Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Question about succesions

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings II 69868 Bug Reports 19707 User Modifications 10588 Suggestions 5969 Tech Support 6361 After Action Reports
Show only dev responses
Spectacle said:
Ok, so by "borders" you mean something else than the lines displayed on the map, showing where one realm ends and another begins?
Click to expand...

I'm talking about provinces and how they're divided. The Duchy of Normandy is set to be a possession of the Kingdom of France. Regardless of who actually controls it, France still has rights over it. They have the ability to take actions to reclaim it, and they have the ability to pass laws which will affect the duchy. As mentioned previously, the developers have said that kingdom laws affect every duchy in the kingdom regardless of who actually owns the duchy.

nyah said:
from dev diary 3

"Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control"
Click to expand...
 
In this screenshot we see how Normandy is explicitly labeled "England" with a border drawn between it and the rest of France. Are you sure you understand the difference between "de facto" and "de jure"?
 
Spectacle said:
In this screenshot we see how Normandy is explicitly labeled "England" with a border drawn between it and the rest of France. Are you sure you understand the difference between "de facto" and "de jure"?
Click to expand...

Do you understand how map modes work? Looks, the developers have right out said borders do not change. Would you like me to compile all of the quotes for you? I mean the one from above that was cited earlier apparently wasn't enough. The Kingdom of France can pass laws which will affect Normandy regardless of who actually controls Normandy.
 
So what do you call the line drawn between Normandy and France in the map I posted?
 
Spectacle said:
So what do you call the line drawn between Normandy and France in the map I posted?
Click to expand...

What Jia means is each province is programmed to be part of a a kingdom and a Duchy in the map-files. Somebody else can take control of Normandy, but the French retain rights there. This is what he means by de jure liege.

Exactly how far those rights go is unknown, but I'd be very surprised if the French King doesn't get an automatic claim (and thus a CB) on anyone in France who isn't a vassal of the King.

Nick
 
nyah said:
I think there was a difference between being a full vassal and owing homage to a king. The English kings owed homage to the French king for their Gascone provinces but were not his vassal.

I was wondering how the game would model an English duke becoming King of the Romans (or emperor of the HRE), as happened during the reign on Henry III, his brother Richard who was Duke of Cornwall was elected as KotR, but kept his Cornwall domains. There was no way Cornwall was part of the HRE and Richard still owned allegience to his brother Henry III (and fought for him against De Montfort), but there was no relationship between Henry and the HRE despite his vassal being it's ruler. I guess this is a one off situation that just won't happen in-game. Unless there are different succession laws for the kingship of the HRE and the duchy's owned by the king - elective law for the king and inherited law of some kind for the duchy?
Click to expand...

Probably depends on how they handle the King of the Romans title. I'm not sure it will be in-game at all. I'd assume that during times when the Imperial Crown descends by Elective Law it works the same as a King-title, and instead of electing a King of the Romans while the EMperor lives there'll hjust be another Imperial election.

If the King of the Romans title exists, and a Cornish Duke wins it, it's probable Cornwall will be part of the HRE on the map.

Nick
 
Nick B II said:
What Jia means is each province is programmed to be part of a a kingdom and a Duchy in the map-files. Somebody else can take control of Normandy, but the French retain rights there. This is what he means by de jure liege.

Exactly how far those rights go is unknown, but I'd be very surprised if the French King doesn't get an automatic claim (and thus a CB) on anyone in France who isn't a vassal of the King.

Nick
Click to expand...
I know, but that's something very different from "the borders never ever change" Of course the de facto borders will change, even if the de jure borders are hardcoded and eternal.

On a related note, the devs wrote that only the king can set the succession law, and it applies to the entire de jure kingdom. What if there is no king? Do the dukes set their own laws, or do they follow the law set by the last king? What if there never was a king?
 
I believe that the devs said in one of the DD's that you can also set succession laws for your demesne. This basically means that if you're the king you can set the laws for the kingdom title and your demesne separately. At least, that's how I interpret it.
 
PdoxLP said:
I believe that the devs said in one of the DD's that you can also set succession laws for your demesne. This basically means that if you're the king you can set the laws for the kingdom title and your demesne separately. At least, that's how I interpret it.
Click to expand...

wouldn't that be ridiculous? The Succession Law is the Law of the Land, the ruler can't just arbitrarily choose who gets to inherit what.
 
