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Thread: Omnium Contra Omnes a Multiplayer Modification

  1. #381
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Diplomats

    These agents are plentiful for all but few countries who aren't Christian. Players generally aren't limited by how many guarantees, warnings, military access, royal marriages or insults they can spam every year you are more likely to run out of derogatory adjectives to insult your neighbours. In multiplayer campaigns diplomats are conveniently saved: only the initiator of a deal consumes the agent. These are the most common sources of bearded men:


    +3 aristocracy
    +2 Catholic
    +1 Protestant, Reformed
    +1 war
    +1.8 average monarch rating (6)
    +1 maximum prestige
    +1 Curia, Emperor, some HRE reforms
    +1 embassy

    The mod doesn't revolutionise things:


    +1 aristocracy
    +1 war
    +2 average monarch rating (6)
    +2 maximum prestige
    +1 Curia, Emperor, some HRE reforms
    +1 embassy

    -0.3 per trade agreement
    -0.1 per marriage
    -0.1 per sphere
    -0.05 per infamy point

    Please note that countries can't gain fewer than one diplomat, under any circumstance. The overall gain of diplomats is lower in "Omnium Contra Omnes" compared to the unmodded game. The relative scarcity pushes players to value the existing sources of diplomats: an embassy might be needed to facilitate diplomatic actions, for instance, even when infamy is low.

    As you can remark, religion doesn't have an impact on diplomatic initiative anymore. Rulers diplomatic ratings, as well as prestige, are now the most determinant factors. Aristocracy and the Embassy may be required when other sources do not suffice. Prestige can actually determine a loss of diplomats, when negative: it though slowly gets back up to zero. There is a decision, tied to "Cabinet", meant to provide occasional diplomats at the expense of magistrates.

    It's not uncommon to feature few remaining trading countries when the game is past the middle point. Trade agreements are particularly useful then, as -2% trade efficiency is insignificant next to the competitiveness increase. In the mod each trade agreement determines a 1% overall compete chance loss (-3% trade efficiency), along with 0.3 diplomats consumed every year to keep the deal alive.

    Since marriages, spheres, infamy and trade agreements decrease diplomats, players may want to be more selective choosing their partners. The number of alliances doesn't affect available diplomats the military aspect is too critical in multiplayer, where the existence of certain players depend on a large network of allies. A triggered modifier, by the name of "Intricate Alliances", influences the number of allies.

    AI countries are more or less unaffected by these changes to diplomats: the AI doesn't spam royal marriages, trade agreements or spheres, nor does it accumulate worrying amounts of infamy.

  2. #382
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Royal Marriages

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzul View Post
    Is there an added benifit to royal marriages then or just a minor amount of legitimacy every year for less diplomats?
    These are royal marriages benefits in the mod, besides legitimacy:

    • five royal marriages allows your heir to be introduced, and improve his claim
    • you can only "claim thrones" by first establishing a royal marriage
    • to diplomatically vassalise a country it's necessary to set up a marriage
    • entering a royal marriage increases relations (20) and prestige (1)!
    • it becomes possible to create heirs in countries which lack ones, provided you have a royal marriage with them
    • marriages hinder war declarations
    • you're more likely to be accepted in the HRE when you have a marriage with the Emperor
    • you're more likely to incorporate mongol hordes into the Ulu when you have marriages with them
    • the HRE vote is influenced by royal marriages
    • it becomes possible though very rare to inherit countries, provided one has a royal marriage


    Frankly, most of these are accessory advantages: the options to diplo-vassalise, claim a throne and prevent war declarations are the most enticing. In vanilla it's possible to recoup stability in a few months: losing one stability point because you broke a royal marriage is not a deterrent. Since it's costlier to increase stability in the mod, a royal marriage can actually be a decent dissuasive argument. Vassalisations and claiming thrones are common ways to expand, they require royal marriages. Marriages influence events, it would be too complex to list all those which are affected ( "Scandal at Court", "Nobles Ally with Foreign Powers", etc.).

