Werewolf CXII: Refugees

[EUROO7]

SUB please.

Not in?

[randakar]

Cultist knows wolf, wolf knows cultist. Where is the paranoia? I have yet to see a cultist abondon his pack before it gets wiped out. There is such a thing as baddie honour, isn't there?

And yet cultists are kept out of the loop of what happens in the pack more often than not.
Besides, unless I'm mistaken it's only "cultist knows wolf" in these rules. If the wolf in question goes AWOL or the cultist does what OY did and intentionally never contacts anyone there is no "wolf knows cultist".

After discussion in the General Werewolf thread about how "in contact" made sense because how would packs otherwise know when they could rise up and overwhelm the village I used that in the last game I hosted. Midgame one of the packs found out about a cultist (or if it was the cultist that found out about the pack?), they didn't have a scan result or even a PM contact but they told me they were "in contact" and could the cultist count for parity? So what was I supposed to do? Say nothing? Confirm that he was a cultist? Tell the cultist about the wolves? all of them? one? the pack name only? And what if they had guessed wrong? Should I tell them the "cultist" wasn't a cultist? Maybe it was a clever villager that tried to infiltrate?

These rules specifically deal with how to handle that situation.

To go to the other extreme and make cultist and sorcerers pack specific risk having players alive with no chance of winning and that too can get "interesting" but seldom makes for good game play.

Yes, that is bad.
That is why these rules simply have the cultist go it alone as the last remnant of his pack in this situation.
Yes, in this particular case in your rules the cultist can join other packs instead. The problem with that is the "honor amongst baddies" thing. Either you allow a cultist the option to sell out his pack, or you don't. In these rules you are allowing a mass sellout, in the new rules it isn't allowed.
The ironic thing is that that isn't because I fear such a thing happening - it was done to prevent the wolf pack from mistrusting it's own cultist and thus not telling that cultist anything, especially not names of others in the pack.

The most fun I ever had in a werewolf game was as a SA cultist in Warthogs, having one of my wolf masters infiltrating the seer's circle posing as a priest based on a seer scan I detected and then trying to eat the JL before we were discovered. IIRC there were 3 packs so we didn't hunt as often as we would have liked.

The same thing can happen if you have the new cultist rules.

In another game as a cultist I got into the JL because an inverted scanner didn't understand the false scan result rules and I ended up selling out my pack, the other pack and the JL. That was maybe more "interesting" or intense and nerve recking than fun.

Still I see nothing here that depends on the GM using these cultist rules instead of the new ones.

I really think you can have fun with almost every role if you just put enough effort into the game and have a bit of luck.

This is true but no excuse for a GM to not try and improve the rules.

[Eternaly_Lost]

And yet cultists are kept out of the loop of what happens in the pack more often than not.
Besides, unless I'm mistaken it's only "cultist knows wolf" in these rules. If the wolf in question goes AWOL or the cultist does what OY did and intentionally never contacts anyone there is no "wolf knows cultist".



These rules specifically deal with how to handle that situation.



Yes, that is bad.
That is why these rules simply have the cultist go it alone as the last remnant of his pack in this situation.
Yes, in this particular case in your rules the cultist can join other packs instead. The problem with that is the "honor amongst baddies" thing. Either you allow a cultist the option to sell out his pack, or you don't. In these rules you are allowing a mass sellout, in the new rules it isn't allowed.
The ironic thing is that that isn't because I fear such a thing happening - it was done to prevent the wolf pack from mistrusting it's own cultist and thus not telling that cultist anything, especially not names of others in the pack.



The same thing can happen if you have the new cultist rules.




Still I see nothing here that depends on the GM using these cultist rules instead of the new ones.




This is true but no excuse for a GM to not try and improve the rules.

You know, an idea I might want to see is that cultists are pack specific, and when the last wolf in a pack dies, rather then the cultists having no chance to win, they get a much weaker hunt, say only every other night that their pack would have been able to hunt.

