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Thread: Magna Mundi Developer's Diary #22: Tribes - Governments, Provinces, and More

  1. #121
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    I think Ubik has always been kind of dick when it comes to the North American tribes. I say that as an enrolled Colville tribal member, and an on-again off-again Magna Mundi follower and player. At this point, I just figure Ubik's european and has never had to deal with either side of that particular flavor of guilt that comes from fading memories of genocide and war in your nations' histories.

    It's a bit like making off-color remarks about someone you don't think is in the room

    But as far as gameplay, history, and mechanics go, he's completely right about the north american tribes being nearly non-actors in the game. There's evidence of Salish, Pueblo, and Mississippian civilizations, but by the time the game rolls around, they were all pretty much in the dark ages or had no centralization of power or authority to speak of.

    So, I think moving the tribes to decisions and events makes sense. Regardless of the designer's persona, MM has always been accurate and fair in my opinion. Looking forward to more DDs.

  2. #122
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    Yes, so much of a dick that he and his team have taken the time to create an event pool that will attempt to portray Native/European relationships far more accurately then any EU title to date. He did not insult anybody by accurately describing the state of NA tribes during the time frame of the game.

  3. #123
    This is the last warning concerning talking about Ubik's Post and off-topic matters.

  4. #124
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    Ubik, a book by Phillip K. Dick



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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Ubik, a book by Phillip K. Dick



    Sorry, Zolotaya and all other moderators, couldn't resist!
    I almost buy the Ubik book the other day. I saw it and left me thinking about it
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by LoK-y-Yo View Post
    I almost buy the Ubik book the other day. I saw it and left me thinking about it
    Great book, but I love PKD.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by ubik View Post
    Ubik, a book by Phillip K. Dick



    Sorry, Zolotaya and all other moderators, couldn't resist!
    Haha, can the mods mod a mod?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivashanko View Post
    Haha, can the mods mod a mod?
    I suppose so but Ubik has always been beyond good and evil
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonkp View Post
    Yes, so much of a dick that he and his team have taken the time to create an event pool that will attempt to portray Native/European relationships far more accurately then any EU title to date. He did not insult anybody by accurately describing the state of NA tribes during the time frame of the game.
    See, that's the disconnect I've never quite understood over the years. It's possible to be both brilliant at game modification and maybe a little rough around the edges. I mean, Ubik has that use of english to avoid direct insults, but at the same time carries the right tone to be a put down.

    It's a little frustrating at times, but maybe it's charming to the more ardent MM followers.

  10. #130
    I suppose the tribal governments are hereditary, but it would be really fun if they were elective. When I read DD#27 about elective monarchy I thought the elective part could work really well for the tribal governments. It would be good game mechanic to portrait how a strong Khan could unite in PU's several tribal countries under him into a mighty horde that than falls apart with his death. I think it also makes sense and feels realistic for the nobility of a tribal country to be able to join up with a mighty neighbour Khan if their own dead Khan's heir is a weakling. Also, it would model the more fleeting existance of tribal countries. It would also provide a choice about developing into early monarchy, because this would mean that a more stable country had established and the possibility for a strong Khan to quickly unite the entire steppes through sheer awesomeness would be gone.

  11. #131
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    What kind of government will the Mamluks have?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    What kind of government will the Mamluks have?
    Monarchical Oligarchy, Sorry, forgot to paint that one!
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  13. #133
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    So the Mamluks will be an oligarchy but the white sheep and black sheep turkmen will have early monarchies? It makes sense for the former but not the latter in my opinion.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    So the Mamluks will be an oligarchy but the white sheep and black sheep turkmen will have early monarchies? It makes sense for the former but not the latter in my opinion.
    ....Apparently I completely forgot about the Middle East outside the Arabian Peninsula and Persia when I painted that map. They are Monarchical Oligarchy as well.

    *Edit*
    Actually, I think I reverted the government form for these states shortly after this dev diary was released. I remember reverting the Mamlukes back to Monarchical Oligarchy from Elective Monarchy (since the Sultan was "elected") after hearing what Elective Monarchy is like from other team members, after which I decided to drop the idea. The Sheep states were reverted to Monarchical Oligarchy when I realized the Ruler Authority mechanic (Tribal Authority was renamed to better fit this sort of states, actually) is probably necessary for the Timurid successor states and the Turkmen states.
    Last edited by Ese Khan; 05-01-2012 at 23:11.
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  15. #135
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    How exactly will Ismail and the Safavids pop up in MMtG? It was a bit clunky in the mod.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Chaos View Post
    How exactly will Ismail and the Safavids pop up in MMtG? It was a bit clunky in the mod.
    Ah yes, I need to review that event chain! Rest assured, though, because you may see some funny rebel activities in the Timurid successor states and the Turkmen Sheep states during an unstable succession that could, among other things, lead to the Safavid independence.
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  17. #137
    Sorry I'm waaayy late into this discussion, but I just started reading these forums and I wanted to reply to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zolotaya View Post
    Actually, once again, by the time of contact, the Mayan peoples had fallen quite a bit, to the point where, as Ese points out above, their cities had disintegrated and were unused, with successor states that had forgotten much of what was known two or three centuries before. If the game began in the 12th or even early 13th century, the Mayan would be an Oligarchic Empire with as you say, their many advances. These advanced things had all been abandoned well before the Spanish arrived, with the majority of the Mayan living a ghost of the existence that their ancestors were.

