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In a more realistic game, their armies should shatter without us even attacking them in force.
Definitely not. IRL the Chinese had a massive army (3-5,5 million strong) even when the Japanese controlled the most industrialised areas in China. Not to mention the fact that China never had a massive industry in 1930s - it was an agrarian country.

Here is a fun fact (http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi2wiki/index.php/CBI_Theatre_Statistics):
The area that was to become unoccupied China (three-fourths of the nation's territory), had: (3.160)
6% of the nation's factories
7% of the industrial workers
4% of the total capital invested in industry
4% of the electrical capacity

By 1944, the entire government controlled area produced anually only 40 134 metric tons of iron, 13 361 metric tons of steel, 40 655 barrels of cement, 4 677 lathes and 14 487 horsepower of motors (2.167)

:)

I actually think that the Sino-Japanese War is still too easy for us, but I do not want to piss the players off too much ;)
 
What you do miss is:
- We pushed them back a lot further.
- Their forces keep getting magic supplies (I wish we had that too!)
- Their forces are a lot more sizable than originally (compared to a regular China vs Japan game)

All in all, their forces should disperse without a source of military supplies for their armed forces and without the leadership sources to recruit officers. We are currently more busy fighting the terrain and the insane numbers of enemy formations rather than what historically happened.
 
IRL the Japanese didn't manage to subdue the Chinese even though the Chinese divisions were usually under-supplied and often disloyal. Terrain, infrastructure, the sheer size of the country, the Chinese numbers and their willingness to fight were the main problems.

Regular JAP vs CHI games don't concern me, as they are too easy. This is NOT a regular game. IRL they had a massive army and they should have it in this game, too.

I don't give them magical supplies, BTW. They get various bonuses, but the only instances when they got some additional supplies and resources happened after their lost their capital, because it's plain stupid and overpowered that the country loses ALL stockpiles after losing its capital.
 
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Regular JAP vs CHI games don't concern me, as they are too easy. This is NOT a regular game.

I know, I just wonder how much of a chance we are supposed to have if the AI gets all kinds of bonuses and we are forced to fight with both our hands behind our backs (AI controlled armies). The way we have to participate in this game already makes it more difficult by itself.

IRL the Japanese didn't manage to subdue the Chinese even though the Chinese divisions were usually under-supplied and often disloyal. Terrain, infrastructure, the sheer size of the country, the Chinese numbers and their willingness to fight were the main problems.

IRL, the situation was much different. Japanese equipment was more modern in out game to start with, we didn't pull out forces for invasions elsewhere etc pp.
 
This is super-hard difficulty. I wanted this game to represent the RL challenges the Japanese faced, taking engine's constraints into account. They had a very slim chance of victory IRL. In this game, it's not THAT bad, but victory will be sweet if we manage to achieve it! And if we lose, then we will go down in an EPIC fight :D

The irony is that the RL Japanese thought that war in China would end in a year, too ;). They even boasted that China would end in three months. The Germans underestimated the Soviets in a similar manner. In both cases, it didn't end that well.

IRL, the situation was much different. Japanese equipment was more modern in out game to start with, we didn't pull out forces for invasions elsewhere etc pp.
Our forces are more modern than the Chinese troops - I think that it's obvious. IRL the Japanese were forced to divert divisions from China in order to participate in the invasion of the Malaya, the DEI, the Philippines etc. They were always overstretched and the situation got worse as the war progressed.

The major change from the RL situation is that the US ended isolationism in our case and attacked us before we attacked them. However, this has happened only recently - before that, it was mostly JAP vs CHI plus some skirmishes with the Soviets.

Anyway, the Chinese are certainly beatable. I did it twice in my test games, using AI control.
 
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We definitely read different history books, not that I would say mine are correct and yours false.

Mine read the Japanese expected the Chinese to negotiate after defeating their armies in the east, but that didn't happen. The battles too longer than the 3 weeks the Japanese expected!!! but after the battle of Shanghai the best Chinese divisions were destroyed along with most of Chiangs ability to command his generals.
The Japanese then took what they wanted, all the coast and the central plains, leaving all the mountains to the Chinese.
In '44 they they defeated the Chinese again to take the airbases the US used to bomb Japan with.

