Honor balance at Big Clans

Captain Gars

Lead AI Programmer

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Oct 4, 2010

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #41

Silverhood said:

think 1962 I had all but 7 provinces.

Click to expand...

That's not very impressing...

Silverhood said:

The counter to subjugation is making vassals more likely to revolt. If I'm a clan lord and some bully wants to curb-stomp because me he has 150,000 troops and I have 30,000, I'd gladly become his vassal until I get the opportunity to break free, ideally at a moment of over extended weakness. Maybe with a few other ambitious lords. But the AI rarely seems to plot to break free. Maybe they need something like a sub-plot - a conspiracy perhaps, that lets you find out who else is plotting against your lord / neighbors.

I've beaten the game twice now, first as Nagao (quite hard, civil wars saved me twice) and Kono (fairly easy) and I've seen maybe 2-3 AI plots kick in, only 1 involving 2 weaker clans taking on a stronger party. I have tried 1 plot against a stronger party myself, and it was just too much effort arranging marriages and sending bribes. Took me nearly 15 years. In that time, I could have beaten 2-3 smaller clans and had enough clout to stand up to the bigger clan myself.

My point is still this though, why should a 100 province Shogun contender clan go to war against a clan with 3 provinces. There's no system of alliances and guarantees like in the EU games, so the outcome is already known: splat! Unless they were willing to subjugate themselves, they died.

Click to expand...

There was a bug with getting external backers to join your plot to break free, so with the patch this will be easier. But even so, in our test games I've seen quite a lot of plotting by the AI, and clans falling apart.

 

theleif

First Lieutenant

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #42

I think a scaling option would be the most elegant solution. Less honour gained for every title after the first, less honour gained for every building after the first, less honour gained, the more honour you have, and higher cost for blinging the emperor, based on the size of your clan, could, in my humble opinion, solve the steamrolling. Then, add in relationship penalties (not too big, mind) to your vassals, the more vassals you have (Great leader, you never come visiting me any more!).
Also war exhaustion.

Cheers

 

B

bleary

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #43

Perhaps there could be some honor penalty for having dishonorable vassals or members of court. It seems reasonable that it would be dishonorable to employ or accept a villain. Maybe one's honor should creep downward toward the mean honor of your vassals? This would probably serve as a drag on larger clans.

 

birdboy2000

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Jan 27, 2007

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #44

Maybe make honor increases (gifts to the emperor, etc.) scale by income or clan size? That plus tying DoW honor cost to possible gains or something will get rid of the current snowball effect.

 

Checco

Officially Nipponophile at this point

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Feb 27, 2008

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #45

I explain why I voted the option #2, chosen by the minority:

I think that by a gameplay point of view, giving higher honor costs to big ones fighting little ones won't change the game significantly; there is always the time when you hit 100 Honor and you have no trouble going to 50, for instance.

Same thing for the size of the clan, you'd just save dowing small ones when you have max Honor.

Choosing an 'exclusion' criterium, the #4 is the same of #3 and #5, while #1 is, aside from very hard to judge, ignoring any strategic gain like securing fronts, settling on corners, etc. that could be much more valuable than temple # 15.

 

birdboy2000

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• Sep 17, 2011

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• #46

Another idea I had (and tried to mod but either it's hardcoded or I couldn't find it.) What if max honor was set to 50 or so and not one hundred, so it couldn't get so high that you were never too far off from low honor?

 

s1234567890m

Mwahahahahaha

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Dec 26, 2010

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• Sep 18, 2011

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• #47

So the problem with honor is like the problem with infamy in Vic2?
Bigger you get the easier it is too conquer?

 

FinnN

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Mar 13, 2003

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• Sep 18, 2011

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• #48

I'd quite like to see plotting/threats split into 2 - internal threats and external threats.

Internal threats would be if the ruler has been revoking titles, breaking betrothals with family members, ordering people to kill themselves (maybe massively increased if it's the character's father) and so on. People threatened in this way would have the honour costs to join plots against their lieges slashed - this would be a cumulative thing over time lasting until the character dies with no erosion of the threat level.

External threats would be if a neighbour is substantially bigger than them (at the time that the request is made) then their honour cost for joining plots against the big neighbours would be slashed.

 

Blastaz

Field Marshal

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Nov 19, 2003

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• Sep 18, 2011

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• #49

Please don't actually implement the most popular option.

Declaring wars on OPMs is arlready expensive. Ie it costs 17 honour to invade a opm and 14 to invade a 2PM etc. By contrast you ultimatly gain honour for invading a clan with 7 provinces. I think this is protection enough for the small clans. After all this game is basically about feeding on the weak, it's not the HRE and you don't need to try and protect them.

Likewise making it cost a lot of honour to attack a big clan will just make it much harder to plot against them as not everyone will have enough honour to invest.

The answer is to nerf honour gain rather than increasing honour costs, the court titles are too powerful, and 3 points per province is probably too much, maybe 1 point per province and 5 for a Daimyo title. However rather than nerf shintoism I think you should boost the other religions. I also don't think this a problem with big clans, with proper use of titles and religion it is posible to sit on max honour even as a 10 province clan.