    Esit: I originally fought hard to keep the Mayan tag in the game, but the research, both Ese and I did showed it was more accurate and true to history to go with the successor tags.
    I'm currently reading The Maya, Eighth Edition by Michael D. Coe and it says that after the fall of Mayapan, The Maya in the northern Yucatan reverted back to their old city-state style of political structure and the kingdom fragmented into 16 rival states. The Maya were definitely in a dark age in this period, and their buildings were of pretty shoddy construction compared to what they had built earlier, but they still lived in cities, used writing, etc. There were hundreds of Maya books burned by the Spaniards, and three out of the four we have left were written in the period just before the conquest.

    Also I disagree with the Maya being given fragmented tribes and I think oligarchical monarchy would be more appropriate. But I'm running out of time so I'll write more about that tonight when I get home from work.

    Also I want to say during the brief period I played EU3, for some reason the only factions that interested me were the tribal ones, which were pretty boring to play as. I'm glad to see that MM will flesh them out more and make them more interesting to play.
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 01-02-2012 at 07:20.

  18. #138
    Ok here is why I think the Maya states should be given oligarchical monarchy instead of fragmented tribes. This is an excerpt from the chapter "Maya Life On The Eve of Conquest" from The Maya, Eighth Edition:

    The ancient Maya realm was no theocracy or primitive democracy, but a class society with strong political power in the hands of an hereditary elite. To understand the basis of the state in sixteenth-century Yucatan, we have to go right to the heart of the matter, to the people themselves.
    In Yucatan, every adult Maya had two names. The first came to him or her from the mother, but could only be transmitted from women to their offspring, that is, in the female line. The second derived from the father, and similarly was exclusively passed on in the male line. There is now abundant evidence that these two kinds of name represented two different kinds of cross-cutting and coexistent descent groups: the matrilineage and the patrilineage. There were approximately 250 patrilineages in Yucatan at the time of Conquest, and we know from Landa how important they were. For instance, they were strictly exogamous (one had to marryout of the lineage), all inheritance of property was patrilineal, and they were self-protection societies, all members of which had the obligation to help each other. Titles deriving from early Colonial times show that they had their own lands as well, which is probably what Landa meant when he said that all fields were held "in common." As for the matrilineage, it probably acted principally within the marriage regulation system, in which matrimony with the father's sister's or mother's brother's daughter was encouraged, but certain other kinds forbidden.
    Now, while among many more primitive people such kin groups are theoretically equal, among the Maya this was not so, and both kinds of lineage were strictly ranked; to be able to trace one's genealogy in both lines to an ancient ancestry was an important matter, for there were strongly marked classes. At the top were the nobles (almehen, meaning "he whose descent is known on both sides"), who had private roles of high-ranking warriors, wealthy farmers and merchants, and clergy. The commoners were the free workers of the population, probably, like their Aztec cousins, holding in usufruct from their patrilineage a stretch of forest in which to make their milpas; but in all likelihood even these persons were graded into rich and poor. There is some indication of serfs, who worked the private lands of the nobles. And at the bottom were the slaves who were mostly plebeians taken in war, prisoners of higher rank being subject to the knife. Slavery was hereditary, but these menials could be redeemed by payments made by fellow members of one's patrilinieage.
    By the time the Spaniards arrived, political power over much of the inhabited Maya area was in the hands of ruling castes of Mexican or Mexican-influenced origin. Yucatecan politics was controlled by such a group, which of course claimed to have come from Tula and Zuywa, a legendary home in the west. In fact, any candidate for high office had to pass an occult catechism known as the "Language of Zuywa." At the head of each statelet in Yucatan was the halach winik ("real man"), the territorial ruler who had inherited his post in the male line, although in an earlier epoch and among the highland Maya there were real kings (ajawob) who held sway over wider areas. The halach winik resided in a capital town and was supported by the products of his own lands, such as cacao groves worked by slaves, and by tribute.
    The minor provincial towns were headed by the batabob, appointed by the halach winik from a noble patrilineage related to his own. These ruled through local town councils made up of rich, old men, led by an important commoner chosen anew each year among the four quarters which made up the settlement. Besides his administrative duties, the batab was a war leader, but his command was shared by a nakom, a highly tabooed individual who held office for three years.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    I'm currently reading The Maya, Eighth Edition by Michael D. Coe and it says that after the fall of Mayapan, The Maya in the northern Yucatan reverted back to their old city-state style of political structure and the kingdom fragmented into 16 rival states. The Maya were definitely in a dark age in this period, and their buildings were of pretty shoddy construction compared to what they had built earlier, but they still lived in cities, used writing, etc. There were hundreds of Maya books burned by the Spaniards, and three out of the four we have left were written in the period just before the conquest.
    I don't see any country in the northern Yucatan so while your information is interesting, it's tied to an entity that's apparently not even represented in the game. However, if there were 16 rivalling tribes, that should warrant a fragmented tribes.

  20. #140
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    There are 2 mayan cultured nations: Itza and Ko'woj

    Apparently those were the ones that still thrived after the collapse of the Maya civilization.

    Btw, welcome to the forum Tuuvi
    We're still flying

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