    In vanilla there aren't limits to how many royal marriages a Christian country can pursue. The only tangible drawback to entering such arrangements is a higher risk of falling prey to personal unions, a rare occurrence. Since royal marriages increase legitimacy (an appropriate effect), there is but one limit to one's legitimacy in vanilla: the number of countries within the same religious group. You can easily observe that the five yearly diplomats that you can generally count on are enough to cover even the longest lasting regency councils, by entering a dozen of royal marriages or so.

    I saw two ways to confine the number of contemporary royal marriages:
    1. penalise an excess of royal marriages through new events, or triggered modifiers
    2. introduce a more transparent modifier in the background

    For multiplayer purposes it's better to avoid events as much as possible, so that the game isn't interrupted, not even visually, by pop ups. Losing 0.1 diplomats for each royal marriage means that each additional marriage affects your future diplomat gain rate. Entering too many marriages will incapacitate your ability to enter new ones, or perform other diplomatic actions, before monarchs die — you might then want wed an ugly Hapsburg over a pretty von Welf.

    Last edited by silktrader; 30-06-2012 at 22:48.

  3. #383
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    I've have a chat with a couple of old timers who agree that the changing overseas state may be more trouble than it's worth. We can make so that once colleges, conscription centres or arsenals are built they will remain intact for years, even if the province become overseas. Although they will be eventually wiped out, unless the land connection is restored within a decade or so (to avoid changing capitals in different continents to collect these buildings).

    Does anybody care, and prefer this mechanism.

  4. #384
    The timer idea seems nice to me.

  5. #385
    Lt. General Lama43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    I've have a chat with a couple of old timers who agree that the changing overseas state may be more trouble than it's worth. We can make so that once colleges, conscription centres or arsenals are built they will remain intact for years, even if the province become overseas. Although they will be eventually wiped out, unless the land connection is restored within a decade or so (to avoid changing capitals in different continents to collect these buildings).

    Does anybody care, and prefer this mechanism.
    I do. I noticed that conquered land connected provinces automatically become overseas because apparently get blocked automatically. I'm not sure if this is really true (might be due to another cause) but i would certainly prefer having at least a year to take care if random rebels appear.

  6. #386
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    I've have a chat with a couple of old timers who agree that the changing overseas state may be more trouble than it's worth. We can make so that once colleges, conscription centres or arsenals are built they will remain intact for years, even if the province become overseas. Although they will be eventually wiped out, unless the land connection is restored within a decade or so (to avoid changing capitals in different continents to collect these buildings).

    Does anybody care, and prefer this mechanism.
    Sounds a lot better, but maybe reduce that to 5 years?
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  7. #387
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    General Considerations on Hordes

    While specific changes were necessary to attain a balanced setup, the intention remained that of preserving Divine Wind's original take on steppe hordes and their functioning. The latest expansion stresses the military options of these governments, and so does "Omnium Contra Omnes".

    Barring the possibility of conquering neighbours before they can develop a technological advantage, hordes will generally attempt to reach three goals to improve their long term prospects:
    • sedentarise and rid themselves of the "Steppe Horde" government
    • westernise to reach an equal technological standing with neighbours
    • unite the Mongolian Ulus, or form the Mughal Empire, perhaps form Persia
    These can only be achieved through military action. To sedentarise one needs cultural tradition, which is gained through martial feats, by promoting epics, plundering shrines, celebrating festivals, looting, etc. To westernise, legitimacy and an excellent monarch will be key, so it's necessary to win wars, sack cities and insure a safe and competent succession through well timed khuruldai. Lastly, to unite the Altaic tribes, or create the Mughal nation, conquest or diplomatic scheming are required.

    The emphasis on the martial aspect explains the distinctive innate flaw of steppe hordes — they constantly leak legitimacy. The most effective way to regain it is to win battles, wars and sack cities.

    In vanilla, playing a horde often implies dealing with myriads of rebels, rather than fighting foreign enemies, thus players. In "Omnium Contra Omnes", revolt risk is typically lower but succession crises are more violent. Horde are expected to put down fewer rebel stacks but at critical times, so to avoid repetition throughout the campaign.

