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Thread: Shadow of the Andes - An Interactive Chilean AAR

  1. #8041
    Lt. General atomicsoda's Avatar
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    Senor de Santa Rosa,

    How would you propose that those whose lands were taken be compensated. I feel the fairest way is to have those who received these lands pay a fair price for them. The only other alternative is to not compensate the landowners or to have the taxpayers foot the bill. Both of which I feel are unfair. An injustice was committed and it must be rectified. As someone who believes in property rights and the rule of law, I would think that this proposal would be something you would support as it makes the best of a bad situation.

    Pedro Rivera
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  2. #8042
    General Riccardo93's Avatar
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    A good question, and with an elusive answer.

    I am naturally supportive of property rights, but I also feel that the poor of our society need to have land and an incentive to be active (and not radicalized to the far left). I would say we give form a mediation group, which would help create compromises between the two sides, the landed aristocracy and the peasants, to find an equitable deal between the two groups that would create equitable deals for both sides. We would be involved in these contracts only so as to ensure they are fair and are met.

    Certainly not a perfect solution, but I feel it is a fair resolution.
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  3. #8043
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    Quote Originally Posted by friget234 View Post
    How dare you insult our traditions and how dare you imply that we cannot modernize when it is perfectly within our capabilities. The problem is that my people are not fully recognized as the human beings that we are hence the need for legislation. Also the left in Chile is the only political faction that has shown us kindness and recognized us as equals.
    Most venerable chief you misunderstand me! I am all for the equality of all races! Any legislation that keeps you from full citizenship is morally wrong and must be dealt with promptly. Truly these laws must be a carry over from the days when we were all subjects of the Spanish.

    That being said, I would urge your people to put down your spears and pick up some wrenches and screwdrivers. While the future is a bright place for industrialized nations and society, I shudder to think at what will become of the backward societies that shy away from this progress.

    ---Caitan Crazzio---
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  4. #8044
    The aboriginal peoples of Chile propose the following legislation in following with Chile`s proud tradition of freedom

    The Equality Act

    -The aboriginal peoples of Chile shall be entitled to all the rights of man included in the constitution of Chile including but not limited to
    - The right to practice their religion
    - The right to vote
    - The right to bear arms and to serve in the military

    - The aboriginal peoples of Chile shall be permited use of their langauge in the practicing of their religion

    -The gouvernment of Chile shall diplomaticly encourage other nations to recognize their aboriginal inhabitants as well as other minorities as has been proclaimed in this act

    Also the Mapuche peoples find the view of certain clearly misinformed members of Chile that we are threatening others with spears to pass this act a clear offense and we believe those with such thaughts should visit their local doctor immediatly to make sure they have not taken complete leave of their senses
    "Never has so much been surrendered by so many to so few"
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  5. #8045
    General Riccardo93's Avatar
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    I agree with everything except the nation within a nation part. Everything else, I support.
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  6. #8046
    "In accordance with Marxist belief that all people have the right to self determination, I wholeheartedly support this piece of legislation, and urge members of The CCP to do so as well."

    -Comrade Armando Renin

  7. #8047
    In retrospect the nation within a nation bit is too much to ask and has been removed.
    "Never has so much been surrendered by so many to so few"
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  8. #8048
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    An alternate solution would be to have the government pay indemnities to those who lost their lands. We have a large treasury and a high GDP. Instead of Severely hampering our economy by having hundreds of thousands of small landowners (farmers) paying lots of money for a theft they didnt commit. It isnt fair to charge them after the government gave them the lands for free. The government has to pay, unfortunatly a different administration will have to pay for the socialists' bills.

    Now on the issue of mapuche pockets in the middle of an industrialized great power: they currently have no legal status. They survive in autonomous communities in the mountains, living of the wilderness. They do not produce anything useful like the farmers do. They do not pay taxes (yet) or provide recruits for the armed forces. They do not elect representatives in congress and only choose the leaders of their tribes. If it were not for the new spokesman of their tribe then we would have not known of their situation.

    I suggest a joint solution for both problems: those redistributed farms producing less than 300 pesos a month by mismanagement will be returned to their owners. All other farms producing more than 300 pesos a month will keep their lands and the government will have to compensate the previous owner. All farms not producing or producing less than 50 pesos a month (by drought, abandonment or mismanagement) will be handed to the chiefs of the native tribes. The tribes will have to pay taxes and registrate their tribesmen to the nearest government office.
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  9. #8049
    indeed but since the Chilean forays into our lands following the Occupation of the Araucanía ((note vic 2 doesnt rep this but it can be assumed it happend)) we have been forced to adapt to the new nation we now find ouselves in.
    "Never has so much been surrendered by so many to so few"
    -British opinion of the Italian army in North Africa during WW2

  10. #8050
    As a reminder no OOC statements whatsoever are currently allowed in the thread.
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  11. #8051
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    I know, but by inserting your people into the market you will be in a severe disadvantage. Most of mapuche villages in existance are isolated and can't speak Spanish and are illiterate. They haven't been given a proper Chilean education in either a private chuch school or a state school, but have been given a different kind of education. Most of the mapuche tribes live off what they find or the little they have, and would find trouble farming or producing goods.

    And the redistribution of land didn't go 100% good. There are a minority of farms that didn't produce enough and were abandoned, and others that are neting negative income to its owners. While many farms are prospering under the discovery of new farming techniques, some were abandoned when the seasons were drier or when the cows were thin.

