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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culise View Post
    Well, nominally the Kingdom of Lithuania. Founded as a Grand Duchy in the 12th century, one of the most powerful Dukes, Mindaugas, received baptism and surrendered some lands in the west in return for being crowned as King by the direct intercession of Pope Innocent IV; the Pope got a Christian bulwark against the Mongols, and Mindaugas got his crown and time to consolidate his rule against his rivals, as well as peace with the Crusader states. When Mindaugas reverted (or seemed to revert) to paganism, the Kingdom reverted to a Grand Duchy and the Crusader states moved against him. Vytautas the Great tried to regain the crown in the early 15th century (near the end of the game's time frame), but Polish intercession prevented the crown from arriving in Lithuania before Vytautas died.

    Specifically, however, it shouldn't be that a creation of a King title occurs and the Pope forces it to revert. Rather, it should be that the creation itself requires a Papal blessing to occur at all, such that withholding this blessing means it never occurs in the first place. That's how it usually worked; in the example above, Lithuania wasn't a Kingdom until the Pope ordered the Bishop of Chelmo to crown Mindaugas. Mindaugas couldn't style himself a King until that occurred, though he was the one who initiated the process by approaching the Livonian Order. Basically, the Catholic player would claim the Kingdom title, but they wouldn't become a Kingdom until the Pope or some other major power (the Holy Roman Empire) accepted it. On the other hand, other religions, lacking such a centralized focus, wouldn't necessarily need such an extra step, and I can see the "Grand Duchy" title of Lithuania as still being equivalent to a Kingdom-tiered title in practical game terms.
    Just nitpicking, but IIRC wasn't Mindaugas successor the one who reverted to paganism? And Poland had periods early in game , when not all Polish High dukes managed to get a coronation and thus didn't became king. Or that before Ottokar I managed to make the title of king of Bohemia hereditary by good political maneuvering, it sometimes was granted to the dukes of Bohemia as a personal title by the Emperor.

  2. #22
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruwaard View Post
    Just nitpicking, but IIRC wasn't Mindaugas successor the one who reverted to paganism? And Poland had periods early in game , when not all Polish High dukes managed to get a coronation and thus didn't became king. Or that before Ottokar I managed to make the title of king of Bohemia hereditary by good political maneuvering, it sometimes was granted to the dukes of Bohemia as a personal title by the Emperor.
    but if when not being a king did he still have what in CK would be Dukes as Vassals?
    As then then it would have to be, can be a king but with a negative modifier that is only removed by getting the papal blessing.

    As it doesnt matter what the specifics of the historical precedent is, just how it might work in game. A King isnt a King, a King is someone who fulfills the in game role of a King, i.e. has dukes as vassals.
    but having the get papal blessing to be legitimate, prestige boost on event or removal or a prestige draining modifier, could be a practical way to include this.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    how could it work in game?
    you declare a kingdom, then have a negative modifier until the pope approves it?
    or you declare an intent to form a kingdom and have to wait?
    The first option. You could have dukes as vassals but lack of legitimacy would impose penalties on their loyalty as well as on diplmacy with other kingdoms. IMO there could be two separate modifiers: one for lack of recognition by the pope or emperor; and one for lack of recognition by your former overlord. See the Portugese example in this thread: one penalty would be removed when Leon recognized Portugal, the other would wait until forty years later when the pope finally did.

  4. #24
    Field Marshal Ruwaard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barsoom View Post
    The first option. You could have dukes as vassals but lack of legitimacy would impose penalties on their loyalty as well as on diplmacy with other kingdoms. IMO there could be two separate modifiers: one for lack of recognition by the pope or emperor; and one for lack of recognition by your former overlord. See the Portugese example in this thread: one penalty would be removed when Leon recognized Portugal, the other would wait until forty years later when the pope finally did.
    Or the emperor approves it, especially for a kingdom in the HRE Bohemia, for instance the Holy Roman Emperor did grant the (crusader) ruler of Cyprus his royal crown. Recognizing and approving kings was a privilege of the pope and the emperor (although if both were equally powerful the pope would have more (recognized) authority, especially in established realms outside the empire).

  5. #25
    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    how could it work in game?
    you declare a kingdom, then have a negative modifier until the pope approves it?
    or you declare an intent to form a kingdom and have to wait?
    Or there could be a plot to influence the Pope into granting you a crown.

    Or just a restriction that to get the crown you have to have x relations with the Pope or Emperor, and when you hit the button the dialogue says "Pope/Emperor has granted you a crown."

