Symbols Flagpack

[chandlerw1]

I'm somewhat confused as to why you chose original designs over historical flags, such as with Luxembourg, the Irish fascist flag, and Germany's monarch flag, just to name a few.

Very nice flags, good use of symbolism.

Something that noticeably sticks out is that you used the Five Races flag for Manchukuo but not Republican China.

I'll be glad to discuss my choices here, and consider revisions where appropriate. I feel that my UI flagpack thread was dominated by our arguments, though, and I'd appreciate it if we could avoid repeating that here.

Here's my thoughts on the individual items you mentioned:

Luxembourg - I am actively considering a change here.

Ireland fascist - This is not an original design. This is the flag of the Irish National Party.

Germany monarchy - Yes, the black/white/red tricolor is the authentic German monarchy flag. But I play Germany frequently and I want a flag with a more monarchist feel. I realize looking at this, though, that I can use the authentic war ensign (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._1871-1892.svg) now that I'm not worried about centering.

Manchukuo/China republic - This one is complicated. I think that the use of the five nations flag by the Japanese puppet state makes the flag feel wrong as a generic republic flag for China (even though its origin predates the occupation). I guess you could make the same case for Manchukuo, but that state's independence was a Japanese artifact.

[Gloa]

The Blue Sky, White Sun, and a Wholly Red Earth flag might be a bit more appropriate for that republic flag (if you don't want the 5 races flag). The Blue Sky, White Sun flag was only used during the revolution (and afterwards as the flag of the Kuomintang Party in particular, not the nation as a whole).

The Japanese also used the White Sun in some of their puppet state flags as well, iirc (not very creative, I guess).

On another note:
- No "California Republic" for the bear flag?
- Any particular reason why you changed the character on Yunnan's flag from black to yellow? It looks rather washed out, and black (especially for a character) doesn't change the overall color scheme that much if you're trying to get consistency there (and for a warlord clique, I suspect the flags in vanilla are already far too consistent for what the flags would actually look like).

Are you not using default flags (so no distinction between Democracies and Republics)? It could allow you to fit in more flags and distinguish between Presidential Dictatorship style "republics" and democracies.

[chandlerw1]

The Blue Sky, White Sun, and a Wholly Red Earth flag might be a bit more appropriate for that republic flag (if you don't want the 5 races flag). The Blue Sky, White Sun flag was only used during the revolution (and afterwards as the flag of the Kuomintang Party in particular, not the nation as a whole).

The Japanese also used the White Sun in some of their puppet state flags as well, iirc (not very creative, I guess).

On another note:
- No "California Republic" for the bear flag?
- Any particular reason why you changed the character on Yunnan's flag from black to yellow? It looks rather washed out, and black (especially for a character) doesn't change the overall color scheme that much if you're trying to get consistency there (and for a warlord clique, I suspect the flags in vanilla are already far too consistent for what the flags would actually look like).

Are you not using default flags (so no distinction between Democracies and Republics)? It could allow you to fit in more flags and distinguish between Presidential Dictatorship style "republics" and democracies.

Thanks for the suggestion for the Chinese republic flag. I'll make that change.

I went with 'no text' versions for California because I wanted the flags to not be clearly out of place for a culturally Mexican California. Some others have chosen to have two sets of flags, two tags, etc. for this as another solution. I think you'll find good options for Anglo- and Mexico- versions of California flags in Magc8Ball's thread.

I did change the color of the Yunnan fascist flag for consistency, as you guessed. I thought I was doing the same thing as with Guanxi and Shanxi, but those two have consistent black foregrounds, so your point holds. I'll be glad to switch this back, but if you can think of something even better than that, that would great.

I agree that it would be neat to have seperate flags for the democracies vs. presidential republics. I think it might be challenging, though, to add another distinct flag for every country. I realize that I wouldn't have to make them distinct for every country, but I held myself to that with the current four flag approach, and would hesitate to drop that goal. I'll bat this around as a possible future project, though.