Spectacle said:
So what do you call the line drawn between Normandy and France in the map I posted?
Click to expand...

I would call it a map mode. You make the all of the Roman Catholic provinces turn the same colour too (with religious map mode) but that doesn't mean every Roman Catholic province is part of single country. In CK1 what you're describing was called realm map mode. Please refer to developer quotes and not screenshots where you get the wrong impression due to a lack of context.
 
Spectacle said:
On a related note, the devs wrote that only the king can set the succession law, and it applies to the entire de jure kingdom. What if there is no king? Do the dukes set their own laws, or do they follow the law set by the last king? What if there never was a king?
Click to expand...

Surely there will be default de jure laws present at the start of a game, whether the king title is held by somebody or not. De jure laws strike me as somewhat cultural, they set the "freedoms, rights and obligations of the estates". In other words, the power distribution you can tweak for every province in CKI. Now only the king can set those. De jure laws do NOT cover succession for dukes, counts and barons.

I believe that the devs said in one of the DD's that you can also set succession laws for your demesne. This basically means that if you're the king you can set the laws for the kingdom title and your demesne separately. At least, that's how I interpret it.
Click to expand...


As regards succession laws, it makes sense that the royal demesne is split up too. The king title is part of the demesne. One demesne in kingdom A and one in kingdom B.
 
Last edited:
InboxMadness said:
wouldn't that be ridiculous? The Succession Law is the Law of the Land, the ruler can't just arbitrarily choose who gets to inherit what.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood me or I didn't explain it well enough.

I can't find it right now but I distinctly remember someone (a dev or a previewer) saying that you can set the inheritance law for your own demesne (barony's, counties and duchies). And if you're a king you can also set the inheritance law for the kingdom title, and every kingdom title can have different laws even if ruled by the same person. This means that if you're a king you can have some sort of primogeniture for your lands while at the same time having an elective kingdom title.

But like I said, I might have completely misinterpreted it. I'll try to find quote.
 
Here it is:


Doomdark said:
[...]
in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws.
[...]
Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Click to expand...
 
I have a doubt, if im the duke of X which is part of kingdom Y but im vassal of kingdom Z the DD said that i still have to pay money to Y, the question is, i have to actually pay it, thus giving me the option of not doing it, or the money is automagically stolen from my chest? What gives me another question: if im duke of X again but this time vassal of Y, the scuttage money is automagically stolen too like in CKI? or i have the option to not paying it or in any case own debt (as ussualy happened in the period)?
 
Jia Xu said:
I would call it a map mode. You make the all of the Roman Catholic provinces turn the same colour too (with religious map mode) but that doesn't mean every Roman Catholic province is part of single country. In CK1 what you're describing was called realm map mode. Please refer to developer quotes and not screenshots where you get the wrong impression due to a lack of context.
Click to expand...
I think we're just been arguing semantics here. Would you at least agree that the border between realms can change, and that this is a de facto border, even if the borders of kingdoms don't change?
 
Spectacle said:
I think we're just been arguing semantics here. Would you at least agree that the border between realms can change, and that this is a de facto border, even if the borders of kingdoms don't change?
Click to expand...

Yes, if by realm you mean hegemony. We're not arguing semantics here. You seem to not understand how the game works because instead of reading the developer quotes you relied solely on a single map mode to obtain information. It's not even a de-facto border, because invading Normandy doesn't mean you've invaded England. When the Prussians conquered Hanover it didn't count as an invasion of Britain, now did it? It's because in this case, England and Normandy are in a relationship called a "personal union." Two countries, two governments, two sets of laws, one sovereign. This conversation started when you replied to a post of mine explaining that kingdom borders and the like do not change in game, in case you forgot.
 
We very much are arguing semantics, and if you can't recognize that I guess there's been no point at all to this discussion :) If the line between Normandy and France isn't a de facto border between the two realms then what the heck is it?!
 
Spectacle said:
We very much are arguing semantics, and if you can't recognize that I guess there's been no point at all to this discussion :) If the line between Normandy and France isn't a de facto border between the two realms then what the heck is it?!
Click to expand...

I sure do love repeating myself. It's a map mode.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back