So defeating the Chinese was not that big a problem except for a few battles.
 
Obviously I referred to the ultimate outcome of the Sino-Japanese War. The Japanese failed with their main goals, i.e. they didn't manage to convince the Chinese that they were beaten, they didn't manage to secure the country and establish a number of pro-Japanese puppets in China and they were still stuck there even in 1945. This was not what they expected. This frustration was one of the prime causes of many war crimes - the occupation policy became very harsh from 1940 onwards.

You are right that the Japanese occupied the most economically developed areas and performed offensives even in 1944. I don't know how to explain this, but IRL they were playing a different "game". It's as if they were playing EUIII instead of HOI3. What do you do in EUIII in order to win a war? You defeat the enemy in several important battles (Shanghai, Nanjing, Wuhan etc.), capture the enemy's capital (done TWICE - Nanjing, Wuhan), establish a naval blockade (done) and capture the most important provinces (done). The Japanese even created a pro-Japanese puppet government in China (Wang Jingwei's). They eventually cut off the Burma Road. So, what's the problem? The Chinese didn't surrender even after the Japanese did everything that. Despite the fanatical nature of their society and their total commitment to total war in the late-war period, they failed to realise that the Chinese would be fighting a total war, too.

The problem is that total conquest of China was close to impossible. When the government failed, the warlords took over. When the equipment and training failed, the terrain and infrastructure aided the defenders. The Chinese attacked in places where the Japanese were weak and when open conflict was too much in Japan's favour, the Chinese used guerilla warfare tactics. It was a logistical nightmare - the Japanese never even managed to establish full control over the Chinese countryside, they concentrated on strategic railways and cities, the countryside was often ruled by the partisans.

All this didn't prevent both sides from fielding massive armies, though.

-------------

Anyway, this is not History Forum... ;)

I have just finished playing for today. The result of the Battle of Saipan is... different than we expected. In some ways it is very favourable for us.

Update coming tomorrow.

I have 120 images for the next update, lol. Now how to lessen that number...
 
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I have 120 images for the next update, lol. Now how to lessen that number...

Make 2 (at least one hour apart or I have to report you!!!).

Make some collages of all the sinking ships / battles :)
 
If this game was like history we should have partisans popping up every week blowing up railroads, IC mysteriously being damaged etc. etc. The HoI3 game engine doesn't model some of the asymetrical warfare that went on on this front. Futhermore the Japs had great difficulties in China because the population was historically very 'anti-Japanese' so large numbers of troops had to occupy the urban areas, and there never were enough troops to go round anyhow.

We on the otherhand don't have half the partisan issues, plus we've built a lot more infantry to stock our armies. If we hadn't have expanded them, then I'd guess we'd be much closer to the historical case bogged down around the ports.

Futhermore we got Guangxi Clique on our side, so I helpped deny us some of the Chinese army attacking us. All of those things have been in our favour. Hence why we have done as well as we have done. But that is because we expected a full war, the Japanese historically weren't. It escalated out of control for them.

This is why in HoI3 Japan always does better than it did historically.


It you want to play 'historically' then you should hardly expand your 1936 forces and not even really consider mobilisation until a few months of the Chinese war have played out...

------------------------------------------

For all intensive purposes the war in China is finished, because we've got the heartland, and taken a massive chinese pocket. Overall the Chinese will take a long time to get back to a level of parity. It will be a grind to walk to Golmud, but I did tell you that the Chinese wouldn't just keel over and die with their VPs gone!

The most important thing at the moment is to push the Americans back, then sercue our stance, even if this means leaving the Colonials and Soviets not because I fear the Americans actually invading the home islands, but because if we loose our navy all those islands become a massive liability since they need to be supplied by convoys that can't be protected, and then there are the game rules that consider those islands just as important as the rest of Japan.

If we look at the faction VPs I believe with China taken, and the Pacific subdued we have a Minor Victory which could be a major victory with a nicely timed late game attack on the Commonwealth.

The Soviets don't really have the VP worth unless we were to hit them in Central Russia...that opertunity is lost to us. Hence Burma/Auz/NZ/Indonesia is the only really 'VP treassure trove' we could hope for for a Major Victory. However those wars if fought would be on a huge scale for which we don't have the resources for, even with China taken out. So we shouldn't pursue that End Game stratergy.