    Missions were revamped and some introduced to increase variety. They steer the player and the AI towards different goals, depending on enemies. Fighting the same neighbours tends to be a bit boring otherwise. Several decisions were added, although the hordes selection remains exiguous compared to sedentary countries.

    To smooth the transition into the 16th century and beyond, steppe hordes were provided with more frequent troop updates and alternatives. Given their reliance on armies and their inability to progress technologically they would otherwise stand no chances against human players.

    Despite these additions, there remains one aspect which is lacking: steppe hordes feature very few diplomatic opportunities. That facet of the game can be generally neglected by horde players. I am hoping though that espionage's overhaul will breath more life into options that prescind from the military one.
    Last edited by silktrader; 03-07-2012 at 13:26.

  8. #388
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The "Steppe Horde" Government

    This are the peculiarities of to the "Steppe Horde" form of government:


    hordes will enter a perennial state of war with neighbours
    hordes can exact a tribute from defeated countries
    there can't be diplomatic deals between hordes and non hordes
    provinces are acquired by occupying them
    hordes gain combat advantages in steppes and plains
    hordes gain land tradition when they loot provinces
    hordes gain legitimacy when they sack provinces
    hordes provinces are colonised by their foes rather gained through preace settlements
    there is a "Succession Crises" whenever the ruler dies

    These characteristics are lost when the government changes. In the mod the last two items were changed. There also are modifiers which affect hordes, in vanilla they were:


    +10 badboy limit
    -1 badboy per year
    +100% force limits
    +100% manpower
    -25% regiments and maintenance costs
    +50% technology costs
    +5 global revolt risk

    The two modifiers affecting badboy are pointless: hordes conquer provinces without acquiring badboy. Wars against other hordes would provoke an infamy increase, the bonuses though would cover more than one can chew. Vassalising victims also increases badboy (4). Vanilla's decreases quickly lead to zero infamy, which stops being a relevant variable.

    The manpower modifier provides an excessive advantage throughout the grand campaign, compared to hordes neighbours. The Golden Horde would gain more manpower from owning Moscow than the Muscovite would. It's unlikely either force limits or manpower would prove to be limiting factors maintenance costs are. By curtailing the manpower and force limits bonus, national ideas like "National Conscripts" and "Grand Army" become possible candidates. The strong disparity between the Golden Horde or the Timurids and their neighbours, Muscowy and the Ottoman Empire for instance, is lessened the concomitance of a horde player and a human neighbour in multiplayer campaigns should be possible.

    The general +50% technological cost sits on top of nomads base research speed 10% that of Western countries! It's quite simple: there are no reasons to invest in technology once the slow limit is reached (6). Despite their proximity to China or the West, steppe hordes feature slower progress than the Zapotecs. The possibility to advance in technological terms is one that enriches strategical choices; nomad's government doesn't inflict +50% technological costs in the mod. There still is a considerable difference between the progress speed of nomads and the more advanced Eastern countries.

    There isn't room for hordes regiments discount. In vanilla it's actually possible to reach 1.5 ducats per infantry regiment, or 0.04 ducats per month. When maintenance costs become so low, force limits lose their relevance. Once again hordes can't smother their neighbours as easily as they could before, for the risk is bankruptcy and the inability to wage war.

    Lastly, the global revolt risk increase was removed. The constant popping up of small rebel stacks proved to be a nuisance more than a challenge: new dynamics pertaining to succession crises were introduced. Rebels are more likely to appear when specific circumstances occur, or as a result of other players espionage efforts.

    These are the new modifiers that characterise "Steppe Hordes":


    -3 legitimacy per year
    +30% force limits
    +30% manpower

    The force limits and manpower boosts are twice as important as those tied to "Feudal Monarchy". Along with beta and mod changes to attrition gained in hostile provinces, they are sufficient to support offensives. In vanilla every horde featured unusually low values on their land slider generally a mere -1. In the mod hordes start with their land slider to its leftmost position. So while the initial manpower and force limits are slightly lower than vanilla, the potential for the astonishing vanilla values is markedly attenuated. If you want more manpower you need to conquer provinces.

