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Blastaz

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Nov 19, 2003
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What buildings do you guys like?

The village line most benefits you to own in your own demesne. OTOH I want a lvl3 castle or at least a lvl1 castle in every province in my clan as they increase the size of your levies. Beyond lvl 3 castles they don't seem to add that mutch.

It helps to focus your building on two provinces and then swap out your existing undeveloped provinces for new ones that you capture. Although i build a lvl 1 castle in all my starting provinces before I give them to a vassal.

In the long run I want lvl 3 castle and as developed villages as possible in my provinces.

For Guilds you want 1 of the boost buildings for every 4 units you have of that type to get the maximum bonus. Having a theatre in every province allows you to own 6 provinces. This is almost certainly the best choice. You lose 2 guilds overall (you have to build 6 theaters but you gain 4 guilds from the new province). However you get an extra 4 retinue units from the upgraded village of the 6th province. As such one of those extra guilds has to be a barracks to ballance this out. The other one may need to be a theatre if you want to recruit ninjas, in that case going 6 provinces is always better. So you are comparing the extra income of a 6th province, plus the ablity to focus more heavily on one troop type (6 pairs of cavalry buildings vs maximum of 5 pairs for example) vs 1 extra guild.

What tips/strategies do you guys have?

Final Builds:

Combined Arms (retinue of 56) (3k/3k)
6 Theaters
4 Barracks
2 Gunsmith
3 Swordsmiths
3 Horsebreeders
3 Spearmakers
3 Bowyers

No guns max retinue size (retinue of 64) (0/6k)
6 Theatres
6 Barracks
6 Swordsmiths
6 Horsebreeders

Guns + Infantry (retinue of 56) (6k/0)
6 Theatres
4 Barracks
2 Gunsmiths
6 Spearmakers
6 Bowyers

Small elite retinue (5 provinces) (retinue of 36) (4k/5k)
5 Swordsmiths
5 Horsebreeders
4 Spearmakers
4 Bowyers
2 Free (Gunsmith if you build over retinue, Barracks for room, theatre for ninjas, pottery for honour)

Small elite retinue with guns! (retinue of 44) (4k/4k)
6 Theaters
1 Barracks
1 Gunsmith
4 Swordsmiths
4 Horsebreeders
4 Spearmakers
4 Bowyers
 
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I take both the Castle and Village lines in leaps. First is getting each up to Tier 3, which is the first sweet spot that gives you more troops one way or another. After that, raise them both to five. That will give you higher troop replenishment for castles, and gives you even more retinue cap in the case of villages.. aside from the other usual benefits.

After Tier 5 it's all cheese, and I try to concentrate on getting all my demesne to fives before concentrating on maxing out a couple central stronghold provinces.

For some reason, the AI looks like it builds individual provinces faster than I do. That's because it's clan leader may only keep a personal demesne of 1 to 3 provinces, and hands out more to vassals, so the extra vassal courts allow more building to happen at once.
 
I take both the Castle and Village lines in leaps. First is getting each up to Tier 3, which is the first sweet spot that gives you more troops one way or another. After that, raise them both to five. That will give you higher troop replenishment for castles, and gives you even more retinue cap in the case of villages.. aside from the other usual benefits.

After Tier 5 it's all cheese, and I try to concentrate on getting all my demesne to fives before concentrating on maxing out a couple central stronghold provinces.

This, with 1 small difference.

Prioritize getting to 3 castle before 3 village; in the early game, you will get a lot more mileage out of an additional levy than you will out of the ability to pay money you likely don't have for a tiny regiment that won't have any boost from guilds yet.

Apart from that, the fact that you have only 2 building advisors for 5-6 demense provinces (not counting guild slots since they open so quickly), and the fact that you can only have 1 active construction per province at any given time basically forces you to round everything else out.

Oh, I guess there is one other tiny tweak. Prioritize Village 4-5 over Castle 4-5 because village is still giving the +2 tax income increases at those levels, while the bonuses from castles have stopped scaling.
 
I take both the Castle and Village lines in leaps. First is getting each up to Tier 3, which is the first sweet spot that gives you more troops one way or another. After that, raise them both to five. That will give you higher troop replenishment for castles, and gives you even more retinue cap in the case of villages.. aside from the other usual benefits.

After Tier 5 it's all cheese, and I try to concentrate on getting all my demesne to fives before concentrating on maxing out a couple central stronghold provinces.