Like I've made in Character, Japans exit stratergy should be to cut their losses after these two wars.


I mean, can you imagine what the Cold War would have been like with a 3rd major techno-industrial power in Japan? You can be certain that Hirohito after seeing the first nuclear tests would be 'bullied' by the Millitary to produce the bomb for Japan...much like the Soviets rushed to build the bomb after seeing the American ones.

It would have been a major powershift. The Chinese civil war won't drag on, Korea won't be fought and Japan would have slowly industrialised those parts throughout the late 40's and 50's. The Asian Tiger economies would have hit world trade some 20 years eariler in the late 60's and 70's. Without America monopolosing corperation in Asia. You wouldn't have seen the economic 'victory' of democracy over Communism and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Assuming that non of the three powers sparked off a Nuclear World War III (which is actually a less likely war considering Game Theory) then we would have never transitioned into the Unipolar world that has been the case for the last 20 years. Given Chinas population and industrial explosion, and an Imperialistic will from a Japanese overlord system, it is quite possible that in the long run it would be the Japanese Empire that would become the planets dominating Geopolitical force.


The 3 party war can be likened to the concept of a truel, except where your not allowed to 'miss' and every shot kills. Hence the first person to fire has 3/4 chance that he will get hit in return, if we assume one 'nuclear missile volley' only. And if we consider the many case, will almost certianty get hit in return. Because of that, it is always least favourable to 'go first', and always most favourable to go last. Thus nobody ever pushes the button.

In the 2 party case, pre-empting the other person is the better option, so that either your 'not dead' (one volley case) or your 'less dead' (multi-volley) thus 'goign first' is the more favourable opition. Thus you should always take it.

It is only luck really that niether the US or USSR in real life decided not to play the odds, and kept common sense about themselves.

Apart from terrorism, the more nuclear parties there are in the world, generally the safer we would all be because the 'first to fire' is almost certainty a dead nation. However arguably the chances for 'cross fire' (taking advantage of a weaker player) are greater with more armed parties. However given that in real life 'players' talk to one another, rather than just play the mathamatical odds. This is greatly migigated.
 
Arguably the nukes are the best weapons in the arsenal of any pacifist, since they actually make large-scale wars between major countries less likely.

If this game was like history we should have partisans popping up every week blowing up railroads, IC mysteriously being damaged etc. etc. The HoI3 game engine doesn't model some of the asymetrical warfare that went on on this front. Futhermore the Japs had great difficulties in China because the population was historically very 'anti-Japanese' so large numbers of troops had to occupy the urban areas, and there never were enough troops to go round anyhow.

We on the otherhand don't have half the partisan issues, plus we've built a lot more infantry to stock our armies. If we hadn't have expanded them, then I'd guess we'd be much closer to the historical case bogged down around the ports.

Futhermore we got Guangxi Clique on our side, so I helpped deny us some of the Chinese army attacking us. All of those things have been in our favour. Hence why we have done as well as we have done. But that is because we expected a full war, the Japanese historically weren't. It escalated out of control for them.

This is why in HoI3 Japan always does better than it did historically.


It you want to play 'historically' then you should hardly expand your 1936 forces and not even really consider mobilisation until a few months of the Chinese war have played out...
It's one of the reasons why even our AAR is not as difficult as RL Sino-Japanese War. However, we are not blindly repeating history here, even though in many cases we are facing historical or semi-historical constraints.

I actually considered changing Marco Polo Bridge Incident into an event with no choice but to start war, as historically the Kwantung Army acted pretty much independently, but I thought that it would limit our choices too much and you would all hate me. It would also make less sense considering that the IJA is one of the playable factions, but I think that it's an interesting thought for regular games on custom difficulty.

Anyway, Gensui mentioned one thing which is very important:
It will be a grind to walk to Golmud, but I did tell you that the Chinese wouldn't just keel over and die with their VPs gone!
EXACTLY. Even if the nationalists collapse, it will take us much time to mop up all enemy resistance and even when all warlords are conquered, we will have to deal with partisans. However, before the nationalists are beaten, the theatre is important, because the Chinese can still potentially push us back. After they are beaten, it will become a minor theatre which won't require additional investment besides infrastructure development.

