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Thread: Shadow of the Andes - An Interactive Chilean AAR

  1. #8881
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OConner View Post
    Father Zarenta, growing tired of the political squabbles and instability of Chile, has left for Africa, where he intends to do some real good.
    Too bad. I was just about to send Father Zarenta a private correspondence in the intention of naming him archbishop, myself tired of the ecclesiastical job. Maybe this "Third Way" politician is interested?

    Quote Originally Posted by yourworstnightm View Post
    The only reason I can think of why the right want a 100% partisan army is because they plan a coup.
    Has it not come to mind we are doing the opposite, avoiding a coup from a left that is tired of "persecution" (losing the elections, that is)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    A military under the monolithic power of a single political ideology/bloc
    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
    As I understand, the military proposed by the President is of different ideologies, with the objective of avoiding what you say. Read the suggestions; there are liberals, left-inclining independents, conservative republicanos and hardcore reactionaries. The original plan included General Rios himself leading the Army of the Republic, hence it's vacancy, but he didn't lose the CoS race as expected. Ask him yourself, all of this is real.

    Read for yourself, the original plan:

    Army of Arica - Colonel de Porto ((Zagoroth)) ((liberal?))
    Army of Patagonia – General Hidalgo ((MastahCheef)) ((reactionary))
    Army of the Republic – General Rios ((rudders10)) ((socialist))
    Metropolitan Army – Colonel Rivera ((AtomicSoda)) ((conservative))
    Panama Canal Garrison - General Adrian ((Lyonessian)) (("third way" nationalist))
    Navy and Marine Force - Admiral Alvarez ((Gloa)) ((independent))
    Capital Guard
    Last edited by thekinguter; 25-02-2012 at 20:20.
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  2. #8882
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekinguter View Post
    As I understand, the military proposed by the President is of different ideologies, with the objective of avoiding what you say. Read the suggestions; there are liberals, left-inclining independents, conservative republicanos and hardcore reactionaries. The original plan included General Rios himself leading the Army of the Republic, hence it's vacancy, but he didn't lose the CoS race as expected. Ask him yourself, all of this is real.
    There was only a sole liberal in the appointment proposed by (and which are currently being attempted to be forcibly implemented by the President) De Conti and that was solely because there is no other Admiral in Chile. As well, there were no Leftists in that proposal at all. De Conti's military proposal creates a military under the monolithic power of a single political ideology/bloc.

    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
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  3. #8883
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourworstnightm View Post
    The only reason I can think of why the right want a 100% partisan army is because they plan a coup.
    I would be condemning you out of hand if it were not for the fact that de Conti has still failed to explain why he would replace you with de Porto, and I cannot think of any other reason for doing this (and keeping it secret) apart from what you suggest. I am not accusing the President of planning a coup, but if it were to be taken to a court of law, the prosecution would certainly have a case.
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  4. #8884
    "It is times like this when I lose faith in our current system. With the left attempting to subdue our soldiers and tarnish the good reputation of our Presidente, only dark times can be ahead."

    -Crown Prince Daniel Jesus Roseno

  5. #8885
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    There was only a sole liberal in the appointment proposed by (and which are currently being attempted to be forcibly implemented by the President) De Conti and that was solely because there is no other Admiral in Chile. As well, there were no Leftists in that proposal at all. De Conti's military proposal creates a military under the monolithic power of a single political ideology/bloc.

    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
    Read again my statement, I provided a list of the generals the president wanted to appoint. And you trated the cabinet as monolithic. Let's read my statement again and a list of cabinet members and their ideologies, shall we?


    CABINET
    Minister of the Interior - Caitan Crazzio ((cavebear3000)) ((liberal)
    Minister of the Treasury – Augusto de Santa Rosa ((Riccardo93)) ((liberal))
    Minister of Foreign Affairs - Archbishop Jaime Fernandez ((kinguter)) ((reactionary))
    Minister of Defence – Matteo Saez ((Seek75)) ((reactionary))
    Minister without Portfolio - Ernesto Fuentes ((Maxwell500)) ((conservative?))
    ARMY
    Army of Arica - Colonel de Porto ((Zagoroth)) ((liberal?))
    Army of Patagonia – General Hidalgo ((MastahCheef)) ((reactionary))
    Army of the Republic – General Rios ((rudders10)) ((socialist))
    Metropolitan Army – Colonel Rivera ((AtomicSoda)) ((conservative))
    Panama Canal Garrison - General Adrian ((Lyonessian)) (("third way" nationalist))
    Navy and Marine Force - Admiral Alvarez ((Gloa)) ((independent))
    Capital Guard
    Yeah, too bad the army and the cabinet are both reactionary. Sarcastically speaking, of course.
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  6. #8886
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    First of all, I was solely talking about the army and secondly, those are not the Army appointments as proposed by De Conti. I fail to comprehend how you have managed to so completely miss my point.