For some reason, the AI looks like it builds individual provinces faster than I do. That's because it's clan leader may only keep a personal demesne of 1 to 3 provinces, and hands out more to vassals, so the extra vassal courts allow more building to happen at once.

I'm finding in my games that going straight for a personal demesne of 5 early is a mistake. I'm think rotating 3 is probably optimal - 1 for the cash and two to be built up. Kind-of like a 3 field system. Another strategy is a creeping demesne where you conquer already developed areas and pass on poorer stuff to your heirs/vassals.

I also find in balanced situations where my neighbour is about the same strength that having maxxed castles in strategic locations is important as it massively slows down the enemy - it's saved my neck several times now.

Have fun
Finn
 
Having only 3 personal demesnes isn't a bad idea in the sense that you can have vassals upgrade the others for you. If you want, you can spend Honor (and money?) taking them back in the future.

I don't mind having more than 3, however. It just helps with the income at the tradeoff of provinces being developed slower than most. It can be a pain to kick a vassal out later, too; energy spent best elsewhere probably.
 
The first village gives +3 tax, more than any thereafter. Likewise, the first castle doubles levy size. I build those in every province. Then, it depends. If there's one province that will probably see combat more than others, I build it all the way to level 7 before moving to others.

With the villages, I move all of them to level 3, then 5, then 7, etc.
.
 
I found the best way to build is letting the enemies do it :D So yes, creeping advance of the Villages, giving poor places to the vassals. Though getting lvl 1 and lvl 3 castles early do help quite a bit, a well as lvl 1 villages. I seldom have enough time to develop lvl 3 villages in any quantity before I conquer them so I prioritize lvl 1 building everywhere.
 
As this thread is now in the guide, how about some final builds?

Here's the one I'm going for in my current Nanbu game achieved circa 1550. (Obviously the game can be won long before this is you play aggresively enough but its an ideal build)

6 Provinces
Shinto shrine in each province.
Theatre in each province.
Set of Spear/Bow or Sword/Horse in each
Pluss 3 Gunsmiths + 3 Barracks.

Gives you total retinue of 52.
Gives you 24 upgraded inf/cav + up to 28 Muskets.
2k cav + 4k inf + 7k musket doom stack.
 
Interesting.

Which do you people prefer on the smiths? I'd think that loading up on the samurai bonus ones and going with a samurai heavy retinue is the ideal way to go. What reason do we have to take the ashigaru bonuses, besides saving a little on upkeep costs? Having a better ranged stage capability is nice but all bonus buildings being equal, can't you get more potential killing power out of the samurai shock combat values? Or do the guns and bow upgrades combine for some crazy ranged combat value? I've not built up any arquebusiers yet so I don't know just how powerful their potential is.
 
Personally, I focus on fire upgrades for infantry (preparing for the eventual arrival of arquebuses), and shock upgrades for samurai. This allows for enhancing the main strengths of the prospective units and leaves room for a larger levy (5-6 barracks). I also generally prefer Buddhist temples to Shinto shrines. Manpower regeneration is essential when involved in constant warfare. The .10 bonus 5 Shinto shrines provide can be easily equalled by a quick donation to the Emperor.
 
Personally, I focus on fire upgrades for infantry (preparing for the eventual arrival of arquebuses), and shock upgrades for samurai. This allows for enhancing the main strengths of the prospective units and leaves room for a larger levy (5-6 barracks). I also generally prefer Buddhist temples to Shinto shrines. Manpower regeneration is essential when involved in constant warfare. The .10 bonus 5 Shinto shrines provide can be easily equalled by a quick donation to the Emperor.

It just seems to make more sense for me to pair your guilds so you give the most boost to the troops that you field. If you don't go for 6 provinces you can get a baracks in every province anyway. But I don't think that you need that many, the reinforce speed boost 20% is tiny as you get about 400% increase from castles. And my max levy size is 52. I think you could max out at 56 (with 5 provinces 5 baracks) or 64 (6 provinces 6 baracks) but I would hate to have to afford that! The same thing goes for buddhism, my manpower regens pretty fast in the late game when there are lvl8 castles everywhere.

Also the advantage from shinto is not 0.1 from the shrines but 0.3 or 0.5 from being part of the faction/ its leader. Fewer clans seem to go Shinto, which makes it easier to be the leader. With a fairly strict program of temple eradication I have been leader for almost all of my Nanbu game (ever since I built my 2nd shrine).

Reason for having ashigaru retinue is a) cost and b) so you can do some assaulting of your own. 8k inf 5k muskets might be pretty good at winning sieges and field battles

Write up a final build and I'll put it in the first post though.
 
