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Thread: Naval OOB Planning for Italy, 1938-1944

  1. #61
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    there should be an avent for the sinking of HMS Warspite, similar to sinking the Hood, in my feeling.
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  2. #62
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    The results are not optimistic IMO. Firstly, a human player would be much toughter to beat in southern France than the AI, so your achievements there are not very realistic. Secondly, the Italian Army in Africa is being pushed back by the AI-controlled UK. There is not much room for maneouvres in Africa, but a human player would be able to at least achieve the same results. Thirdly, you have little chance of gaining naval superiority anytime soon. Again, carriers are almost invincible in HOI3 and zombie CAGs obliterate everything. Unfortunately, they are also not as susceptible to bad weather as they were in HOI2, but the HOI3's weather system is a big joke, anyway (it's still quite dysfunctional and its effects are less customisable than in HOI2, where you could specify weather modifiers by unit type).

  3. #63
    Second Lieutenant Beakmiester's Avatar
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    Can you sustain the losses as the UK can out produce you? I would hope from your comment your erstwile allies north of the alps provide a significant distraction to the English soon otherwise I can only see a slow painful drain on the Riga Marina.
    If the enemy is in range, so are you...

  4. #64
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    (above) Notes: Prior sinkings are struck out in red for British victories, and in green for Italian victories. During the current session Italy lost one light cruiser for two British light cruisers and a transport.
    I think you mean two French light cruisers?

  5. #65
    Colonel Valentinan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    The results are not optimistic IMO. Firstly, a human player would be much toughter to beat in southern France than the AI, so your achievements there are not very realistic. the HOI3's weather system is a big joke, anyway (it's still quite dysfunctional and its effects are less customisable than in HOI2, where you could specify weather modifiers by unit type).
    All valid points. Still, Italy is not getting any help from Germany in the south of France as they would in MP. Also, it's not possible to hold Tobruk in the early goings, particularly with the bulk of the Italian army in France. The strategy then becomes an organized retreat to Bengazi.

    On naval supremacy; a good German player with a credible plan for Sea Lion will provide Italy with just enough breathing room to sieze the intitiative in the Med. But, you are right. So far in this game Italy has had to retreat to port time and again while the RN is yet to be beaten. In MP one would expect British Tacs to port bomb and finish-off the Italian battlewagons by now.

    Now, the current patch was suppose to reduce CAG Duty bonus, and have seen some glimmer of hope in taking on the zombies. That is, have nearly shot them out of the sky on occasion (I know, sounds terrible). So, we'll continue and see how things play out.

    Your note on weather is also important, as Italy was trying to time its invasions, etc. for bad weather hoping it would aid evasion. Am at least trying to factor in weather in planning stages.
    Last edited by Valentinan; 27-10-2011 at 18:19.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beakmiester View Post
    Can you sustain the losses as the UK can out produce you? I would hope from your comment your erstwile allies north of the alps provide a significant distraction to the English soon otherwise I can only see a slow painful drain on the Riga Marina.
    Yes, attrition may seem to favor the UK, but what's taking its toll now is convoy raiding by Italy's Naval Bombers. British transports in the Med. are being sunk on a massive scale, and combined with German submarine activity--the UK is having to expend more and more IC just to maintain its life lines. So, theoretically, the RN cannot afford a battle of attrition either.

    Italy's FY'41 plan will roll out in July (two sessions away), and ship building is a priority. Getting the destroyer and crusier practicals above 10 is a necessity, even if it means scaling back on the Army.
    Last edited by Valentinan; 27-10-2011 at 18:20.
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  7. #67
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    the main problem in fighting the Royal Navy is that they can always transfer ships from Home Fleet to the Mediteranean Fleet to the Eastern Fleet. the only way to have any chance at a war of attrition is by taking the Rock. take Gibraltar with paratroopers and they will have to go all the way round the continent. I know that Italy starts out with at least one transport plane. research cargo capacity and build a para division.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterbean View Post
    take Gibraltar with paratroopers . . . I know that Italy starts out with at least one transport plane. research cargo capacity and build a para division.
    Both Gibraltar and the Suez have to be controlled to keep the British and Americans out of the Med, and the Suez takes more than just para's to capture and hold. But, ya, with transit right to Spain or Vichy one can invade Gibraltar by Air (did that with German paras my last AAR). In MP, one has to actually defeat the UK at sea in order to launch an invasion of the Rock because the British player usually sticks some heavy armor there.

