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Thread: Question about succesions

  1. #61
    Now you're just being obtuse. A line is not a map mode. Look at the terrain mode screenshots and you'll see exactly the same lines, in the same places. What are those then? Just random scribbles on the map? I think they represent something, something important. What could it be?

    Since you like dev quotes, here's one for you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomdark View Post
    Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.
    Note how it explicitly mentions that de jure kingdoms are static and unchanging. This strongly implies that the above quote doesn't apply to de facto Kingdoms, no?

    Here's a couple of wiki articles you might find informative:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectacle View Post
    We very much are arguing semantics, and if you can't recognize that I guess there's been no point at all to this discussion If the line between Normandy and France isn't a de facto border between the two realms then what the heck is it?!
    it's the border between the possessions of two independent rulers

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectacle View Post
    Now you're just being obtuse. A line is not a map mode. Look at the terrain mode screenshots and you'll see exactly the same lines, in the same places. What are those then? Just random scribbles on the map? I think they represent something, something important. What could it be? Since you like dev quotes, here's one for you: Note how it explicitly mentions that de jure kingdoms are static and unchanging. This strongly implies that the above quote doesn't apply to de facto Kingdoms, no?

    Here's a couple of wiki articles you might find informative:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
    I notice that you like to fish for out of context examples to back up your broken argument. Your own links betray you, to be honest. You ignore the fact that the developers have also confirmed that the King of France can change laws for France and these changes will still affect Normandy even if its in the hands of the English king. How is that de jure exactly if the law change is enforced? Here's the quote in context:


    Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)
    The King of France is still the king in Normandy and has power over it even if the sovereign in the duchy is the King of England.
    Last edited by Jia Xu; 24-10-2011 at 23:03.

  4. #64
    The line between Normandy and France indicates a boundary of feudal obligation, but not of socioeconomic organization and custom. For the entirety of the game, the king of France's laws about the relations between the social stands and the privileges of each stand, in a general sense, will affect Normandy, since it is part of the de jure kingdom of France. However, as long as Normandy is the demesne of anyone who is not the king of France, the king of France cannot change the tax rate, levy size, or succession laws in Normandy. In addition, the French king can never raise levies from Normandy if he or one of his vassals does not rule the territory. That's the real meaning of those boundaries between independent realms; they delineate the areas of obligation to raise levies for a common ruler. Thus, in the case proposed, Normandy cannot be said to be de facto part of the kingdom of France, because if it were, the king of France could raise levies from it. It is, however, de jure part of the kingdom of France, and not part of the kingdom of England, because only the king of France can make the laws that change socioeconomic organization in Normandy.

    In no useful sense can you fairly say that the king in Normandy is the king of France, however, if the ruler of Normandy is the English king or a vassal thereof, since in the CKII setup there is only one liege per vassal. The king of France fulfills a role more like that of a cultural leader. Also, sovereign is an anachronistic word to be using for the eleventh century at any rate, and a better word would be suzerain.

  5. #65
    don't forget that the king of France will have a Casus Belli on Normandy's ass

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Jia Xu View Post
    I notice that you like to fish for out of context examples to back up your broken argument. Your own links betray you, to be honest. You ignore the fact that the developers have also confirmed that the King of France can change laws for France and these changes will still affect Normandy even if its in the hands of the English king. How is that de jure exactly if the law change is enforced? Here's the quote in context:

    Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)


    The King of France is still the king in Normandy and has power over it even if the sovereign in the duchy is the King of England.
    I am impressed at how easily you ignore that the very text you highlighted explicitly mentions that provinces of a kingdom can be de facto controlled by someone other than the king. I guess by your definition of de facto there can't be any de facto kingdoms in CK2, but I prefer to go by how the devs use the phrase. I hope that now you see that we have indeed been arguing semantics the entire time.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectacle View Post
    I am impressed at how easily you ignore that the very text you highlighted explicitly mentions that provinces of a kingdom can be de facto controlled by someone other than the king. I guess by your definition of de facto there can't be any de facto kingdoms in CK2, but I prefer to go by how the devs use the phrase. I hope that now you see that we have indeed been arguing semantics the entire time.
    I like how you talk about other people using semantics based arguments and then you focus on two words and ignore all of the context around them.

  8. #68
    Arguing semantics is not the same as using semantics based arguments.

  9. #69
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    Another succession question: When an AI dynasty dies out will a "country cousin" inherit as happens in CK1, or will the titles revert to a higher crown authority?