[Magc8Ball]

I think you'll find good options for Anglo- and Mexico- versions of California flags in Thoughtful Punk's thread.

My thread, actually unless someone put CAL flags in TP's thread that I missed.

Definitely a good overhaul set, very comprehensive, and one that I think I'll definitely pick-and-choose from for my own game. It will save me having to make flags for a number of nations that I might add at some point.

[Gloa]

Thanks for the suggestion for the Chinese republic flag. I'll make that change.

I went with 'no text' versions for California because I wanted the flags to not be clearly out of place for a culturally Mexican California. Some others have chosen to have two sets of flags, two tags, etc. for this as another solution. I think you'll find good options for Anglo- and Mexico- versions of California flags in Thoughtful Punk's thread.

It could say just "California", which would work for either culture. There's a lot different between Mexican and American California's, though (primary and accepted cultures, names, parties, etc.) that having one set of flags associated with one tag just might not cut it. There would have to be editing done anyway (changing the names for different government types, party names, etc.), so swapping out flags (or having a separate tag) isn't that much more.

I did change the color of the Yunnan fascist flag for consistency, as you guessed. I thought I was doing the same thing as with Guanxi and Shanxi, but those two have consistent black foregrounds, so your point holds. I'll be glad to switch this back, but if you can think of something even better than that, that would great.

I think the color scheme is distinctive enough as it is in vanilla, even with black text.

The warlord tags are a place where the white sun (well, no longer a white sun in them, I guess - the Kuomintang sun) sort of makes sense as the fascist flags - given the limited amount of actual flags we know about from each region then. It's either the warlords hiding behind the party image to be authoritarian, or a strict party line holding warlord (but not releasing control to a more national democratic government). I could see that being confusing, though, if you want consistent symbol usage throughout the flags.

They don't really work as a republic flag, though. Most warlords who weren't aligned with the KMT wouldn't use the symbol.

Maybe just some variation of the flags with the characters for Peace and Anti-Communism (as on the various Japanese puppet state flags - you could even just lift the text from one of those) would work best for fascist, with the vanilla democracy/republic flag left where it is.

[chandlerw1]

My thread, actually unless someone put CAL flags in TP's thread that I missed.

Definitely a good overhaul set, very comprehensive, and one that I think I'll definitely pick-and-choose from for my own game. It will save me having to make flags for a number of nations that I might add at some point.

Yep, my mistake. Will correct in the original message.

[chandlerw1]

I think the color scheme is distinctive enough as it is in vanilla, even with black text.

The warlord tags are a place where the white sun (well, no longer a white sun in them, I guess - the Kuomintang sun) sort of makes sense as the fascist flags - given the limited amount of actual flags we know about from each region then. It's either the warlords hiding behind the party image to be authoritarian, or a strict party line holding warlord (but not releasing control to a more national democratic government). I could see that being confusing, though, if you want consistent symbol usage throughout the flags.

They don't really work as a republic flag, though. Most warlords who weren't aligned with the KMT wouldn't use the symbol.

I probably won't build new flags for these at this point. Within that constrainst, though, it sounds like I should swap swap my republic and fascist flags for GXI, SXI, XBI, and YNN, and restore the black color for the character for the resulting YNN_republic flag.

Did I follow you correctly? This would be essentially restoring vanilla for GXI, SXI, and YNN. Do you think that the same swap (my XBI_republic <--> my XBI_fascist) would be appropriate for XBI also?

[Gloa]

I probably won't build new flags for these at this point. Within that constrainst, though, it sounds like I should swap swap my republic and fascist flags for GXI, SXI, XBI, and YNN, and restore the black color for the character for the resulting YNN_republic flag.

Did I follow you correctly? This would be essentially restoring vanilla for GXI, SXI, and YNN. Do you think that the same swap (my XBI_republic <--> my XBI_fascist) would be appropriate for XBI also?