    The strategy in this AAR is a bit different because we know, that the British know, we want to march on Suez. So, we're just being a little un-predictable and using some mis-direction to mask our attack. Stay tuned, the planning will be all laid out, and the action will go very fast.
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  9. #69
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    Subscribed. I like your excel-files (or rather, ods-files. thankfully I have OpenOffice at work, so I could convert them ). Thanks for sending, will put them to use when I get home
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  10. #70
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    Hey... just found this AAR. Really nice stuff. Interesting as my own MP-AAR are dealing with some similar issues. We tend to use 12-stacks in our MP group, but so far we haven't played FTM yet so I am eager to see what you can do with your smaller naval stacks. Looking forwards for more.
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  11. #71
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    Apr '40: The Germans Come to France




    ITALY NAVAL INTELLEGENCE: Intelligence continues to be gathered on the Royal Navy. Following are the results:

    Capitol Ship Practical: 19.03
    Naval Engineering: 16.6

    The British are currently researching:

    Naval Air Targeting (naval bombing target chance)
    Lt. Cruiser Engine
    Submarine Hull
    Commander Decision Making (target choice)
    Aero Engine
    Destroyer Engine
    Light Bomb Dev. (bonus to CAG sea attack)

    Italian research at this time is:

    Light Cruiser AA
    Fire Control System (target chance)
    Destroyer AA
    Interception Tactics (air intercept efficiency)
    Air Launched Torpedo (nav sea attack)
    Battleship AA*
    Battleship Crew Training (BB org and moral)

    * NOTE: This AAR has spawned a thread on battleship anti-air attack and defense, see: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...eship-Anti-Air

    NORTH AFRICAN CAMPAIGN—Operation Swordfish: With the Allies reeling from reverses in Ile de France, the Royal Navy must protect the home country from invasion. While the British are in dissarray, Italy will undertake a series of swift strokes to seal-off the Suez Canal and severe the Iraq oil pipeline. Loss of Iraqi oil will mean that to keep its massive fleet at sea the UK must buy oil from the Netherlands or USA. The additional cost of fuel will be a further drag on British IC, slowing their massive production efforts to a crawl.

    Operation Swordfish is the plan to capture the Suez Canal by landings in Tel Aviv and Alexandria. Meanwhile, the successful invasion of Iraq will provide the Regia Marina with all the oil it needs to continue the war at sea.

    The keys to Operation Swordfish are surprise, momentum, and misdirection. The British will not be expecting an Italian offensive in N.Africa, indeed they believe it's only a matter of time before Benghazi falls. So, it is most important that once the Italian army goes over to the offensive, it must sustain momentum until all objectives are met. The Royal Navy has proven superiority, and rightly believes that Axis seaborne invasion anywhere in North Africa would be foolhardy. Therefore, the Royal Navy must always be kept guessing about the objectives and where the next blow will fall.




    (above) Stages of Operation Swordfish.

    A. Stage One: Invasion of Greece. Motorized corps will drive down the coast to Athens, while mountain troops converge on Thesolonka. Marines invading the western Greek shore will occupy the port of Patra, and then light and motorized infantry will off-load and launch a coordinated attack on Athens from the west.

    B. Stage Two: Invasion of Crete and Cyprus. An army corps from Athens will quickly secure the port and airfield on Crete (unless a landing is required). Marines will depart the west coast of Greece, re-stage at Rhodes, then invade Cyprus and capture its airfield and naval base. Infantry and Desert Corps from Greece will re-stage at Cyprus. Meanwhile, a re-enforced army at Benghazi will begin the march on Tobruk, keeping Allied forces in the region continuously engaged regardless of the outcome.

