Shadow of the Andes - An Interactive Chilean AAR

EDIT: ((Lol, Andonie has a dog.))

Syriana said:

I would similarly endorse the Liberal-Republicano alliance. We are parties of perpetual peace and prosperity - united by a common cause.

The common Chilean makes his voice heard by the ballot box, Senor Gogołów. That you treat the unions and the people as being synonymous merely verifies my point. The men of industry are also the people, with the same rights to unfettered liberty and prosperity. You ask me what Chile would be without unions; I ask you what Chile would be without entrepreneurs. The workers are the spine of the economy, and the industrialists are the brain. One cannot function without the other. Moreover, one should not be shackled in the other's name. The affluence of the worker and the industrialist are intertwined. To harm one is to harm the other.

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Do I treat the unions and the people as being synonymous? When did I state so? You should stop fabricating lies to slander my name and reputation. What I have said, is that the union is an important tool of the worker. I also do not understand what your statement of "The men of industry are also the people, with the same rights to unfettered liberty and prosperity" is supposed to counter. I did say so, so I do not understand why you would confirm my point when the rest of your statement is filled with mud-slinging.

And now, why do you say that the workers have no brain? The workers are very capable of managing themselves. They can be both the spine and brain of the economy. In fact, the workers are the economy. "Industrialists", as you like to call them, are not necessarily needed. And you cannot deny the unbalance in the income of the Chilean worker - who does all the work - and the capitalists, who does no work and tends to already come from the upper class, meaning even less work.

I approve of the self-determination of the worker. I do not approve of the oppression of the worker by the upper class.

Syriana said:

Torturous, Senor Carnal? How can a policy of leaving the average entrepreneur free to invest and develop as he pleases be construed as torture? Indeed, I would think it torturous to shackle these men with red-tape and deprive them of the businesses and corporations that are the product of their labours. You would appoint bureaucrats with no economic qualifications to control and manage our industries of greatest economic import. You would riddle our economy with slavish commissaires, ignorant but loyal, who care not for ensuring the prosperity of Chile but merely towing the party line. The common man - in whose name you invoke these illiberal policies - will not be strengthened, but suppressed, as the economy is brought grinding to a halt by mismanagement and bureaucracy.

These Marxist economics will sound the death knell of our competitiveness abroad, and our affluence at home.

- V. Severino

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((Um, you do know that the USSR doesn't exist right now (and probably never will)? There are no commissaries. In fact, no such thing as OTL Soviet policies have happened. Before you counter: there is nothing in the Manifesto which speaks of a need to appoint commissaries to oversee workers.))

"If I am elected Chief of Staff, I will do my utmost to ensure the security of Chile from hostile threats, be they internal or external. I will ensure that the armed forces are commanded only by military personnel with adequate experience. I do not want to see an army divided by party loyalties. For soldiers, their duty should only be to Chile."

Severiano Miramontes

Ivir Baggins said:

"Apart from economic policy, Carnal, what other policies do you have?"

Severiano Miramontes

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If you notice good sir, he did not even answer your last question....

"He said that he has a steady industrial program in mind. I want details of that, so that I can know if it benefits Chile."

Severiano Miramontes

Red Cesar said:

"I have a steady industrialization plan already in mind, General Miramontes. And, Senor Severino, it is torturous to allow capitalists, aristocrats, and landlords alike to continue to abuse, and underpay their workers and farmers at the rates they are going at now. It is absurd. The conditions in the factories, the conditions in the homes of the workers, are atrocious, while the capitalists sit easy on their hill, in their mansions, sipping on the finest champagne money can buy. The common man is SICK of being a tool! And no, I will not appoint "unqualified bureaucrats" to positions to run the economy or keep party line, I will appoint industrial experts, who will make sure our industry is running at peak efficiency, while also supporting the well being of the worker. Stop your flagrant assaults and lies, Senor Severino."

-Senator Carlos Carnal

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And your plan is Sir, I did not see a plan there but another Socialist rant at the evils of capatilism. It is easy to sit there and complain but at the moment Chile has a thriving economy and the workers are benefiting from this. You fail to say why you would change this and how. After being Minister for the Treasury the past years I see only improvements in Chile for all, not any one class.

Carlos Andonie

Senor Severiano Miramontes,

I applaud your desire to learn more about my opponent. For the ability to hear contrasting views is what we fought for in the past. I would ask though, what have I done, or which of my policies do you so dislike that you are considering moving from the Republicanos to vote for the Socilaists?

Carlos Andonie

"May I just ask, Senor, what policies do you have regarding the betterment of the people's welfare?"

Severiano Miramontes

That sounds suitably vague, Senor Carnal.

You have still yet to display that you can impartially assess the economy overall, rather than from the narrow viewpoint of labour. There is only one outcome when ideology clashes with economics - disaster. Any financial minister must balance the needs and interests of the working and entrepreneurial classes, in order to uphold the decency of the former while preserving the liberty of the latter. Your proposal would extirpate that liberty - which is the very core of progressive capitalism. Will the worker's welcome their 'liberation' from the capitalists when they are merely supplanted by bureaucrats, twice as uncaring and half as qualified?

Moreover, I am sceptical of your claim that you will appoint industrial experts, when everything you have said professes to a deep distrust - nay, a vehement hatred - of said industrialists. You have slandered the entire entrepreneurial class as a collection of aloof aristocrats, working their labourers like slaves while gorging themselves on pheasant and champagne. Yet many of these men were once no more than workers themselves, having risen to the highest financial strata through sheer determination, unfettered by the hand of government. The industrialists are as much a component of our economy as the workers are, Senor Carnal. They have transformed Chile from a backwater former colony to a financial powerhouse. If you cannot even pretend to be concerned with their interests, then I can only fear for our country.