You followed correctly and yeah, I think Xibei would follow similar logic (the original republic/democracy/monarchy flag differences not enough?). It's sort of hard to tell sometimes since the whole warlord era was not keen on using flags in a consistent or well observed manner.

[chandlerw1]

You followed correctly and yeah, I think Xibei would follow similar logic (the original republic/democracy/monarchy flag differences not enough?). It's sort of hard to tell sometimes since the whole warlord era was not keen on using flags in a consistent or well observed manner.

Thanks. For Xibei, I thought the republic and monarchy flags should be more distinct than the vanilla version.

[Magc8Ball]

Yep, my mistake. Will correct in the original message.

Heh, didn't need that, just wanted to make sure that people could find them if they wanted them.

[EGaffney]

Great.

Ireland fascist - This is not an original design. This is the flag of the Irish National Party.

Trust me, that's just one dude on the internet. A real Irish fascist flag was the banner of the Blueshirts.



I will also make the argument for the Starry Plough as the Irish Communist flag, either green/gold original or light blue/white modern (post-1934):

[chandlerw1]

Great.



Trust me, that's just one dude on the internet. A real Irish fascist flag was the banner of the Blueshirts.



I will also make the argument for the Starry Plough as the Irish Communist flag, either green/gold original or light blue/white modern (post-1934):

Thanks! I love the green/gold starry plough flag and will switch the fascist one also.

[chandlerw1]

I've decided to do a more thorough revision of the flagpack. I plan to add distinct flags for democracies and presidential republics in many, but not all, cases.

I'll be taking the flags in the orders that I've presented them, and adding comment text as I move through.

Current Status (10/21): Revision of A Grid complete

[Gloa]

Australia's Democracy-Republic-Monarchy flag selection seems a bit odd.

The Eureka flag became a bit of a symbol for democracy in Australia due to its origins (with some later usage and reference by more fascist-y groups), so it seems odd that either a British dominion or a home grown monarchy would want to use it. Perhaps the royal standard of Australia (with the middle crest removed to make it more British neutral if needed) would be a better monarchy flag, with the Eureka flag moved to either democracy or republic (the kangaroo is a bit odd too, maybe a version of Australia's modern flag with the British part removed - a suggestion for a flag change)

[chandlerw1]

I have updated the zip file attached to the first message, as well as the preview grids for A & B.

Revision Goals:

• add distinct Republic (vs. Democracy) flags
• incorporate additional authentic flags
• maintain ease of interpretation (what country is this flag? what form of government is this flag?)
• add source information for each flag to the preview messages

I think you all will like the set that results from this revision process, although it may take me a while to complete it. I'm really happy with the results so far.

[ZomgK3tchup]

Here are some very specific critiques and solutions.

• Belgium's monarchy flag has a noticeably different shade of yellow than the others.
• California's flags don't have writing on them, as per the actual flag.
• California's communist flag has too much contrast.
• I recommend using the Five Races flag for Fascist China rather than the altered Five Races flag. It doesn't make sense to use the altered version with no reference to the original.
• Perhaps you should use the Confederacy's battle flag as a fascist flag and possibly the coat of arms of George Washington (as per Washington D.C.'s flag) for the monarchy.
• The United Kingdom's flag has St. Patrick's Cross centered.
• Japan's monarchy flag would make it so that it doesn't use its real flag in-game unless it becomes a democracy.
• Liberia's fascist flag uses the British Union of Fascist's logo. While that's nice, it doesn't make much sense because Liberia was an American colony/protectorate/thing.
• Perhaps you should use Courland's flag as Latvia's monarchy flag since Latvia is centered around what used to be Courland.
• England and the Channel Islands need consistently with the size of St. Andrew's Cross. Currently, St. Andrew's Cross is noticeably smaller on the Channel Island's flag where it should be the same flag except defaced.
• England's monarchy flag should be its default flag, IMO.
• The pineapple on Jamaica's monarchy flag could use some touching up.