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It just seems to make more sense for me to pair your guilds so you give the most boost to the troops that you field.

The problem I have with this is, with a 52-regiment retinue, the bonus from the guilds is diluted to a point that makes the investment worthless. If you upgrade infantry & cavalry shock & fire in 5 provinces you get a bonus of just 10 points in each category. Now if you're fielding a balanced army, that leaves 10 points divided by 26 units. Now my two guild solution does no better bonus-wise (it is actually worse if you consider each unit is individually weaker than a full-guild complement bonus). However, if you want to add at least two gunsmiths (necessary to train an adequate force of arquebuses in a reasonable amount of time) and at least one theatre (I find ninjas almost impossible to find - and given I am being constantly attacked by ninjas - I need the protection of at least one - and if I can manage two at a time then the second will be for offensive purposes), now you are left with having to reduce at least one of your guild options (the remaining 2 guild slots would only provide a bonus of 4 - not worth the cost in my opinion).

I do like the idea you proposed for going with an all-ashigaru retinue. That would easily solve this problem. Perhaps the slight shock benefit of cavalry is not really worth it. What I used to do was build all cavalry (for speed in the initial phase - I hate chasing enemies from province to province - true I could split and co-ordinate my forces - but I find that leaves you susceptible to mega-stacks when fight large clans), then only build ashigaru after the invention of the arquebus. I think I will try your system. For a point of note, I don't build barracks for the reinforcement speed, I build them for the +4 retinue (+3 in comparison with other military guilds). I like to have the largest possible (reinforcement capable) standing army to deal with extended wars. Again, when facing large clan mega-stacks, I only like to disband one "bloodied" levy at a time, allow for the natural reinforcement process, then recall them. I stall the opponents with my professional army, forgoing sieges, until my units return. Now if I happen to wipe them and can take a poorly fortified kori while waiting, I will do so. I worry over extended sieges however, as it seems the ai levies reinforce faster than my own.

So here are my stats for my old system - and another example based on your ashigaru system:

6 Province Old System 6 Province New System
--------------------- -----------------------
4 Barracks 4 Barracks
2 Gunsmiths 2 Gunsmiths
6 Theatres 6 Theatres
6 Bowyers 6 Spearmakers
6 Horse-Breeders 6 Bowyers

5 Province Old System 5 Province New System
--------------------- ----------------------
5 Barracks 5 Barracks
1 Theatre 1 Theatre
2 Gunsmiths 2 Gunsmiths
2 Pottery 2 Pottery
5 Bowyers 5 Spearmakers
5 Horse-Breeders 5 Bowyers

Sorry for being long-winded, but I have to add an alternate "Old System" for those who don't think the pottery bonus is sufficient

5 Barracks
1 Theatre
1 Gunsmith
3 Swordsmiths
5 Horsebreeders
5 Bowyers

Of course this means longer recruitment times for arquebuses, but once they have been recruited the Gunsmith is useless. Now if you don't care for arquebuses at all, you can focus on an all-cavalry retinue as follows:

5 Barracks
1 Theatre
4 Potters
5 Swordsmiths
5 Horsebreeders

and for a 6 province system:

6 Barracks
6 Theatres
6 Swordsmiths
6 Horsebreeders

What I would like to know, do all cavalry retinues actually traverse the map faster than mixed retinues (I know they did away with this in EU3: HttT)
 
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I don't think cav are faster, may try to test today. Edit: Cav don't move faster.

You seem to prioritise horse breeders there. They add fire to cavalry. Would naturally tend to go for swordsmiths and shock myself.

Also you have the same size retinue in 6 provinces as you do in 5. As the extra province adds 4 units from the village. You get 2 more guilds if you go 5 provinces. 1 of them has to be a barracks to ballance the retinue size. If the other one is a theatre for ninjas you have nothing. It really does seem that the extra cash is worth anything you can do with that final guild.

Completely different but what about this 5 province version:

5 Swordsmiths
5 Horsebreeders
4 Spearmakers
4 Bowyers
2 Free

that gives you a fully upgraded 36 regiment retinue of 9k men. You could go gunsmith + barracks for another 1k arquebusiers, or theatre + pottery.

Or a 6 province version
6 Theaters
4 Swordsmiths
4 Bowyers
4 Spearmakers
4 Bowyers
1 Gunsmith
1 Barracks

Would give you a retinue of 44 regiments 4k cav + 4k inf + 3k Muskets.