    C. Stage Three: Invasion of Syria, Iraq, and Sinai peninsula. Marines from Cyprus will next land on the beaches north of Tel Aviv, and occupy the city. Light infantry, mobile infantry, and Desert Corps will then off load at Tel Aviv and continue the offensive. Infantry will hug the coastline with support from mobile infantry, moving west to capture the Sinai. Meanwhile, the Desert Corps will head straight for Baghdad, then continue on to capture Mosul and Basra.

    D. Stage Four: 3d Battle of Malta. As British troops move east to deal with the threat to Sinai they leave the coastline around Alexandria exposed. Still, the Royal Navy at Alexandria would easily break-up any attempted landing, so instead of a direct assault a diversionary landing will be made at Malta.

    Three (3) brigades of reserve marines will set out in two transports from Palermo escorted by a makeshift invasion flotilla. Three (3) battleship groups and eight (8) interceptor wings will be stationed in the region to engage the Royal Navy when it arrives. Four (4) wings of CAS will make dive-bombing attacks on enemy carriers, and
    TACs and naval bombers will be available to finish off any enemy ships that are fleeing or driven to port.

    E. Stage Five: Invasion of Alexandria. Once the Royal Navy is drawn away from Alexandria, marines from Tel Aviv will make a landing on the coast of Egypt to capture the port of Alexandria. Light and mobile infantry from Crete then off-load at Alexandria and march west to complete the capture the Suez Canal.



    (above) Force disposition for Operation Swordfish. Due to the superiority of British weaponary it is important that Italian forces enjoy at least a 3-1 advantage at the point of contact. Misdirection is the key to success. First, as the occupation of Crete threatens the Egyptian coast, the real invasion occurs at Cyprus. Then, as an Italian Army makes a bid for Tobruk, a second invasion occurs far to the east at Tel Aviv. Finally, as the Royal Navy rushes to protect Malta, Alexandria is left virtually defenseless.

    The plan is complex and requires good timing. Success will rest on the element of surprise as the British don't expect such an agressive campaign from the Italians in the Mediterranean. After the conquest of Greece, Italy is expected to pause to consolidate its gains. But, not this time. Italy will continue on the offensive until halted by counter- attacks or defeated at sea.


    FRANCO-ITALIAN WAR—Operation Fall Grün: The main goal in France is the link-up of German forces with the Italians at the southern end of the Maginot Line.



    (above) A: A corps of Italian light infantry will depart from their defensive forts and move north along the Swiss border to link-up with German forces from the north (gray arrows).

    B: Italian light infantry advance from current river defenses to the next river to the west.

    C: Italian mobile infantry haras the enemy's southern flank and force them to retreat.


    OPERATION FALL GRUN—Italian Execution:



    (above)
    A: By late-April Italian light infantry are finally in position to march north. Mobile infantry have just flanked the line to the south and threaten Allied forces with encirclement.

    B: By late-May counter-attacks from the north by French infantry (blue arrows) threaten to cut-off the advance, forcing Italian light infantry to retreat to the safety of their lines. As planned, the center of the line is successful in establishing a new defensive line to the west (white arrows).

    OPERATION FALL GRUN—AI Execution: Not all went to plan as the anticipated link-up between German and Italian forces never occurred. (So much for depending on the AI as an ally.)



    (above—top) By mid-May the German army had made no movement towards a link-up (yellow arrows) becaues they could not crack the Maginot line.

    (above—bottom) By mid-June French troops retreating from the Maginot line engage Italian troops pushing northwards. The German army occupies the Maginot line, but persue the French forces westward towards Paris instead of making the link-up as planned.


    NORTH AFRICA—Battle for Benghazi:



    (above) Italian forces make a stand at the strategic pass at Ra's at Tin.