    "Steppe Hordes" will lose three legitimacy points every year. When the latter goes below a critical value a triggered modifier will kick in, named "Apprehension over Succession":


    Triggers:

    either lower legitimacy than 70
    or lower heir claim than 70
    or no heir

    Effects:


    +5 global revolt risk
    +0.18 war exhaustion per month

    The value (70) was chosen because the engine labels any claim above it as "strong". Unlike vanilla when revolt risk is always high for hordes it will only kick in when legitimacy is low in the mod. The war exhaustion increase won't be a problem unless the player is entangled in challenging wars it though prevents raising war taxes.

    If a monarch dies when there's "apprehension over the succession" then a "succession crisis" will be triggered. In the unmodded game, "succession crises" are automatic whenever the monarch dies. Rebels will make their appearance, sometimes in great quantities: while their numbers depend on the size of the realm in the mod, the vanilla event invariably summons two stacks.

    To avoid these catastrophic events the player therefore needs to maintain the ruler's legitimacy high enough. This post describes what affects legitimacy. A few additional remarks would be useful though:

    Whenever hordes gain control over enemies provinces they obtain legitimacy. While that's a flat +1 in vanilla, it depends on the horde's size in the mod. Smaller ones have fewer opportunities to siege provinces, yet their legitimacy loss is the same -3 per year, so the rewards for sacking one province are bigger. Here's a simple table:
    • +2 legitimacy (large hordes)
    • +3 legitimacy (modest hordes)
    • +5 legitimacy (small hordes)
    Please note that hordes can't hire Grand Marshals to increase legitimacy. Their war exhaustion problems are overall less threatening to legitimacy, seeing as hordes benefit from the "peace" modifier when they avoid wars against other hordes. Given that every war that is automatically started is considered as offensive, conceding defeat results in -20 legitimacy, it's therefore essential to avoid these settlements. Yet another change: pretenders are a big threat to hordes, every time they occupy a province they decrease the owner's legitimacy by three.

    Last come two considerations:

    While in vanilla hordes have an administrative multiplier of 1.3, it's distinctively less effective in the mod, as it's a plain 2. This change implies two things: a) it takes longer to move the national focus and sliders and b) the larger one grows, the more time it's going to take to perform those two actions.

    In vanilla, hordes' minimum policy must be lower than two notches towards decentralisation and lower than one notch towards narrow-mindedness. In "Omnium Contra Omnes", that's -3 free subjects at most and +3 decentralisation at least: sliders which positively affect income were basically associated with higher revolt risk, so to make a change of government desirable even for technological purposes.

  9. #389
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    A new version was uploaded. There were several changes, yet to be described. Seminaries, Arsenals and Naval Arsenals will now persist, for years, in provinces which aren't land connected — the longer they remain overseas the higher the chances of losing them though. The mod now relies on the latest beta, its checksum reads XUUL and is available here.

    It'd be interesting to read reports about Ming China and hordes. Since extensive changes were introduced weeks ago, in those regions, it's possible there may be bugs or imbalanced aspects that slipped through.

  10. #390
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Code:
    naval_arsenal = {
     	previous = grand_shipyard
    	cost = 300
    	time = 24
    	modifier = { local_ship_cost = -0.45 }
    	trigger = {or = {
    		is_overseas = no 
    		has_building = naval_arsenal
    	}}
    	destroy_on_conquest = yes
    }
    I think you need to add a trigger to naval arsenal - though of course I may be wrong.
    Last edited by lukew; 02-07-2012 at 17:50.
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  11. #391
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    I think you need to add a potential to naval arsenal.
    It's a "trigger", rather than "potential" but yes, it's needed. New version's up, thanks.

  12. #392
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    It's a "trigger", rather than "potential" — but yes, it's needed. New version's up, thanks.
    Yeah i noticed an edited the post already. And np
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  13. #393
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Prohibit the Trade of Tartar Slaves

    This new accessory decision, destined to every steppe horde, reads:


    It is deplorable how many Tartar young men are bound in slavery, sold by their distressed families to local noblemen or foreign magnates. These trades persist despite our military successes and the enslavement of foreign people: some among our people seem to entertain the twisted notion of subduing their own. Not only is this practice a social bane, it is also detrimental to conscriptions and our military efforts, as manpower and prestige are subtracted to our forces. We could reimburse a good number of slave owners so to emancipate Tartar captives. Despite inevitable opposition, we would also warrant additional security for every Tartar commoner and put an end to this shameful trade.