    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
    "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling." —Shynka

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  7. #8887
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    Please, do not insult my intelligence. I am the president's chief advisor, and a minister of the cabinet. I had discussed this matter previously with the president and that IS the original proposal the president made. The only change was removing General Rios, as the CoS can't lead troops, and replacing it with Ferrari, the former chief of staff.

    Also to note:

    1) The only three relevant liberals in Chilean politics are in the army and cabinet.
    2) There are only two conservatives, members of the president's party. If he sought to impose a monolithic blob, he would've appointed members of his own ideology.
    3) Only 1/3 of the cabinet and army are reactionary/nationalist, instead of 100% like you have previously stated.
    4) It has been the most diverse cabinet and army in decades.
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  8. #8888
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    I'm sorry Sir, but where are you getting your supposed De Conti Army Proposal from?
    As far as I know, this is it:

    Army of Arica ((18 brigades (10inf 6art 2cav))) - General Ferrari ((King5000))
    Army of Patagonia ((18 brigades (10inf 6art 2cav))) – General Hidalgo ((MastahCheef))
    Army of the Republic ((20 brigades (12inf 6art 2cav)) – Colonel de Porto ((Zagoroth))
    Metropolitan Army ((18 brigades (10inf 2art 2cav)) – Colonel Rivera ((AtomicSoda))
    Panama Canal Garrison ((8 brigades (5inf 3art)) - General Adrian ((Lyonessian))
    Navy and Marine Force ((6 brigades (5inf 1art)) - Admiral Alvarez ((Gloa))
    Capital Guard ((12 brigades (9inf 3art))
    You seem to be pulling facts out of thin air if I may say so.

    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
    Last edited by Dyranum; 25-02-2012 at 20:50.
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  9. #8889
    El Presidente of Tropico & etc Ivir Baggins's Avatar
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  10. #8890
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyranum View Post
    I'm sorry Sir, but where are you getting your supposed De Conti Army Proposal from?
    As far as I know, this is it:



    You seem to be pulling facts out of thin air if I may say so.

    - General Remedio Hakkihääleni
    And you seem to be very short sighted, sir. I clearly said:

    Quote Originally Posted by thekinguter View Post
    The only change was removing General Rios, as the CoS can't lead troops, and replacing it with Ferrari, the former chief of staff.
    And the only difference between the list you gave me and mine, is that in yours General Rios is removed and replaced by Ferrari, just like I said.

    And apparently I hadn't seen this before, but De Porto and Ferrari then swaped armies.
    No new general has been introduced aside from Ferrari, a reliable republicano.

    If in doubt, please read again:

    YOUR LIST
    Army of Arica ((18 brigades (10inf 6art 2cav))) - General Ferrari ((King5000))
    Army of Patagonia ((18 brigades (10inf 6art 2cav))) – General Hidalgo ((MastahCheef))
    Army of the Republic ((20 brigades (12inf 6art 2cav)) – Colonel de Porto ((Zagoroth))
    Metropolitan Army ((18 brigades (10inf 2art 2cav)) – Colonel Rivera ((AtomicSoda))
    Panama Canal Garrison ((8 brigades (5inf 3art)) - General Adrian ((Lyonessian))
    Navy and Marine Force ((6 brigades (5inf 1art)) - Admiral Alvarez ((Gloa))
    Capital Guard ((12 brigades (9inf 3art))

    MY LIST
    Army of Arica - Colonel de Porto ((Zagoroth)) ((liberal?))
    Army of Patagonia – General Hidalgo ((MastahCheef)) ((reactionary))
    Army of the Republic – General Rios ((rudders10)) ((socialist))
    Metropolitan Army – Colonel Rivera ((AtomicSoda)) ((conservative))
    Panama Canal Garrison - General Adrian ((Lyonessian)) (("third way" nationalist))
    Navy and Marine Force - Admiral Alvarez ((Gloa)) ((independent))
    Capital Guard
    -Archbishop Fernandez, minister of foreign affairs.
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  11. #8891
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    My point still stands.

    - General Remedio Hakkihäälenin
    "No matter how alone you feel, Dyranum is always there to point out how utterly terrible you are at spelling." —Shynka

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  12. #8892
    El Presidente of Tropico & etc Ivir Baggins's Avatar
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  13. #8893
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  14. #8894
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    Are we seriously trying to determine whether the COS or presidente planned a Coup based on appointments? This is a waste of time. Both of them chose people of different parties. If some are not included, its probably because there were not military men available to do so.

    I also find it interesting to be labeled as Liberale. It certainly has its more violent connotations now, as does Communisto, but I would probably establish myself as an ardent supporter of the stable state over liberal, or any other party intentions.

    I agree with the honorable Archbishop, I do not see anything to be suspicious about.
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  15. #8895
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivir Baggins View Post
    "I believe that Hakkihäälenin is suffering from a severe case of disappointment."