    Therefore it's okay if we give them mapuches the lands that were abandoned after the redistribution of the land. That way we can maxime efficiency in our rural landscape, and we can also give the mapuche jobs, so that they don't become unemployed in the cities.

    Oh, and Mr. Curiñancu: Chile's national independence day is the 18th of September.
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  12. #8052
    Second Lieutenant OldCleric's Avatar
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    A quick note to all members of the Congreso:

    During this current election year, I have quietly run for Upper House senator in the small province of Magallanes. I will thusly be adbicating as mayor of Talagante to assume my new post in the representative body.

    In regards to the two bills recently introduced:

    I would like to urge my compatriots in the Congreso Nacional to join me in requesting change in President Rivera's bill. It is not the wont of true Republicanos to force tax hikes, or to spend money from the government on such matters. We must find another way to reimburse those who have clearly been wronged.

    Regarding the bill introduced by the honorable Mapuche parliamentarian: I support the integration of the Mapuche into Chile. However, any autonomy must be now and forever surrendered. Additionally, I will not support a call for aboriginal recognition, as it is a non-effect in the proposition. If you become citizens of Chile, then you are not aboriginals; you are Chileans, and thus anyone who recognizes Chile recognizes her citizens.

    In summary,

    I will not support Presidente Rivera's land compensation act in its current form

    To a lesser extent, the same is true for the Mapuche integration bill.


    Faithfully,

    Senator Alejandro Ruiz de Escovedo
    "Après moi, le déluge"

  13. #8053
    Lt. General atomicsoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCleric View Post
    [I]A quick note to all members of the Congreso:


    I would like to urge my compatriots in the Congreso Nacional to join me in requesting change in President Rivera's bill. It is not the wont of true Republicanos to force tax hikes, or to spend money from the government on such matters. We must find another way to reimburse those who have clearly been wronged.

    Faithfully,

    Senator Alejandro Ruiz de Escovedo
    Senor, My bill does not spend any tax money to compensate the landowners. It stipulates that those who now occupy the land compensate those whose land was taken. I have stated my objection to making the taxpayers pay for this compensation. I am however open to amendments to the bill from members of the Congresso.

    Pedro Rivera
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  14. #8054
    wel it may have been sept 18 this strange `wikipedia` document obtained from chilean traders suggests that it was ratified on this day. Prehaps we should request our money back if we are indeed mistaken.
    "Never has so much been surrendered by so many to so few"
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  15. #8055
    Caudillo thekinguter's Avatar
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    I vote NO on the land compenstation act IN ITS CURRENT FORM. I want money from the government treasury to compensate the government's mistake of seizeing land, not money from poor farmers.

    I vote YES on the mapuche integration act.

    I vote NO on Crazzio's act. It needs some tweaking.
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  16. #8056
    Second Lieutenant OldCleric's Avatar
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    Honorable Presidente Rivera,

    I see the merit in your refutations of tax hikes and government payouts, which is why I addressed this open letter to the Congreso. As you can see, some of the representatives in the Congreso wish to manipulate your bill. I was merely employing a stopgap speech to attempt to rally our majority of Republicanos.

    I propose that, land seizures being the craft of liberales, we deal with the problem in this way. We should designate a small portion of our projected income- not our current monetary budget possessions- to go towards compensation. Once the income comes to fruition and we possess it outright, we should employ the designated sum thusly. It will not compensate everything, but it will work towards resolving the issue.
    "Après moi, le déluge"

  17. #8057
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    Great to see you mi amigo, Senor Fernandez! Of course I will be open to suggestions regarding the my bill. I hoped to inspire a thoughtful dialectic with it but so far all I got was scorn from the far right! I have heard things about a new "Christian Liberal Party" you are starting? Maybe your friends in the church could take a look at this bill and see what they like about it.

    Sr. Curiñancu, please understand that I am trying to work with your people, not against them. I greatly admire your people's many contributions to civilization and I hold in high esteem the many influential men your people descend from. Let us bury the hatchet, smoke the peace pipe, and call it a day shall we? Remember that your people have a friend in CSC.

    ---Caitan Crazzio---
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  18. #8058
    Resident Revolutionary blindgoose's Avatar
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    "The Mapuche people deserve all the rights of citizenry! The struggle of the workers and peasants is not divided by nation, we must all struggle together to build socialism. I offer to sponsor the Mapuche Integration Act on behalf of Curiñancu in my role as Senador of Santiago."

    - Senador Ferran Martí

  19. #8059
    Second Lieutenant OldCleric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeroyJenkins View Post
    If the congresso would allow a madman to speak-
    No.
    "Après moi, le déluge"

  20. #8060
    General Riccardo93's Avatar
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    You are mistaken Senor; the Act was not created by liberales, as I am one, and was firmly opposed to it. The socialistas and comunistas formed and supported this legislation, not the liberales who have become the victims of insult due to corrupt leadership and a perversion of its ideals. The only honourable liberal to hold office in this Republic was my father, and the only President apart from Gogolow not to be tried for treason.

    While the comunistas and the far left have, by and large, remained supportive of the Republic, it is their radicalism that you complain about, not the spirit of liberalism that my father and other noble leaders of this Republic (such as the late Sebastian Roseno) fought for.
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