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Thread: Sengoku - Development Diary #12 - Plots

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    Usermod Coordinator Paradox Dev Team Captain Gars's Avatar
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    Sengoku - Development Diary #12 - Plots

    Hello and welcome to this week's Sengoku developer diary. Today we will introduce you to plots. Plots are a way to covertly coordinate diplomatic actions between both players and the AI.

    Playing as a vassal you have two potential plots at your disposal. The first is to break free and form your own clan. This one mirrors a diplomatic option to do the same, but with the added bonus that all internal backers of the plot will follow you into your new clan as your vassals, and any external backers will go to war with your old clan, should the clan leader dispute your independence.

    The other plot is to usurp the clan leader title. This one is only available if you belong to the ruling dynasty of the clan. Should you succeed with this plot you will send a message to your clan leader with two options. Either to willfully step down and hand over the title to you, or fight you in a civil war.

    Once you have started to plot, a decision will become available that list the requirements for actually resolving the plot. The plots may have additional requirements, but all of them demand a certain level of plot power. This is basically a ratio of armed forces between you and your backers and the target. Once you have invited enough backers to reach the required plot power strength, you can resolve the plot by taking the decision. The timing of when you take this final step is of course important and up to you as the leader of the plot...

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    As a clan leader you can plot to attack another neighboring clan. This is a very nice option to have, especially if you plan on attacking a bigger clan than yourself. By finding others who might be interested in the same goal you can together make sure that you have the necessary power to back up the attack. These might even involve vassals of your target as long as they're not of the same dynasty. To be able to resolve the plot you need to first declare war on your target, but once this is done you don't have to call in your fellow plotters. You can decide to not do it at all, or to wait until the time suits you.

    Once you do this however, all backers are called in at the same time, and any backers within the clan of your target switches side to you. The plot is however only an agreement between you and your backers of who to attack, and that the attack is coordinated, not that you are in an alliance or that you in any way have agreed to how the spoils of war will be divided among you. So be aware of who you invite, because as in many other cases in this game, the riches falls to whoever takes it...
    "I don't want to know or hear anything about neutrality. This is a fight between God and the devil. If he wants to side with God, then he has to join me. If he prefers to side with the devil, then indeed he must fight me. There is no third way."

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  2. #2
    First! Could not withstand .

    But I have a question as well: Will there be only two levels of rulers: clan leaders and vassals?

    I ask because Crusader Kings had three levels (kings, dukes and counts). I do not have a problem with it. I just ask.
    "Sometimes the typos are better than the original post."
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    Usermod Coordinator Paradox Dev Team Captain Gars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratege View Post
    First! Could not withstand .

    But I have a question as well: Will there be only two levels of rulers: clan leaders and vassals?

    I ask because Crusader Kings had three levels (kings, dukes and counts). I do not have a problem with it. I just ask.
    Vassals can include both daimyo and kokujin, but only those who are direct vassals under the clan leader can enact these plots.
    "I don't want to know or hear anything about neutrality. This is a fight between God and the devil. If he wants to side with God, then he has to join me. If he prefers to side with the devil, then indeed he must fight me. There is no third way."

    Senior Scripter & Usermod Coordinator

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    ~ Ivan Turina ~

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Sounds very interesting. This is the first real PI's effort to implement sth that resembles player-AI diplomatic and military coordination. I really like the concept.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gars View Post
    Vassals can include both daimyo and kokujin, but only those who are direct vassals under the clan leader can enact these plots.
    How does a kokujin become a daimyo? I mean, is daymio a creatable title, as in CK? Does the AI grant daymio titles to the player?

    Are plots moddable?

  6. #6
    Major Järnblomma's Avatar
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    This seems really wonderful, actually. I am impressed.

    How does the AI decide who to invite to their plots? Is there any way to turn the plot back on the attackar by, say, acting a mole or telling the person of the plot? Is there any way you as the victim of a plot can get to know it before it has happened?
    ...A flower of iron, a flower of death, beautiful, unbendable and deadly.