[EUROO7]

You know, an idea I might want to see is that cultists are pack specific, and when the last wolf in a pack dies, rather then the cultists having no chance to win, they get a much weaker hunt, say only every other night that their pack would have been able to hunt.

I think it was WD who had a system where if all wolves were eliminated, the pack cultists were automatically transformed into wolves.

[johho888]

I think it was WD who had a system where if all wolves were eliminated, the pack cultists were automatically transformed into wolves.

No, it was Ironhead. I was a cultist in that game but when our pack got wiped out he changed the rules in midgame and I found myself as a cultist to the other pack... Me and my surviving cultist collegue was pretty surprised and not too pleased with that one. Could be worth trying again because with those rules the (early) priest scans gets very important in the end game while usually the priest gets less and less important.

@randakar: it's not "cultist knows wolf" but "cultist knows a wolf and a wolf knows cultist" in these rules.

Yes, the same thing can happen with your cultist rules, I just mentioned two fun games I had as a cultist since you(?) said - and a lot of people think - that cultist is a boring role where nobody tells you anything. If you as a cultist have something to tell your masters then the out-of-the-loop thing usually goes away but it is of course also a question of personalities.

Anyway, I think we will just have to agree that we disagree on this one.

[EUROO7]

No, it was Ironhead. I was a cultist in that game but when our pack got wiped out he changed the rules in midgame and I found myself as a cultist to the other pack... Me and my surviving cultist collegue was pretty surprised and not too pleased with that one. Could be worth trying again because with those rules the (early) priest scans gets very important in the end game while usually the priest gets less and less important.

I'm pretty sure WD did something similar. At least I think he did. WD likes to make very tightly knit packs. He usually includes cultists and sorcerers in each pack, and is very adamant about pack loyalty. If I remember correctly, cultists can only win with their pack in his games, so when the wolves all died, the cultists or sorcerers in that pack would turn to wolves.

[Capt. Kiwi]

I'm pretty sure WD did something similar. At least I think he did. WD likes to make very tightly knit packs. He usually includes cultists and sorcerers in each pack, and is very adamant about pack loyalty. If I remember correctly, cultists can only win with their pack in his games, so when the wolves all died, the cultists or sorcerers in that pack would turn to wolves.

Something like that would have made the last game much more interesting. As backup priest I was willing to throw myself under the bus to connect up the JLs, because with the sorceror backup and two cultists down the priest didn't really need a backup. As it turned out there were another two cultists who lasted to the end, but didn't really matter much because all the wolves were taken down. If they could have carried out hunts, having already attached to a pack, then they could have made the game more interesting - I might not have been so willing to sacrifice myself as backup priest.

[johho888]

I'm pretty sure WD did something similar. At least I think he did. WD likes to make very tightly knit packs. He usually includes cultists and sorcerers in each pack, and is very adamant about pack loyalty. If I remember correctly, cultists can only win with their pack in his games, so when the wolves all died, the cultists or sorcerers in that pack would turn to wolves.

Could well be, WD and I5 have rather similar ideas about how WW games should be set up. I just remember the I5 game because I was a cultist with that kind of rules there.

[randakar]

Anyway, I think we will just have to agree that we disagree on this one.

Pity. I thought the evidence of the last dozen or so games with cultists would have been enough.

That having been said, you're right. It's still your game, and you get to decide what the rules are.

Something like that would have made the last game much more interesting. As backup priest I was willing to throw myself under the bus to connect up the JLs, because with the sorceror backup and two cultists down the priest didn't really need a backup. As it turned out there were another two cultists who lasted to the end, but didn't really matter much because all the wolves were taken down. If they could have carried out hunts, having already attached to a pack, then they could have made the game more interesting - I might not have been so willing to sacrifice myself as backup priest.

Thank you.

Could well be, WD and I5 have rather similar ideas about how WW games should be set up. I just remember the I5 game because I was a cultist with that kind of rules there.