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Brannart View Post
    Another succession question: When an AI dynasty dies out will a "country cousin" inherit as happens in CK1, or will the titles revert to a higher crown authority?
    According to this thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ary-12-*Bonus*, CKII does have escheat.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajerio View Post
    According to this thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...ary-12-*Bonus*, CKII does have escheat.
    Which leaves the question of what happens when there isn't a liege for the title to escheat to. What happens if an Irish Duke dies without heirs? In 1066 there is no King of Ireland to take the land.

    Does an independent Duchy of Brittany escheat to France, or does it use some other mechanic?

    Nick

  12. #72
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    At 2:55 King talks about "English duke vs. French king" situation and I think it makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Which leaves the question of what happens when there isn't a liege for the title to escheat to. What happens if an Irish Duke dies without heirs? In 1066 there is no King of Ireland to take the land.

    Does an independent Duchy of Brittany escheat to France, or does it use some other mechanic?

    Nick
    I hope that a civil war breaks out in Irish duchy or maybe the succession law changes to elective and counts vote for their candidates?
    I am not sure about Brittany - is it really part of de iure kingdom of France? If so, it seems logical to me, that the french king gets the duchy.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by PreXident View Post



    I hope that a civil war breaks out in Irish duchy or maybe the succession law changes to elective and counts vote for their candidates?
    I am not sure about Brittany - is it really part of de iure kingdom of France? If so, it seems logical to me, that the french king gets the duchy.
    I really hope Brittany isn't part of France, since it wasn't until the 15th century that it was tied to the French crown and the 16th century when it was finally incorporated. I mean it's even still fully independent at the start of EU3!

  14. #74
    Every province has to be part of a de jure kingdom though, and since Brittany was never a kingdom historically I'm 99% sure it will be considered part of France.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectacle View Post
    Every province has to be part of a de jure kingdom though, and since Brittany was never a kingdom historically I'm 99% sure it will be considered part of France.
    If it's the case in the vanilla, I expect it will be modded in no time after the release ;-)
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by PreXident View Post
    I hope that a civil war breaks out in Irish duchy or maybe the succession law changes to elective and counts vote for their candidates?
    But if there aren't any claimants whose fighting the Civil War? Generally you need at least two claiments to have one of those.

    Elective law is probably the most sensible solution.

    Altho now that I think about it Ireland may already be under Elective law. Their historical system (tanistry) meant the dynasty elected an heir within the current ruler's lifetime. Frequently various branches of the family would take turns being leader. The least bad options are Elective and Seniority. Elective is problematic because in many of those Duchies it's not uncommon for the Duke to only have one vassal, and if he votes for himself you'll get an ahistorical dynasty change.

    Quote Originally Posted by PreXident View Post
    I am not sure about Brittany - is it really part of de iure kingdom of France? If so, it seems logical to me, that the french king gets the duchy.
    Brittany is part of France because Paradox won't allow any provinces to be in the Kingdom of None, it's way too small to be it's own King-title, and it doesn't fit anywhere else.

    You're probably right about the King getting it. That's probably what would happen IRL if the Duke of Anjou rebelled, technically becoming independent, and died without heirs.

    Nick

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    But if there aren't any claimants whose fighting the Civil War? Generally you need at least two claiments to have one of those.
    I meant civil war between vassals, sort of deathmatch where everyone battles everyone, but I guess this kind of war where low titled rulers fight over high title (which could temporarily disappear during this war?) will not be supported by the engine. Changing the law to elective sounds indeed better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Elective is problematic because in many of those Duchies it's not uncommon for the Duke to only have one vassal, and if he votes for himself you'll get an ahistorical dynasty change.
    Fortunately the old ruler gets to vote too, so the question is what happens if the outcome of the election is a tie. I would think the ruler has a deciding vote, but who knows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Brittany is part of France because Paradox won't allow any provinces to be in the Kingdom of None, it's way too small to be it's own King-title, and it doesn't fit anywhere else.
    That's true, but I think they also said somewhere you can mod it so that a province is not part of any kingdom. Thus it is worth of thinking what would happen for the sake of mods.
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  18. #78
    I think that title should go to the king if the duke of brittany is vassal of king of france, otherwise it must go to a cousin or something, a vassal or court member of the duke or as a last option to a ramdon generated character
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  19. #79
    I think that if there no successor to a the highest Liege (King of England, Duke of Brittany), there shouldn't be a successor and the Breton counts get independence.
    If a independent county lost their dynasty, the county should change to a republic. Of course a vassal title should go to the Liege.
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  20. #80
    Folding to the crown should literally be among the last things to happen. It's very rare nobody has somebody to succeed them to begin with, so basically you should hardly ever see it happen.

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