If we get our butts kicked in other theatres, we can always withdraw to defensible positions and hold the Chinese back until 1946 while holding most, but not all of their VPs. Their offensive potential is not as great as their defensive potential and we could still score a minor victory by capturing enough VPs in various places. However, this is sth which we can do as a last resort and certainly not in 1941, lol.

I'm thinking about various potential rules which would prevent gamey late-war behaviour (like hit&run strategies for VPs, irrational attacks in order to buy time etc.). One of them would include an additional "VP modifier" in 1944-1945, which would penalise the players for doing various nonsensical things by lowering the value of controlled VPs. On the other hand, since I am the autocrat here, I could simply ignore such orders... I prefer when the players have gameplay motivations for (not) doing X or Y, though.
 
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The Japanese underestimated the Chinese will to fight. Considering that the Chinese had happily fought each other not only for the last years but basically throughout their whole recorded history, the Japanese estimate is quite hard to understand. Assuming that the Chinese would falter after a few weeks of fighting when they had plenty of experience on how to cope with losses plus a population more or less used to live under civil war conditions for most of their live means that the Japanese did get racial prejudices get into their planning, the same error the Germans made in East Europe and partly the same error the US made in Korea and Vietnam.

For the game, I too consider the Chinese campaign almost over. Defeating them en detail will take a while, but we've taken all their important ground and can contain them where they are with what we have. Things will look better once the infrastructure projects are done, enabling our forces to benefit from a better supply network.
 
Our supply situation is mostly stable. Periodical supply shortages are nothing serious, I can already see many benefits of our infra development program. We will see whether the supply network will be able to handle 2 more homegun, though. However, since our infra is now better and the Guangxi supply lines are not long, it should be possible.
 
Bolstering that front certainly will help, though one corps should suffice for the moment, should it not? Even if the Guanxi are pushed back, that'll just mean that the Chinese will have to spread their forces more, which will benefit us in the central and northern sectors. Plus, I couldn't really care less whether Gunaxi is in trouble or not :p
 
Most of the Chinese VPs are in the southern and western regions now. Well, there are some in the north, but the frontline is so narrow there and so covered in mountains that it's just painful to advance.

And don't let me start on the communists. Let's just say that I authorised an attack on the communists, as Surt requested. However, after two battles with 1:10 casualty ratios in the communist favour the Emperor changed the orders Himself.
 
May be we should postpone further attacks until we manage to muster more air support in China. That air support would include everything capable of flight, even the nav bombers. Whatever we can throw in to hurt the Chinese will help the guys on the ground. That way our pilots would even gain a little more experience in what they are doing.
 
The Communists will be hard because they've been given the time to build large amounts of millita so even if you did knock a division out the fight, it's just going to be replaced.

The best way to take out the communists would be to mass airpower one fort at a time and drive a wedge in to try and isolate some of the fort regions. But to be frank, the AI communists can't do much.

In my PRC game, I've thrown the Japs right back while still at war with the ROC and Ma's, the downer is that no matter how many millita I make, and as much of China I take, the Japs have the tech edge on me and its increasing. So around Beiping I've stalled, China is in flux and I'm dead pissed off at the Soviets for going the full hog in Manchuria, which the Japs appear to be winning since I've forced their armies all back there. Trouble is the Soviets are cocks cos they won't give me production licenses. But what can you say...communists...
 
Exciting stuff. Looks like the poor military AI helped you out immensely when it decided to retreat to Saipan rather than an empty sea zone. The USN took very heavy losses, and if you can manage to keep rotating fleets to blockade it you could potentially wipe out the entire fleet.

I've been wondering, has the naval stacking penalties really affected your performance on the sea? There are lots of ships being thrown around in these battles, and I'm curious to know what your take on the stacking penalties is.
 
Another excellent update, seems like the war in the pacific is slowly heating up.

Seems like you are coming out ahead when it comes to naval losses, even though the USA might be able to take the losses a bit better then the Imperial Navy. What's that now? 4 BB 1 CV and how many Destroyers, Light Cruisers and TP's? So alot of ships and IC Days lost for the USA.

China still looks like a stalemate, some minor gains but you still haven't broken their backs.