• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Joel M Bridge

General
91 Badges
Jun 9, 2011
1.886
44
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • King Arthur II
  • Magicka
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
When have you enought land and glory tocreate a king title, you can't make it offical until the pope/highest priest give you his grace and coronate you as the chosen of god. So untill then you have deal with all negative with land without the kingship, and work on being good term with the Pope. Anybody thoughts?
 
It's very popular on the forums to require that a potential King have permission from the Pope or Emperor, and potential Dukes have permission from their King. This would be historically accurate, and lead to interesting diplomacy in-game.

Unfortunately the devs haven't said that this will be the case, leading me to conclude that they're probably still using the same system as CK1.

Nick
 
Besides especially in the HRE other rulers like the duke of Brabant, Limburg & Lothier used 'by the grace of god', in other parts it was less common; for instance when the Valois Burgundian dukes, which were uniting the Low Countries, also adopted this in France, it was seen as declaration of independence (the king ruled by the grace of god).
 
Last edited:
what :blink:

He's saying that in Sengoku if you own a significant portion of provinces forming a daimyo title, you can ask your liege to grant that daimyo title to you.

It's not really the same thing though since if you own all provinces making a daimyo title, you get that title automatically and the titles are inherited directly by your heir. The liege or anyone else has no say in either case.
 
He's saying that in Sengoku if you own a significant portion of provinces forming a daimyo title, you can ask your liege to grant that daimyo title to you.

It's not really the same thing though since if you own all provinces making a daimyo title, you get that title automatically and the titles are inherited directly by your heir. The liege or anyone else has no say in either case.

Yes it expect, even if you had all the land you would still ne permisson from the or overlord.
 
Yes it expect, even if you had all the land you would still ne permisson from the or overlord.

I can't remember, but in CKDV... If Bohemia formed a kingdom, did the King of Germany get a claim on the title?

If not, he should because obviously permission doesn't really get asked.
 
I don't know if I like this idea from a game perspective. Sometimes cobbling together enough counties to even have claim to a king title can be enough work, let alone having to ask the Pope for it after the fact. From a flavor perspective I love the idea, I just fear it would detract from the gameplay.

I'm sure, however, there will be all kinds of interesting takes on Papal authority in CK2 down the road.
 
I can't remember, but in CKDV... If Bohemia formed a kingdom, did the King of Germany get a claim on the title?

If not, he should because obviously permission doesn't really get asked.

Nope.

When Bohemia promoted himself in DV he was completely independent of Germany. No claims, no event warning the German King, no nothing.

Ideally it won't be so simple in CK2, but the devs haven;t said. :-(

Nick
 
One of the things I'd really like to here about, not neccesarily have an entire DD dedicated to it, but would be nice if this was expanded upon by the devs :)
 
Can anyone provide an example of an occasion where a King title was created and the Pope said "nope", and shot the person back down to a Duke? A count can't creat a Duke title, only a King can do that and then pass it out, so that part I agree with, but I've never heard of the Pope having anything to say with the creation of a Kingdom. Would be interesting to read.
 
Can anyone provide an example of an occasion where a King title was created and the Pope said "nope", and shot the person back down to a Duke? A count can't creat a Duke title, only a King can do that and then pass it out, so that part I agree with, but I've never heard of the Pope having anything to say with the creation of a Kingdom. Would be interesting to read.

Well, nominally the Kingdom of Lithuania. Founded as a Grand Duchy in the 12th century, one of the most powerful Dukes, Mindaugas, received baptism and surrendered some lands in the west in return for being crowned as King by the direct intercession of Pope Innocent IV; the Pope got a Christian bulwark against the Mongols, and Mindaugas got his crown and time to consolidate his rule against his rivals, as well as peace with the Crusader states. When Mindaugas reverted (or seemed to revert) to paganism, the Kingdom reverted to a Grand Duchy and the Crusader states moved against him. Vytautas the Great tried to regain the crown in the early 15th century (near the end of the game's time frame), but Polish intercession prevented the crown from arriving in Lithuania before Vytautas died.

Specifically, however, it shouldn't be that a creation of a King title occurs and the Pope forces it to revert. Rather, it should be that the creation itself requires a Papal blessing to occur at all, such that withholding this blessing means it never occurs in the first place. That's how it usually worked; in the example above, Lithuania wasn't a Kingdom until the Pope ordered the Bishop of Chelmo to crown Mindaugas. Mindaugas couldn't style himself a King until that occurred, though he was the one who initiated the process by approaching the Livonian Order. Basically, the Catholic player would claim the Kingdom title, but they wouldn't become a Kingdom until the Pope or some other major power (the Holy Roman Empire) accepted it. On the other hand, other religions, lacking such a centralized focus, wouldn't necessarily need such an extra step, and I can see the "Grand Duchy" title of Lithuania as still being equivalent to a Kingdom-tiered title in practical game terms.
 
Can anyone provide an example of an occasion where a King title was created and the Pope said "nope", and shot the person back down to a Duke? A count can't creat a Duke title, only a King can do that and then pass it out, so that part I agree with, but I've never heard of the Pope having anything to say with the creation of a Kingdom. Would be interesting to read.

This would be a perfect situation for a wannabee King to create an Anti-Pope, I would assume.
 

This is the same situation with Hungary IIRC. The Magyars were a roaming band of nomads led by a son of Arpad. Stephan I of Hungary received his crown from Pope Sylvester II upon his conversion to Roman Catholicism
 
An Antiking (German: Gegenkönig Latin: Contrarex) is a would-be king who, due to succession disputes or simple political opposition, declares himself king in opposition to a reigning monarch. Antikings are more often found in elected monarchies than in hereditary monarchies like those of England and France; such figures in hereditary monarchies are more frequently referred to as pretenders or claimants. They are most commonly referred to in the politics of the Holy Roman Empire down to the beginning of the 15th century. The term is comparable to Antipope, a rival would-be Pope, and indeed the two phenomena are related; just as German kings and emperors sometimes raised up antipopes to politically weaken Popes with whom they were in conflict, so too Popes sometimes sponsored antikings as political rivals to emperors with whom they disagreed.

Several antikings succeeded in vindicating their claims to power, and were recognized as rightful kings: for example, the Emperors Conrad III, Frederick II, and Charles IV (see table below). The status of others as antikings is still disputed to this day: e.g., Henry II, Duke of Bavaria and Egbert II, Margrave of Meissen.

Other nations that produced antikings included Bohemia and Hungary.

So for example pope depend on succession law could make a Antiking. Pope in the end is only one that make kingship offical and legal to the catholic world, regardless how much of bad ass the ruler maybe.
 
Can anyone provide an example of an occasion where a King title was created and the Pope said "nope", and shot the person back down to a Duke? A count can't creat a Duke title, only a King can do that and then pass it out, so that part I agree with, but I've never heard of the Pope having anything to say with the creation of a Kingdom. Would be interesting to read.

In addition to Lithuania, Portugal declared itself a Kingdom in 1139, but this status was iffy until they got Papal recognition in 1173. Others date their Kingdom to 1143, when their former feudal lords in Leon recognized their crown. The Portuguese themselves claimed they were successor to a Dark Ages Iberian Kingdom -- that of the Suebi IIRC -- so both recognitions were unnecessary.

Which shows you the diplomatic moves necessary to be recognized as a legitimate King in Catholic Europe during the era. It would be nice for CK2 to include some of that.

Nick
 
how could it work in game?
you declare a kingdom, then have a negative modifier until the pope approves it?
or you declare an intent to form a kingdom and have to wait?