    Severiano Miramontes
    Senor Miramontes has just hit the nail on the head.

    The Left, having been so utterly rejected by the electorate, were left with an outcome offensive to them: a patriotic government of Christian values, ready to serve the people for five glorious years. A landslide victory for conservatism and a pitiful showing for radicalism only incensed them further. Faced with a promising presidency, they were left with only one alternative: to overshadow our victory by immediately sparking a constitutional crisis that would consume all attention. Compared to their absolute failure at the election, at this they have been highly successful. Even the war with Argentina - which was reduced from triumph to disaster due to their constitutional coup - was marginalised by the crisis. Thousands of men died on the fields of Argentina for the malice of a few men in Congreso. The nation has been torn asunder to soothe the egos of bitter politicians.

    Unable to accommodate the fact that the people found fault with their party, the Marxistas must conjure up myths and fairy tales to justify their defeat. When the truth is so painful to accept, they readily resort to fiction. So now I am apparently a dictator and a tyrant, and Rios a hero of the Republic - even though it is he who had thrown the country into the chaos which lead thousands of soldiers to their deaths, all a result of his illicit behaviour and failure to adhere to his mandate as Chief of Staff. I am an opponent of democracy - even though democracy delivered me a stunning victory not seen since the days of Senor de Santa Rosa, and delivered to the Marxistas a complete rejection of their party. I am a confederate conspirator, plotting the downfall of the Republic - even though it is Rios who has appointed his cronies to the capital armies, positioned them adjacent to Santiago and signalled his seditious intentions to statesmen across the country. I am the enemy of the people - even though the people chose me, and not my opponents, to lead our nation for five years of peace and prosperity. Five years of peace and prosperity, lost to the jealousy of a disgruntled faction.

    I do not need the mandate of force to achieve power, members of Congreso. I enjoy something far more potent - the support of the people. The Marxistas must threaten me with their armies and their rhetoric, because - having been decisively crushed at the ballot box - they have nothing left. How strange that the self-styled ‘party of the people’ should so determinedly oppose the government that the people chose.

    - President Charles Maximilien de Conti
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  16. #8896
    El Presidente of Tropico & etc Ivir Baggins's Avatar
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    "Thank you very much for that oration, Presidente; but can we have some governing now?"

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  17. #8897
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Ah, Mister President.
    A very funny claim there, that the disaster of Argentin was caused by Leftists. That was caused by incompetent Generals. Despite how much we were in opposition to it, neither I nor Gonzales would have refused our orders - that is, if we had actually been ordered to do anything. Also, I find your unoriginal attempts at wordplay most unfunny.

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  18. #8898
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    This political squabbling is proof that the current political parties are merely greedy men seeking to expand their own power. They are so bitterly divided over a simple thing like army appointments. This is unacceptable, as the people of Chile will suffer as long as this squabbling continues. It also shows the horrid amounts of foreign infiltration into Chilean politics. This is unacceptable!

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  19. #8899
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    You should look in the mirror, de Conti, to find the hypocrite hiding behind a false image of popular will. The people you so look down upon voted Rios Chief of Staff, and you are seeking to overturn his appointments, effectively annuling their vote.

    Fifty plus percent of the Senate does not make a plurality of the electorate. Rios has done nothing to undermine the people's vote, neither has Haakalein. It is you! Rios is exercising the power given to him by the people when they elected him chief of staff - it is you who are stealing his powers, you are making the election of Rios meaningless.

    Considering you both had to be elected by popular vote, if the Congres can with a simple majority overrule Rios' appointments, then the same can be done to a President's ministerial appointments. You steal Rios' elected duties with a Senate majority of rightists today, I will make sure your opponents due the same to a rightist government next time they control the Senate instead. That is the path you have set up for Chile.

    The duties of a Chief of Staff, until the Chief of Staff position is abolished in-between elected terms, are just as sacred as those of the President. You have violated those, and thus opened up a can of worms - you have done for more Senate power than any other president in history - now the Senate will rule, left or right, not the Presidente.

    This is the bed the right has made, and let none of us ever forget to let future Presidents sleep in it.

    So remember Congreso! Next time a rival wins the presidency, just put forward an emergency bill overriding his ministerial apponitments or his other decisions; after all, it is often the case that in the Congreso there are parties more willing to agree on legislation together than are willing to endorse joint candidates in presidential elections.

    If we let you overrule the Chief of Staff through the Congreso now, De Conti, then we will be obligated to use the same Congressional power against presidents in the future; for the sake of constitutional balance and consistency.

    This is what you wanted, the elitist Senate overruling the people's vote.
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  20. #8900
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    If I had been sent to Argentina there wouldn't have been a disastrous humiliation against the Argentinian reserves. I am surprised the right even managed to win the war, considering how much they feared the big, bad Argentinians.
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