    Nick

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruwaard View Post
    Or the emperor approves it, especially for a kingdom in the HRE Bohemia, for instance the Holy Roman Emperor did grant the (crusader) ruler of Cyprus his royal crown. Recognizing and approving kings was a privilege of the pope and the emperor (although if both were equally powerful the pope would have more (recognized) authority, especially in established realms outside the empire).
    I agree. To simplify game mechanics I would propose, though, that recognition could come from either emperor or pope. If you've got one, you don't need the other. I wouldn't mind if this would override lack of recognition from your former overlord. But, Portugal in mind, I would like it if recognition by your former overlord already reduced the reputation penalty by about half.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Barsoom View Post
    I agree. To simplify game mechanics I would propose, though, that recognition could come from either emperor or pope. If you've got one, you don't need the other. I wouldn't mind if this would override lack of recognition from your former overlord. But, Portugal in mind, I would like it if recognition by your former overlord already reduced the reputation penalty by about half.
    You only need recognition from emperors if part of his empire to being with, or Orthodox the ERM, but if your catholic and your legie lord is king, then you need apoint by the pope.

  8. #28
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    The Emperor is the highest secular authority in the world, whether your his vassal or not, France and England and bits of Spain all appealed to the Emperor at one point or another for a final arbitration when they needed one but doubted the pope would come down on their side.
    Have an alternative to turn to would be fun, and make playing the Emperor feel more like playing the Emperor not just playing a big king if other rulers came to you for judgements.
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  9. #29
    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel M Bridge View Post
    You only need recognition from emperors if part of his empire to being with, or Orthodox the ERM, but if your catholic and your legie lord is king, then you need apoint by the pope.
    That's what the Pope says, and since he won the investiture disputes that's what most people who look at it today think.

    But the relevant legal doctrine here is "fons honorum," and the Emperor had as much claim to being a universal fons honorum as the Pope. IIRC one of the times the Polish High Duke became a King he used an Imperial crown, and Poland certainly wasn't in the Empire.

    Nick

  10. #30
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    I think I'd really like if there was a big delay. For example, you're Count of Tripoli. You've conquered all of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. You go to the interface, click Create Title: King of Jerusalem. This starts an event chain. If the Pope likes you, you're made the King of Jerusalem after X time (30 days?). If the Pope doesn't, he says no and you try again later. If The Pope HATES you, he might give a claim to your rival, the Duke of Cyprus! Duke it out with the Duke (perhaps with Papal support and pun intended!!!) and you become King if you win!

    I think it'd give you even MORE of an incentive to be friends with The Pope!

  11. #31
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Theres a pretend system right? And the offical pretender can have dukes as vassals?
    So could it be workable that when you found a kingdom you do so as a pretender to a non-existant kingdom until the Pope or Emperor signs off on the paper work.
    that way you could still have dukes as vassals while waiting for approval. And if you were declined and it was given to someone else youd be in a position to contest it without losing any provinces conquered and given to liegemen.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    That's what the Pope says, and since he won the investiture disputes that's what most people who look at it today think.

    But the relevant legal doctrine here is "fons honorum," and the Emperor had as much claim to being a universal fons honorum as the Pope. IIRC one of the times the Polish High Duke became a King he used an Imperial crown, and Poland certainly wasn't in the Empire.

    Nick
    In Western side world the Pope place crown the Emperor head. So yes if your catholic man and not a vassal to Holy Roman Emperor then you need to get your crown from the pope. Where if your Orthodox it would come from the Byzantine Emperor who both hightest secular and relgious power.

  13. #33
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel M Bridge View Post
    In Western side world the Pope place crown the Emperor head. So yes if your catholic man and not a vassal to Holy Roman Emperor then you need to get your crown from the pope. Where if your Orthodox it would come from the Byzantine Emperor who both hightest secular and relgious power.
    But if youre bordering the empire, or an enemy of king of france or have your own antipope, or other reasons then having the Emperor as a second option would be cool.
    The Emperor isnt just an authority over his vassals, but all Christendom, even the bits that didnt agree that he was. And having the option would be fun.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel M Bridge View Post
    In Western side world the Pope place crown the Emperor head. So yes if your catholic man and not a vassal to Holy Roman Emperor then you need to get your crown from the pope. Where if your Orthodox it would come from the Byzantine Emperor who both hightest secular and relgious power.
    That's irrelevant to the simple question we are confronted with: did the Emperor have the power to create Catholic King-titles. Which is proven by the numerous examples of people going to him for King-titles.

    It also takes a very partisan view of the relationship between the Emperor and the Pope. I'll agree that Papal lawyers, and the Papal faction, would say you were right about the source of Imperial power, but that's only the Guelphs. The Ghibilines took the opposite view, and felt the Pope himself could be replaced by the Emperor. This was not resolved until the Concordat of Worms in 1122 (and wasn't fully resolved then), so it wouldn't make much sense to force a game that starts in 1066 to act as if either side had won.