I can get 0.3 honour a month for life for 110 gold for the rank 8 title. If I go shinto as well for another 100 gold, thats 0.5 honour a month while at war. That is a new war every 20 months even if I'm not taking and handing out any provinces directly. If I am I may be gaining a whole another honour a month.

 

feelotraveller

uncivilised peasant

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Apr 11, 2011

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #50

A little off the direct topic of the poll but... Removing the free war declaration which (can) happen when a clan breaks free could improve the blobbing problem. Making it more likely a clan will try to break free and costing something (at least immediately) for a potential reunifier instead of it being (again potentially, but ho hum) an honour bonanza. Think particularly of the situation where a clan-to-be has 45+ honour and the original clan has less than 45... It could even be effective at higher honour levels if the big clan already has relationship difficulties.

Edit: Or, of course, the big clan may just have to let their former vassal go, given the timing.

 

Blastaz

Field Marshal

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Nov 19, 2003

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #51

I think another solution is to simply increase the number of ways honour can be spent. ATM it is spent to declare war or for internal politics keeping your vassals down, sepuku, revoke lands etc, only. If you have happy vassals you don't need to spend it there and if you are fighting a big enough clan you actually gain honour from them.

I think the solution therefore is to create good options of what you can spend it on. My suggestions would be laws and decisions. For decisions: You could have tea ceremonies etc. that raise your relations with a specific vasal/other clan leader/Daimyo. You could have plays, which when combined with a gold cost increase your relations with all your vassals. You could have a decision that raises tax levels on your demesne or even on your vassals, calling for harsher taxes costs you a bit of honour. You could equally spend honour to speed up build times.

For laws you could copy the VV system and give you pairs of choices which then effect the entire clan. You could choose how open you were to foreigners or how insular. What your policy on religion is (an option to auto destroy religious buildings in your entire clan would be SO SO useful). What sort of army you want to raise and what tactics it should use. Etc etc.

If you created more things to actually spend honour on then you would find that fewer clan leaders were sitting on 100 of it.

 

Checco

Officially Nipponophile at this point

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #52

Another way to adjust the Honor War Declaration cost could be comparing the Honor of the target's leader with the attacker's.

Scumbags should be viewed as 'Anyone can kill him', while honorable clans might raise eyebrows if attacked.

Both of the things above could affect the final cost.

 

Reilnur

Second Lieutenant

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Feb 15, 2010

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #53

I voted for events. We need more events, period. If there's a problem, the first question should be "Can we fix this by adding in more character events?"

 

Sandam

Major

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Oct 19, 2008

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #54

looking at the poll results its a bit scary how much the unrealistic-antiblobing options are liked... i hope #3 wont get implemented.. its simply an illogical idea...

 

Silberkralle84

Second Lieutenant

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Oct 19, 2008

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #55

Honor is something personal, so it shouldn't depend that much on the state but rather on the person.
I believe event chains depending on traits and on vassals reflect that better. Also more vassals mean more event chains, thus balancing bigger clans somewhat.

 

theleif

First Lieutenant

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Jan 26, 2007

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #56

Just had another idea. What if there was a penalty on honour gain for a few years, say 50% penalty, after you declare war on someone? So, even if you win quick, there will be a penalty left for a time.

 

Featauril

Un Canadien Errant

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #57

I'm someone who voted 3 who regrets it. As others have said, making small clans cost lots of honor will do nothing - big clans at 100 honor can absorb a -60 honor hit and shrug it off. It'll slow down smaller clan expansion more than now, which is the opposite of what we want to happen.

As others have said, what really needs to be toned down is honor *gain*. Perhaps an honor decay such as in EU3 tradition?

 

B

bleary

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• Sep 19, 2011

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• #58

Another possibility is that certain actions could result in not just a decrease to your current honor level, but in a decrease to your maximum honor level of 100. Perhaps with a new trait? Actions like a discovered ninja assassination plot against a minor or attacking a relatively small clan that's already at war, or other things that seem particularly dishonorable might never be forgotten, and an individual might never climb the heights of honor with a permanent stain on their character. This wouldn't affect a small clan so much, since such a leader might never get up to around 85-100 honor, but it could effectively curb the actions of a larger clan somewhat.

 

Von Vampyre

Second Lieutenant

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Sep 7, 2009

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• Sep 24, 2011

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• #59

Im not sure which to pick. I think id like to see a large honor cost in large clans for keeping your Daimyos happy (gifting them a sword/armor from a famous maker or asking them to name a rock in your garden type of thing). AND an even larger honor cost if you dont have a minimum of Daimyos (Kokujin jealous you are the only Daimyo you grasping sod! ).

 

.Spartan

Patron Saint, Lost Epic Causes

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• Sep 24, 2011

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• #60

Mnoracle said:

If war costs honor, then worthy adversary should cost less honor to declare war against then weak ones. That will be quite true to bushido.

Click to expand...

I concur and selected accordingly given the narrow variable options. After all this is a historical based simulation. If possible I would some variables taken into account such as relations and historical actions -etc...