    The description changes depending on one's culture (Tartar, Mongol, Turkmeni, etc.), it's meant to reward marauders (ducats from loot) and those who force neighbours to pay tribute. It's a good device to increase income in the long run, provided one expands into salt, iron and fur areas. The requirements are:


    any core belonging to one's culture is affected by the national focus
    legitimacy is higher than 95
    80% of one's provinces are cores
    the ruler's administrative rating is eight or higher

    The decision allows a) one stab hit free slider move towards free-subjects, while b) it increases the manpower base of any national focus affected province whose culture is the state's. The slider move increases production income, the difference naturally depends on local production efficiency and the price of produced goods. The free subjects slider though also negatively affects infantry costs, yet steppe hordes heavily rely on cavalry. The amount of manpower gained depends on how many provinces feature the national focus and which modifiers affect manpower.

    There are impediments and drawbacks to the decision, that's the essence of any decision:
    • the price, in terms of ducats, is hefty
    • nobles may revolt
    • stability costs will increase as a result of the slider move away from serfdom
    The slider moves a horde player can count one are few, as their administrative efficiency is low. The path to sedentarisation, westernisation and military supremacy is likely to require several slider moves, thus sidelining the serfdom slider. Hordes will though occasionally rack up large amounts of ducats, with few investment opportunities. The slave ban is far from a key decision, but it's an additional option to consider when westernisation becomes a possibility: lower tech costs are best paired with higher income.

    Last edited by silktrader; 02-07-2012 at 18:57.

  14. #394
    After having tried the mod single player, I have to say that the legitimacy/stability coupling is quite disastrous for eastern countries. Playing as a Japan minor, my ruler died. This reduced my stability to -2 and my legitimacy to 20. The low legitimacy reduces stability investments. Even when I put the slider to full stability I am actually losing investment. I have no cultural tradition to get a decent artist. At the same time my legitimacy stays low due to the low stability. The reinforcement between the two makes it very hard to get out of this situation. Is this really intended? Eastern countries have really low investment rates unforunately an a -12 stab investment (at worst) is really really tough.

    another point: The plague event seems to fire too much. If I choose to contain it it will cost me -0.35 magistrates a year for about two years. Having united japan (many provinces) I don't get net magistrates anymore for about a decade already... My government only gives me +0.3. The more provinces the more plague events while magistrates don't scale with the amount of provinces (at low tech at least).
    Last edited by Brasem; 03-07-2012 at 03:53.

  15. #395
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Firstly, Japan is the one region that remains to be reviewed, as its setup is exactly the same as in vanilla. So much effort was put into restructuring the hordes, China and western countries! Yet you try the one country that was neglected!

    The problem with Japan is that it features provinces whose tax base (3.5 average) and production income (8 average) are extremely low. Income per province is drag, therefore stability and technology are slow to improve. The solution I've considered, so far, is to increase population levels and tax base but reduce the number of provinces: income will remain more or less the same, if not a bit higher to increase the array of strategies, yet stability and technology costs will be definitely lower.

    An example: Mutsu's tax base is two, its yearly income is 2.46 ducats. The province's stability cost is 85, while its technology cost is generally higher than 300. It's not the only such province — Dewa, Kozuke, Hitachi, Musashi, etc. are similar.

    As for your test, when your monarch dies, during a siege or a battle, you will lose one stability point. You were particularly unlucky, as, on top of the monarch's violent death, a new dynasty rose in your country (immediate reset to 20 legitimacy). So, you're losing 7.20 stability per month, while your overall income is but 4.8 ducats. When your legitimacy sits at 50 you won't gain, nor lose, stability investment — below that it's a loss, one you can't cover with 4.8 ducats per month. Getting a new king would increase your legitimacy. Investing in stability with the current one proves to be a waste.