    Nick

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    That's irrelevant to the simple question we are confronted with: did the Emperor have the power to create Catholic King-titles. Which is proven by the numerous examples of people going to him for King-titles.

    It also takes a very partisan view of the relationship between the Emperor and the Pope. I'll agree that Papal lawyers, and the Papal faction, would say you were right about the source of Imperial power, but that's only the Guelphs. The Ghibilines took the opposite view, and felt the Pope himself could be replaced by the Emperor. This was not resolved until the Concordat of Worms in 1122 (and wasn't fully resolved then), so it wouldn't make much sense to force a game that starts in 1066 to act as if either side had won.

    Nick
    Ok Pope crown the Emperor in of it as itself he gave up some power of Emperor of old, yes Emperor can crown kings but if your Catholic the Pope beat him, become place bloody German crown on his head. Where in the east it different story Byzantine for the most part has all the insane of amount of power that the Roman Emperor, because I said before he both is the highest secular and relgious power. So to HRE would still have jump throught some holes to even get his crown where his eastern brother laught at his german ass for amount power has, the bloody Head eastern christen faith bows to him.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    That's what the Pope says, and since he won the investiture disputes that's what most people who look at it today think.

    But the relevant legal doctrine here is "fons honorum," and the Emperor had as much claim to being a universal fons honorum as the Pope. IIRC one of the times the Polish High Duke became a King he used an Imperial crown, and Poland certainly wasn't in the Empire.

    Nick
    The case of Poland was very messed up. Bolesław I had the blessing of Otto III, but he died and Henry II hated Bolesław's guts so Bolesław had to wait until he died to crown himself king (and then HE died in less than a year). His son Mieszko II was crowned by the Archbishop of Poland apparently without anyone's permission, he was later forced by the Emperor and Mieszko's brother and some nobles to give up the crown and be just a Duke. His successors were also Dukes until Bolesław II who during the investiture controversy sided with the Pope and gained his blessing to crown himself King. He was deposed and his brother and successor was just Duke and so were all his successors until Przemysł II crowned himself king without the Papal or Imperial recognition. Then a bunch of Bohemian Kings made themselves Kings of Poland until Wladyslaw I with Papal blessing crowned himself. His son and successor was crowned King without asking for permission. He also completely ignored the concept of marriage for life divorcing himself without so much as asking the Pope or any priest for opinion a few times.
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  17. #37
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    A nifty Prestige modifier and demense modifer should suffice here. (assuming these are still major factors).

    What I have gathered from this discussion is that places where a King was not officially coronated should be seen as lesser than Kings but on a King tier (in game terms).

    So maybe a "trait" to the title like so that the prestige hits are per title the same way the bonus is per title.

    That way there is what is in game terms a Kingdom, but using game mechanics, it is not recognized as a Kingdom. Thoughts?

    By trait I do not mean character trait, but rather a check as to whether the King title is official or of a lesser degree.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratagyfan101 View Post
    A nifty Prestige modifier and demense modifer should suffice here. (assuming these are still major factors).

    What I have gathered from this discussion is that places where a King was not officially coronated should be seen as lesser than Kings but on a King tier (in game terms).

    So maybe a "trait" to the title like so that the prestige hits are per title the same way the bonus is per title.

    That way there is what is in game terms a Kingdom, but using game mechanics, it is not recognized as a Kingdom. Thoughts?

    By trait I do not mean character trait, but rather a check as to whether the King title is official or of a lesser degree.
    Self proclaim and other by grace of god?

  19. #39
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    This will never likely end up in the game. Prestige covers this idea. You can't claim a title until you have the money and recognition.

    The thing is, kingdoms became such on the strength of the claimant. Recognition as a legitimate state is different from being a king. Those guys sought papal recognition because it was the easiest road. Grand duchy is the same thing as a kingdom. It's symantecs and unimportant for the game.

  20. #40
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    You can take over a kingdom if you have the prestige to claim it, sure. You can also proclaim a kingdom that didn't exist before. The second case is what we're talking about. It seems a bit strange that other kings would simply accept your title as legitimate. Unhistorical too, would-be kings from areas where no kingdom existed before (like Poland and Portugal) were made to jump through hoops before their kingdoms were treated as the equal of other, already existant kingdoms.

    The difference is more than semantic and it could make the game more interesting. It would certainly be possible to include a modifier to represent this difference. Your diplomatic options would change when your newly proclaimed king negotiates to remove the modifier.

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