- V. Severino

((What about CoS?))

((but but but President Cortez is best president! ))

Dyranum said:

EDIT: ((Lol, Andonie has a dog.))

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((For a moment there, I thought you meant me.))

Dyranum said:

Do I treat the unions and the people as being synonymous? When did I state so? You should stop fabricating lies to slander my name and reputation. What I have said, is that the union is an important tool of the worker. I also do not understand what your statement of "The men of industry are also the people, with the same rights to unfettered liberty and prosperity" is supposed to counter. I did say so, so I do not understand why you would confirm my point when the rest of your statement is filled with mud-slinging.

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It is not a lie to merely restate what you yourself have said, Senor. You said that the unions were the means by which the common Chilean was represented, thus equating the unions with the people. I retorted that the common man exercises his voice through the ballot box, not his union. As for my comments in regards to the men of industry, it is in response to your leader's dangerous disregard for the rights and liberties of all men, not just the workers. He seems to consider only the workers to be the 'true' people of Chile, which strikes me as being profoundly undemocratic.

Dyranum said:

And now, why do you say that the workers have no brain? The workers are very capable of managing themselves. They can be both the spine and brain of the economy. In fact, the workers are the economy. "Industrialists", as you like to call them, are not necessarily needed. And you cannot deny the unbalance in the income of the Chilean worker - who does all the work - and the capitalists, who does no work and tends to already come from the upper class, meaning even less work.

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And now it is your turn to lie, Senor, for I said no such thing. I said that the industrialists were the brains of the economy, as the workers were the spine. A worker manages himself, but he does not manage his corporation. Does the work secure investment for the company? Does he hire and discharge labourers? Does he decide on the daily management of the company? Does he issue the pay to its labour force? No - all of these are done by the industrialists, who you claim to be unnecessary. The capitalists put in as much effort to secure the success of their company as the worker does to support it. Only in tandem can two factions create the conditions for a thriving economy. To remove one is to sow the seeds of ruin and chaos.

- V. Severino

Dyranum said:

((Um, you do know that the USSR doesn't exist right now (and probably never will)? There are no commissaries. In fact, no such thing as OTL Soviet policies have happened. Before you counter: there is nothing in the Manifesto which speaks of a need to appoint commissaries to oversee workers.))

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((Commissaires, not commissars. During the French Revolution, commissaires were officials who reported back to the political authorities. Hence why I use them as a term for party bureaucrats.))

President: Carnal

- Pablo Garcia, Trade Unionist

President: Andonie
Army Chief of Staff: Roseno

Viva la alianza Liberal-Republicano!

- V. Severino

((EDIT: Changed my vote for CoS back to Roseno/King.))

"May I just ask why you prefer Roseno as Chief of Staff? I do not entirely see your reasoning behind that."

Severiano Miramontes

It is not a reflection on yourself, General Miramontes, but merely a reflection of the fact that I am more acquainted with General Roseno and can thus can form more of an opinion on him. Moreover, he was deprived of military command in the latest army reshuffle, so I feel it only prudent that he should be duly compensated with the position of Chief of Staff this time around. I have no reason to doubt your abilities or qualifications for the task, and I would see you happily retained as commander of the Army of Patagonia following the conclusion of this election.

- V. Severino

Syriana said:

It is not a lie to merely restate what you yourself have said, Senor. You said that the unions were the means by which the common Chilean was represented, thus equating the unions with the people. I retorted that the common man exercises his voice through the ballot box, not his union. As for my comments in regards to the men of industry, it is in response to your leader's dangerous disregard for the rights and liberties of all men, not just the workers. He seems to consider only the workers to be the 'true' people of Chile, which strikes me as being profoundly undemocratic.

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How many times do I have to say this? I said that the unions were an important tool of the worker. Not that they were the only tool.
Also, there is no "leader" of FNT. You express a clear and profound ignorance of FNT politics. Yes, Carnal is the current FNT nominee, but that does not make him an absolute ruler over the FNT. The FNT is a democratic organisation, not a dictatorship. So, bringing the arguments of Carnal into this little "debate" is not relevant to the matter at hand. In fact, it is irrelevant. You may see all socialistas as the same, but that is not so. There are profound differences between Carnal and myself.

Syriana said:

And now it is your turn to lie, Senor, for I said no such thing. I said that the industrialists were the brains of the economy, as the workers were the spine. A worker manages himself, but he does not manage his corporation. Does the work secure investment for the company? Does he hire and discharge labourers? Does he decide on the daily management of the company? Does he issue the pay to its labour force? No - all of these are done by the industrialists, who you claim to be unnecessary. The capitalists put in as much effort to secure the success of their company as the worker does to support it. Only in tandem can two factions create the conditions for a thriving economy. To remove one is to sow the seeds of ruin and chaos.

- V. Severino

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It is not a lie to merely restate what you yourself have said, Señor. You implied that the workers were only the spine. That they cannot do no more than that. The worker does not manage his corporation because he is never allowed to.

Syriana said:

((Commissaires, not commissars. During the French Revolution, commissaires were officials who reported back to the political authorities. Hence why I use them as a term for party bureaucrats.))

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((Oh. Still not a marxist policy though.))

President: Carlos Andonie
Army Chief of Staff: Severiano Miramontes

I highly approve of the Liberale-Republicano alliance. Doing so will strengthen not only the political front but the very fabric of the people of this great Nation as well.

- Co. Manuel Hidalgo