I hope that these will be helpful.

[chandlerw1]

Here are some very specific critiques and solutions.

I hope that these will be helpful.

Thanks! I appreciate the suggestions. Here's my thoughts, and one followup question.

• Belgium's monarchy flag has a noticeably different shade of yellow than the others. Will fix
• California's flags don't have writing on them, as per the actual flag. That's an intentional choice, but I'll think about it some more.
  
• California's communist flag has too much contrast. Will fix
  
• I recommend using the Five Races flag for Fascist China rather than the altered Five Races flag. It doesn't make sense to use the altered version with no reference to the original. Will consider, especially if the altered version is not authentic.
  
• Perhaps you should use the Confederacy's battle flag as a fascist flag and possibly the coat of arms of George Washington (as per Washington D.C.'s flag) for the monarchy. No way on using the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia as a fascist flag. I'm just not going to do that. I'll definitely revisit the original flags for the CSA as I revise the C grid, though.
• The United Kingdom's flag has St. Patrick's Cross centered. Will fix
  
• Japan's monarchy flag would make it so that it doesn't use its real flag in-game unless it becomes a democracy. Think I'm with you on the this one now. After all, Japan is still a constitutional monarchy, so I guess the democracy flag is the one that should diverge. Not totally decided on this, though.
  
• Liberia's fascist flag uses the British Union of Fascist's logo. While that's nice, it doesn't make much sense because Liberia was an American colony/protectorate/thing. I was using the BUF emblem as generic Anglo fascist symbol, but I'll try to find something different for this one.
  
• Perhaps you should use Courland's flag as Latvia's monarchy flag since Latvia is centered around what used to be Courland. The flag I see for Courland is dark red over white. Is that the one you mean?
  
• England and the Channel Islands need consistently with the size of St. Andrew's Cross. Currently, St. Andrew's Cross is noticeably smaller on the Channel Island's flag where it should be the same flag except defaced. Will fix
  
• England's monarchy flag should be its default flag, IMO. With the revision in progress, I'm planning to have all five flags be distinct for each country, so this flag will most likely be the republican tricolor.
• The pineapple on Jamaica's monarchy flag could use some touching up. Will try

[ZomgK3tchup]

Yes, the Duchy of Courland used a dark red over white bicolor.

[etranger01]

This is great! I wasn't really down with the centered flags but I definitely approve of this new flagpack idea. The time and effort you've put into these is very impressive.

Some feedback below; despite offering criticism, please allow my effusive praise to take precedence!

• I agree with California's flag simply having "CALIFORNIA" on it to make it bilingual and broadly applicable while retaining the basic theme.
• Belgium's monarchy flag seems to have a different contrast level on all the colors than the other flags; I like its slightly sharper coloration, so maybe the others should be bumped up to match it?
• Maybe consider Harry Turtledove's Freedom Party flag for a fascist CSA? (seen here)
• The Japanese fascist movement also has its own symbol (seen here) though I also love the radiating-sun flag, so I can understand not using it.
• Korea's monarchy flag seems really weird; maybe use either the Imperial Seal or the Korean Empire flag instead? (seen here)
• The "Don't Tread On Me" flag really clashes with the other three. Z0mgKetchup has some really great alternate flags; I'd personally recommend the Sons of Liberty flag for the fascist flag, or possibly this one. (Stolen from Fallout; the basic idea is the Betsy Ross flag + one large star for the central government)

Overall, I think this is fantastic. Would you consider doing a version compatible with the POP Demand Mod?

[ZomgK3tchup]

The "Don't Tread On Me" flag really clashes with the other three. Z0mgKetchup has some really great alternate flags; I'd personally recommend the Sons of Liberty flag for the fascist flag, or possibly this one. (Stolen from Fallout; the basic idea is the Betsy Ross flag + one large star for the central government)

I agree. It wasn't until two years ago that the Gadsden flag was associated with the far right.