Yes. And he has made very good arguments supporting why he does things that way.
So it's hardly that I am alone in this. AOK had a revised set of cultist rules for much the same reasons. (Though he went about it differently, I grant you that.)

Anyway, I will stop arguing the point now. We disagree, and that's fine. At least you were willing to consider it before sticking to the old ways

[Adamus]

two more and it will be the biggest big ive ever been in..

que the "well in my day we had a 60+ games all the time".

Edit: wheres Jacob, WD.. erm picking at straws Cobolt blue... Blue Emu... Euro's Soul? get them involved. Sedracus, wheres he?

[randakar]

I actually had a very polite PM conversation with Olaus Petrus about his current forum activities, but he didn't really seem to have time to play anymore.
Pity.

[Lord_D]

In my opinion the current cultist situation (able to win even if they aren't in contact) promotes passivity. I don't like that.

It would seem johho pictures me as a Laird, care to explain?

[TheExecuter]

In, if I can get in (not as a sub)...

I will be out of town from Sept 2nd to Sept 11th...however, since I never survive that long...I don't think it should be a problem.

Cultist knows wolf, wolf knows cultist. Where is the paranoia? I have yet to see a cultist abondon his pack before it gets wiped out. There is such a thing as baddie honour, isn't there?

Try the big before last...I, as a cultist, abandoned my pack (they never contacted me) and tried to sell them out. Of course, in that game, the wolves were never told who their cultists were.

I really think you can have fun with almost every role if you just put enough effort into the game and have a bit of luck.

True. I had a great time leading everyone around by the nose until I was eaten by my own pack for being too much of a threat.

[johho888]

It would seem johho pictures me as a Laird, care to explain?

Just gave everyone a RPing character. Post #1 talked about a laird's hall and your name was similar enough. You are of course free to chose whatever RPing character you want but if you don't then that will be your default character that I will use in case you are mentioned in any update.

The rest of you might also want to check what I gave you in case you'd rather be something else.

[johho888]

two more and it will be the biggest big ive ever been in..

que the "well in my day we had a 60+ games all the time".

Edit: wheres Jacob, WD.. erm picking at straws Cobolt blue... Blue Emu... Euro's Soul? get them involved. Sedracus, wheres he?

I've PMed a bunch of people including jacob (read the PM but didn't signup) and WD (real life busy). Not Sedracus or Blue Emu though. Has Blue Emu ever played in a WW game?

I played in that only 60+ game and that was more confusing and longwinded than fun. In any game bigger than 40 players it is just too hard to remember who everyone is and what they said.

[EUROO7]

I've PMed a bunch of people including jacob (read the PM but didn't signup) and WD (real life busy). Not Sedracus or Blue Emu though. Has Blue Emu ever played in a WW game?

I played in that only 60+ game and that was more confusing and longwinded than fun. In any game bigger than 40 players it is just too hard to remember who everyone is and what they said.

40 really is the pefect number.

[Slinky]

I was always partial to 42 myself

[Lord_D]

Just gave everyone a RPing character. Post #1 talked about a laird's hall and your name was similar enough. You are of course free to chose whatever RPing character you want but if you don't then that will be your default character that I will use in case you are mentioned in any update.

The rest of you might also want to check what I gave you in case you'd rather be something else.

Well in that case I do fear I might insist on using the correct capitalization in referring to the Laird, that is, to I. I have come here - arrived around noon on the previous day, as it were - to collect my inheritance from my great uncle Charles. He was the last Laird of... uhm.. whatever whatever it is this place is called.

Anyway, he passed away under mysterious circumstances somewhere last century. It would seem this place is so isolated my family received the news only recently.

.. ohh, I've forgotten to introduce myself, the name's Lawrence, Laird of... well I suppose we'll find out sooner or later.

[Lord_D]

Finally, after all these years, I now know the ultimate question

[EUROO7]

Finally, after all these years, I now know the ultimate question

Slinky is a genius.