    So first you announce Crusader Kings 2, then a game with Crusader Kings elements set in feudal Japan. Why not just go the whole hog and give away a rock of Paradox brand crack with every pre order?
    -Philios82

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gars View Post
    Vassals can include both daimyo and kokujin, but only those who are direct vassals under the clan leader can enact these plots.
    Ah I remember.

    So it is not possible that kokujin plot against their daimyo?
    "Sometimes the typos are better than the original post."
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  8. #8
    Usermod Coordinator Paradox Dev Team Captain Gars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilsonrtf View Post
    How does a kokujin become a daimyo? I mean, is daymio a creatable title, as in CK? Does the AI grant daymio titles to the player?
    You can request that a daimyo title from your liege if he has one to grant. Or you might get one from conquering all the provinces in a kuni (a historical Japanese province consisting a several kori - the games actual provinces) during a war. The AI should grant players titles just as he grants it to other AI characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilsonrtf View Post
    Are plots moddable?
    To a degree, so you can add additional plots or tweak the ones we have written, but you won't be able to do to complicated stuff as the AI most be able to eveluate the plots. If they can't they won't join them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Järnblomma View Post
    This seems really wonderful, actually. I am impressed.

    How does the AI decide who to invite to their plots? Is there any way to turn the plot back on the attackar by, say, acting a mole or telling the person of the plot? Is there any way you as the victim of a plot can get to know it before it has happened?
    The AI evaluates this just as any other diplomatic action it can take. Your Master of the Guard has an intrigue value and might discover the plot. There are also a number of events that can happen to those involved in the plot which might splil the beans. So the longer you plot and the more backers you have, the bigger the risk of it being exposed.
    "I don't want to know or hear anything about neutrality. This is a fight between God and the devil. If he wants to side with God, then he has to join me. If he prefers to side with the devil, then indeed he must fight me. There is no third way."

    Senior Scripter & Usermod Coordinator

    (DON'T PM ME ABOUT MODDING ISSUES - THERE ARE SUBFORUMS FOR THAT)


    ~ Ivan Turina ~

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Frederic III's Avatar
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    Secret diplomacy... at last! Now, implement this in Vicky 2 and EU3.

    edit : but if this is secret diplomacy, why losing honor by doing so?
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  10. #10
    Major Järnblomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gars View Post
    The AI evaluates this just as any other diplomatic action it can take. Your Master of the Guard has an intrigue value and might discover the plot. There are also a number of events that can happen to those involved in the plot which might splil the beans. So the longer you plot and the more backers you have, the bigger the risk of it being exposed.
    This is so awesome. Really, incredible. I thought this would be only Crusader Kings IN JAPAN but it is shaping up to really show what the Sengoku Jidai was all about. I am impressed and happy. Thank you!
    ...A flower of iron, a flower of death, beautiful, unbendable and deadly.

    So first you announce Crusader Kings 2, then a game with Crusader Kings elements set in feudal Japan. Why not just go the whole hog and give away a rock of Paradox brand crack with every pre order?
    -Philios82

  11. #11
    Thanks for the answers, Gars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic III View Post
    Secret diplomacy... at last! Now, implement this in Vicky 2 and EU3.

    edit : but if this is secret diplomacy, why losing honor by doing so?
    This would be amazing, really amazing, for Vicky 2.

  12. #12
    Lets say me and some other dudes is plotting to attack one of our neighbors, can the neighbors find out?

  13. #13
    Here above:
    Your Master of the Guard has an intrigue value and might discover the plot.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Te. Kenzo's Avatar
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    I'm VERY enthusiast of the concept of Plot arriving in Paradox games. I'm very curious about event and other things that happen in the situation of a plot against us is discovered.