    NAVAL COMBAT IN THE MEDITERRANEAN—Battle of Cote de Azur: As Marseilles falls to Italin mobile infantry, the British send a task groups to evacuate survivors.



    (above-top) Italian cruiser fleet sent to reconnoiter the British fleet comes under heavy attack by CAGs from two (2) British carriers and long-range guns of surface ships.

    (above-bottom) Due in no part to superior positioning, Commander Iachino sinks a British battleship and light cruiser, loosing only one light cruiser in the exchange. The Italian fleet is forced to flee to the port of Toulon because an Italian Battleship group sailing east from the Gulf of Lyon does not arrive in time.


    AIR COMBAT OVER THE MEDITERRANEAN—2nd Battle of Marseille:



    (above) Italian mobile reserves defend the strategic port of Marseille from invasion as interceptors are sent to engage British CAGS.


    NAVAL BALANCE OF POWER IN THE MEDITERRANEAN:



    (above) Italy scores another tactical victory over the Royal Navy with sinkings of one battleship and two light cruisers, against losses of three light cruisers and three destroyers.

    Note: prior sinkings are struck-out in red for British KIAs, and in green for Italian KIAs.

    Next Time: Fall of France
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  12. #72
    Colonel Valentinan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptEasy View Post
    Hey... just found this AAR. Really nice stuff. Interesting as my own MP-AAR are dealing with some similar issues. We tend to use 12-stacks in our MP group, but so far we haven't played FTM yet so I am eager to see what you can do with your smaller naval stacks. Looking forwards for more.
    Cool, cool. Italy has any number of ways to go, wish you luck in your campaign.
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  13. #73
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    if this were chess, i'd say you were winning. just be careful you don't run out of pawns.
    very interesting plan to gain control of Suez. going in one stroke for Malta, Cyprus, Crete, and the middle east is ambition befitting il Duce.
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  14. #74
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    I don't see how conquering Iraq can decrease the UK's position. It may certainly give you more oil, but it won't affect the UK very much. They will simply buy oil from the USA and money means little in this game, so... This definitely will NOT decrease their IC. They will also NOT run out of oil, especially that they probably have big stockpiles. Remember, this is HOI3 we are talking about.

    The plan itself isn't so bad, though. It would definitely come as a surprise to the UK player, because in most MP games the Axis abandons Africa and don't bother with the Middle East very much until the Japanese knock on the Persian front door.

  15. #75
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt a human player would send the entire Med Fleet to save Malta, but the AI just might.
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  16. #76
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    I'm talking about the invasion of the Middle East. Most players probably feel quite safe in the Med and expect to crush Italy like a bug sooner or later. An invasion of Greece would only convince them that Italy is trying to improve its IC and resource position and support Germany in the East, not go south.

  17. #77
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    You are building more modern escorts, aren't you?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    I don't see how conquering Iraq can decrease the UK's position. It may certainly give you more oil, but it won't affect the UK very much.
    I concur--In order to buy oil the UK must sell supplies, but that's only going to cost them 2-3 IC's at most. Still, the last thing a UK player wants is to worry about $$$, and he'll likely be out for revenge at some point. :-)
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterbean View Post
    I seriously doubt a human player would send the entire Med Fleet to save Malta, but the AI just might.
    Sometimes the UK player puts fleets on auto-patrol, sometimes he controls them manually. I agree though--a veteran UK player who knows the naval aspects of the game is not going to have much problem with Italy. All we can do here is play-test some strategies on the AI.
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  20. #80
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinan View Post
    I concur--In order to buy oil the UK must sell supplies, but that's only going to cost them 2-3 IC's at most. Still, the last thing a UK player wants is to worry about $$$, and he'll likely be out for revenge at some point. :-)
    The UK probably has a resource surplus. All the player needs to do is to sell some resources for $ and buy some oil. He would probably have a big stockpile, too. I know, it suxx, but it works like that in HOI3.

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