she already owned the land for it. King most likely took the duke tittle away from the now landless duke.
 
Secret Master said:
It's worse than that.

Why would the king of Scotland waste a son marrying some minor vassal when he could marry his son off to an English, French, Danish, or even Norwegian princess? The last thing Scotland needs is to waste a chance at a foreign alliance by throwing a son away at some domestic wench who will want a matrilineal marriage anyway. It would serve no political purpose.

If the king wants his grandsons to inherit those lands, he can just revoke titles or imprison/banish/confiscate her titles easier than wasting a marriage on her. That's what I would think, at any rate. (You might not like playing MP with me. :D )
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Actually, that's exactly what I would do. Why waste the risky option of revoking her titles, and upsetting other vassals, when you can quietly marry the younger sister, get some babies, and then murder the older sister and her family?

Did that more than once in CK :D
 
Would be great if an additional trait or title would be "prince/princess". These titles would not be connected to any land but would only be given to the first generation of children by a King or reining Queen. It would look even more impressive on your ahnentafel that your great-grandmother was "Adelgunde de Hauteville, princess of Jerusalem" rather than just "Adelgunde de Hauteville, married to the insignificant count of Tyrol". Either a person is born a "prince/princess" or he/she is conferred the titles as her/his father or mother ascends the throne.
 
Willem said:
Would be great if an additional trait or title would be "prince/princess". These titles would not be connected to any land but would only be given to the first generation of children by a King or reining Queen. It would look even more impressive on your ahnentafel that your great-grandmother was "Adelgunde de Hauteville, princess of Jerusalem" rather than just "Adelgunde de Hauteville, married to the insignificant count of Tyrol". Either a person is born a "prince/princess" or he/she is conferred the titles as her/his father or mother ascends the throne.
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I think they already implemented that. maybe they didnt go along with it in the end.
 
Willem said:
Would be great if an additional trait or title would be "prince/princess". These titles would not be connected to any land but would only be given to the first generation of children by a King or reining Queen. It would look even more impressive on your ahnentafel that your great-grandmother was "Adelgunde de Hauteville, princess of Jerusalem" rather than just "Adelgunde de Hauteville, married to the insignificant count of Tyrol". Either a person is born a "prince/princess" or he/she is conferred the titles as her/his father or mother ascends the throne.
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Not sure about that, becose there are parts of Europe where prince is a land title equivalent to a Duke.
 
Gromdal said:
Not sure about that, becose there are parts of Europe where prince is a land title equivalent to a Duke.
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Good point.

Perhaps the best was would be to implement it as a trait adding to the character's prestige. As it is a trait conferred upon you by your parents' ascension to a throne, there would be only one way to loose it: If the charater inherits the same throne.

So, if you're married to the seventh daugther of the King of Bulgaria, she will still maintain her trait as princess when her brother takes over the throne. Your children on the other hand, will not inherit the trait.

By making it a trait, and not connecting it to a land holding, it gives the necessary flexibility.

What say ye, Dev-team?
 
It could even work at all five levels. The son or daughter of a count who is not themselves a count is an heir of a county. Son or daughter of a duke is an heir of a duchy, etc. If the heir to a county becomes a count in their own right (before or after the death of their parents), they lose the trait as it's now redundant. But before that day, they go around telling everyone "totally gonna be count one day, just you wait!"
 
Wezqu said:
Yes it will end if they have different last name. He did maternial marriage that means all the children got from the marriage will have their mothers last name and are so part of her dynasty. I think he conquered the land from the last duke and the king just gave him the duke tittle as she already owned the land for it. King most likely took the duke tittle away from the now landless duke.
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Actually, no, I don't recall Orabilia having entered the war at all before the King dispossessed everyone and handed the title over to her. I believe my thinking was that Orabilia didn't have enough $$ to hire any mercenaries and the resident army was too small, so she would have to wait until the dust settled and she had accumulated some funds.
Folks, I must say that I am really tickled that people have found this little story so interesting. :)
 
The sons of Kings have their own titles. Every walk-through clearly includes the title Prince before their name. While I'd prefer the system be extended to every titled character the devs haven't done that yet. Moreover they haven't told us how they've done it for Princes so we can't know if it's moddable.

Gromdal said:
Not sure about that, becose there are parts of Europe where prince is a land title equivalent to a Duke.
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Prince Heinrich of the Holy Roman Empire was pretty clear to me in their October 15th video:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...lers-etc.)&p=12961497&viewfull=1#post12961497

There aren't a lot of Kingdoms in the game, so it won't be that hard for somebody whose played a few games to tell whether a Prince is a sovereign Prince or a King's son.
 
Gromdal said:
Not sure about that, becose there are parts of Europe where prince is a land title equivalent to a Duke.
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Well the title of prince is applied in various ways, first of all there royal (and imperial) princes and noble princes. The position of noble princes also varies in different parts of Europe, in some cases a prince could be equal to a count or be even more important than a duke.
 
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