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    Mastermind Paradox Dev Team Birken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Te. Kenzo View Post
    I'm VERY enthusiast of the concept of Plot arriving in Paradox games. I'm very curious about event and other things that happen in the situation of a plot against us is discovered.
    If you've discovered that someone is plotting against you, you can choose to expose the plot, which will cost the plotters some honor and make the plot invalid after a while (the plotters can still try to do what they've plotted to do, but chances are that backers might start abandoning your plot when it's exposed to save their own skin).
    Or you take some precautionary actions such as sending ninjas to assassinate the plotters, try to force them to commit seppuku, strip them of their provinces etc. while they're still unaware of you knowing about the plot and then expose it to hurt them further.

  16. #16
    @Birken: Sounds more and more interesting. The first game that really seems to depict these issues in detail, maybe.
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    Mastermind Paradox Dev Team Birken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic III View Post
    Secret diplomacy... at last! Now, implement this in Vicky 2 and EU3.

    edit : but if this is secret diplomacy, why losing honor by doing so?
    Well, eventually the plot is set in motion and then it's less of a secret.

  18. #18
    Field Marshal Te. Kenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birken View Post
    If you've discovered that someone is plotting against you, you can choose to expose the plot, which will cost the plotters some honor and make the plot invalid after a while (the plotters can still try to do what they've plotted to do, but chances are that backers might start abandoning your plot when it's exposed to save their own skin).
    Or you take some precautionary actions such as sending ninjas to assassinate the plotters, try to force them to commit seppuku, strip them of their provinces etc. while they're still unaware of you knowing about the plot and then expose it to hurt them further.
    That's Great

    Quote Originally Posted by Frederic III View Post

    edit : but if this is secret diplomacy, why losing honor by doing so?
    Well, often the discover of secret diplomacy plan cause a lose of credibility from public opinion, and the gaining of Infamy, using paradox terms.

    A Plot is a backstab against your own clan, and an attack against other enemies that ignore the honor rules.
    Is Obvious that a winning plot is "more accepted" than a losing plot.

    But in other terms, when you try a thing like this, you play with the Honor of your Name, you bet on it, for that i think the action cost honor (and also for gameplay reason i imagine)
    Last edited by Te. Kenzo; 19-08-2011 at 18:36.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Te. Kenzo View Post
    Well, often the discover of secret diplomacy plan cause a lose of credibility from public opinion, and the gaining of Infamy, using paradox terms.

    A Plot is a backstab against your own clan, and an attack against other enemies that ignore the honor rules.
    Is Obvious that a winning plot is "more accepted" that a losing plot.
    But what if a plot ends undiscovered?! If this is possible. Then the overall loss of honor just for entering the plot would be unrealistic. If knowbody knew apart from the plotters.
    And a loss of honor for entering a still secret plot is a little bit problematic for another reason: If an AI player loses a certain amount of honor for no obvious reason a human player could guess that he has joined a plot.

    I would suggest that the loss takes place when the plot finally fires. One way or the other.
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  20. #20
    Field Marshal Te. Kenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratege View Post
    But what if a plot ends undiscovered?! If this is possible. Then the overall loss of honor just for entering the plot would be unrealistic. If knowbody knew apart from the plotters.
    And a loss of honor for entering a still secret plot is a little bit problematic for another reason: If an AI player loses a certain amount of honor for no obvious reason a human player could guess that he has joined a plot.

    I would suggest that the loss takes place when the plot finally fires. One way or the other.
    I have added with a EDIT this line:
    But in other terms, when you try a thing like this, you play with the Honor of your Name, you bet on it, for that i think the action cost honor (and also for gameplay reason i imagine)

    Remember also that Honor, is a value with a gameplay focus, and in Sengoku seems to be an important value that is spended for numerous action, an action like starting a plot need a cost i think
    And another thing, i don't think there is the problem of the discovery of a possible plot only viewing the honor quantity of other character, simply becouse you dont watch forever the honor of all of them, and becouse for many reason, action and event, probably the character gain and loose your honor many and many times during a game.

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