    Concerning cultural tradition, you start with 20%, so you're able to hire a modest artist. Perhaps snatch a randomly generated one. Prestige provides cultural tradition, but nothing surpasses Patron of the Arts. The "Way of the Tea" is the only Japanese decision that grants cultural tradition, along with the Karesansui Garden. You're too backwards to be able to trade to gain cultural tradition. So, you're short of options compared to most other countries. Again, I couldn't review Japanese options, whereas the West and other areas feature more possibilities.

    There are three small tweaks that can be introduced, to deal with both common and extreme cases of low legitimacy:

    a) Increase chances of a "Grand Marshal" appearing in domestic provinces when legitimacy is low. Other advisors were already designed to appear when needed, rather than randomly.

    b) Introduce a +3 stability investment for each ruler administrative point. Reconsider the trade and production investments, or switch the government investment to the diplomatic rating. While there's a neighbour bonus relative to technology, there isn't such a bonus tied to stability. Rulers' minimal value is three, which is +9 stability per month at worst.

    c) Cook up an occasional event which offers to removes dynasties when legitimacy is abysmal, by crowning a new king with at least modest legitimacy. The cost would be pretenders rising, so the risk to endure one more low legitimacy cycle. Such an event would create the possibility to purposely get rid of monarchs, so it needs to be carefully evaluated.


  16. #396
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    (WINE is reported to run Divine Wind flawlessly, Brasem)

  17. #397
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brasem View Post
    another point: The plague event seems to fire too much. If I choose to contain it it will cost me -0.35 magistrates a year for about two years. Having united japan (many provinces) I don't get net magistrates anymore for about a decade already... My government only gives me +0.3. The more provinces the more plague events while magistrates don't scale with the amount of provinces (at low tech at least).
    Building "sanitation" prevents plagues altogether. Don't "contain" plagues in provinces which feature low population, or border but one or two other provinces (corners): it's a waste of magistrates and ducats. A "Natural Scientist" will significantly slow down the spread of plagues. These will decrease in frequency as you increase production efficiency, which is meant to signal the evolution of medical practice. Naturally, as a low tech, large, Japan you're fully exposed to plagues. The frequency seemed about right during my tests and the last multiplayer campaigns, it's important that it doesn't fire too often as the pop up disrupts multiplayer games.

    Magistrates are gained through stability, spheres of influence, various decisions and government type. I doubt you are close to building colleges, but those are an important source. Switch to an Imperial government, unless you cherish your manpower and force limits: the additional prestige will provide more spheres, thus more magistrates and so will the new government type.

  18. #398
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Yam Relay Stations

    The two largest steppe nomads, the Golden Horde and the Timurid Empire, control vast tracts of land. Most of those poor provinces are rather large, feature woody or mountainous terrain and therefore require a long time to cross. At the same time these hordes generally suffer from instability and rebel problems.

    This new provincial decision is meant to help with addressing rebels and foes: it shortens the time armies spend moving. The description reads:


    The Yam is a system of supply posts that allows expedite movement of envoys, scouts and military material across vast regions. Each guarded post provides bedding, supplies and ready horses for authorised personnel. Pairing a dashing intelligence network with equally fast armies will greatly facilitate military operations within our homeland.

    These are the requirements:


    the "Steppe Horde" government
    the province is within the national focus radius or near an existent Yam relay post
    units are present in the province
    the horde's army is comprised for two thirds of cavalry

    The decision costs:


    3,000 men from the manpower pool
    0.5 officials

    The effects, which last until the province is either lost or the government is reformed:


    +35% armies speed
    -8 unit weight

    The speed increase results in about ten days shaved off from one steppe province to another. In mountainous, highland or woody areas the reduction is larger. It goes without saying but the more provinces one has to cross, the more beneficial is a network of Yam relay posts.

    The unit weight decrease means that armies can include eight more regiments that the supply limit, without incurring attrition.