I like this last idea a lot it would give you an awesomely elite 11k stack. However it would need support as it could get quickly outnumbered by massed levies, and wouldn't really be able to assault anything by itself. I suppose it depends how you use your retinue and your levies.

Have updated the OP with several builds.
 
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I like those last two ideas. And yes, I did mean Swordsmiths vice Horsebreeders (I forgot which one was shock - hard to associate horsebreeders with "fire" - in my mind faster horses mean more "shock" when you charge into your enemy - guess they couldn't have bowyer working for both samurai and ashigaru and had to get creative :) ). Given the fact that cavalry are no faster than ashigaru, and the shock difference is relatively minor, I think I am now leaning towards the 6-province "new system" I described (based on your suggestion of an all-ashigaru retinue).
 
I can't speak for late game with guilds and all, as I'm pretty new and haven't gotten to the guild spamming stage yet (almost built one once, but I ended up making 2 shrines instead of choosing :p). But I've done a lot of early games. My starting strategy is to reduce my size to 3 provs, giving anything else to vassals. I rotate building Castle 1 and Village 1 in each prov, to get the extra troops from castles and the big income boost. Whatever the 3rd prov to get castled is becomes my main military base and gets built straight up to Castle 5 for the recruitment bonus. Meanwhile I alternate village improvements in the other 2 provs, so that one is always earning full money with it's improvements. That delays the first retinue boost a tiny bit, but the 2nd comes in at the same time, and the 1 extra unit isn't a huge difference compared to levies early on. Castle 5 and the two Village 3 upgrades should finish around the same time, so you can start building up the markets of your castle province and get the castles in your cash provs up to at least 3 too.

I give any extra provinces to vassals, IN PAIRS so the vassal can be running two upgrades of his own and earn enough money to field a retinue. Eventually I'll end up conquering some land with highly upgraded villages, those will be added to my demense for the money & retinue, possibly even sending some of my initial demense to vassals.
 
Got to say I don't agree with the 3 province demesne idea. You get over 3 times as much money for holding a province yourself vs one held by your direct vassal. over 10 times as much for a province you own and don't develop vs one your vassal does and is. You get more cash from a lvl 0 village you own than a lvl 8 village your vassal owns.

The advantage of having a couple of provinces lying fallow is that in the early game this is where almost all of your income comes from. You will need this income to keep your levies in the field and your clan expanding.

Very simple maths:

My system
5 provinces demesne 6 Vassal provinces
2 under development = (2*10*0.3) = 6g
3 fallow = (3*10) = 30g
3 two province vassals (all being developed) = (6*0.3*0.3) = 0.54
Total income = 36.54

Your system
3 province demesne 8 Vassal provinces
2 under development = (2*10*0.3) = 6g
1 fallow = (1*10) = 10g
4 two province vassals (all being developed) = (8*0.3*0.3) = 0.72
Total income = 16.72

Those 2 provinces were worth 20g when held by you and 0.18 when held by your vassal. The slightly quicker pace of development is certainly not worth that much hard cash!
 
I disagree, the extra armies from the vassals' extra castle upgrades are much more important than a little early gold. I do sometimes find myself running a loss in an early war, but in practice it's a very small amount (largest was soemthing like 0.87g/month) and easy to survive for as long as the levies need to be raised. Keep in mind that I've been mostly playing in the north-east region, where small edges over your similarly sized neighbours are key (and the early gold would probably go towards a temple, but I'm likely to be attacking Mogawi and taking the one they start with). There's plenty of time to make gold later (especially when you're taking someone else's 6 village upgraded provs) - early game is the time to expand to make sure you get to that gold-earning point :)

But yes, you could hold 4 or 5; the point is to have at least 3 provs being rotated (so there's no downtime), and mixing keeping well developed conquests for yourself while giving vassals 2 provs each to build up themselves. Could be a matter of preference.
 
Has anyone done testing to see which combat stats are actually the most useful? I don't know the mechanics of combat. Does one phase (Shock or Fire) happen more than the others? Do they have dramatically different results (Morale vs Casualties)?

It seems to me that figuring out a build order for Guilds isn't much use unless you know 1) which stats are most useful in combat and 2) what exactly you plan on doing with your Retinue. Is your Retinue best used for assaulting Castles or fighting field armies? Should assaults be left to Levies?

I'm on my first game, playing as the Ii family (since I studied in Hikone, Japan, I have a soft spot for the rulers of Hikone-jo) and I haven't gotten past 1525. I haven't encountered firearms yet and don't know how much of an impact they will have.