    Please note that the decision costs about 0.5 magistrates, which hordes obtain by either increasing stability, creating spheres, or by sacking large cities and abducting their citizens. Relay stations can only be set in provinces which are affected by the national focus or near other supply posts. It therefore takes a bit of planning to connect two distant ends.

  19. #399
    Thanks for your replies Silk, I have to say I really like the idea behind the mod.

    One more observation from the game I played as Japan. It seemed like China was able to tech really fast compared to all its neighbours. Especially land tech seemed to go very fast. When I had land tech 7 China had land tech 14 already. All their other techs were about 3 levels ahead of me (and its neighbours) as well. Is China just very rich, or are there other dynamics at play here?

    Then I have one suggestion/request: Would it be possible to switch the colonist bonus from 'free trade' to 'naval'? I think it makes more sense if you get extra colonists from being a maritime nation. For eastern countries it is quite hard to gain colonists at all. In order to westernise you need to go innovative, so you lose the colonist bonus from narrowminded. And most eastern countries start very mercantilistic. It is not worthwhile to go free trade, because my the time you get there you might benefit more from monopolizing your own COT (the Europeans are outcompeting you in all the other COTS). So you're basically stuck with 0 colonists for most of the game. What do you think? Would it change the balance too much to move the colonist bonus from free trade to naval?

  20. #400
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brasem View Post
    One more observation from the game I played as Japan. It seemed like China was able to tech really fast compared to all its neighbours. Especially land tech seemed to go very fast. When I had land tech 7 China had land tech 14 already. All their other techs were about 3 levels ahead of me (and its neighbours) as well. Is China just very rich, or are there other dynamics at play here?
    The technological rate is the same for China, Japan and other Eastern countries. The Chinese income per province though is higher (20, 30%) than their neighbours, on account of production goods, tax base, production units and harbour fees. The marginal technology cost per province becomes lower the nearer one draws to eight provinces: most Chinese neighbours aren't that big, although your Japan appears to be. It'd be interesting to compare your income per province with Ming's.

    There are two ways to westernise, at any level: a) through a reviewed westernisation decision, which excludes the "Celestial Government" (reformation is necessary) and b) by catching up in technology with the group ahead of you. I doubt Ming managed to catch up with Muslims was that actually the case in your game?

    Then I have one suggestion/request: Would it be possible to switch the colonist bonus from 'free trade' to 'naval'?
    In conceptual terms the relationship between colonists and the naval slider is logic and strong. I thought about assigning colonists to "naval", rather than "free trade". This is why I ultimately discarded the idea:

    I wanted to separate the ability to colonise, from the ability to extract wealth from overseas provinces: so that slider and ideas combinations would be needed, increasing the array of choices and complexity. Eventually I ended up concluding that the "naval" slider was more apt to determine how profitable colonies were, as it also increases naval force limits to cover tariffs needs and decreases ships costs and maintenance.

    So, to represent the connection between naval and colonists, I thought a decision tied to the naval slider (+3) would be sufficient, one which doesn't require national ideas. Vanilla's "Thalassocracy" decision isn't relevant for our purposes since it's (a) specific to the early merchant republics and (b) badly needs a review. Initially I had also wondered whether decentralisation should improve one's colonisation attempts (again, by way of a decision).

    In order to westernise you need to go innovative, so you lose the colonist bonus from narrowminded.
    In all but few cases you do need to move towards innovativeness to westernise. In a test game I managed to westernise via event, playing as a mildly narrowminded Russia, in the late 1500s. I put the stress on production and trade technologies, neglecting land tech: so I doubt I would have survived in a multiplayer campaign.

    So you're basically stuck with 0 colonists for most of the game.
    If analysis dictates that (a) you need to remain mercantilist and (b) you can't be narrowminded, then you have but two remaining options: the "Colonial Ventures" national idea and a decision (missing at this point). It's the same scenario as with spies as the Netherlands you would want to be (a) free trader and (b) geared for plutocracy: so the only remaining sources for spies would be piracy and the "Espionage" national idea.

    These +1 national ideas have always been relegated to an inconsequential state because there's an excessive number of agents available through decisions or other means. They used to increase their respective gain rates, rather than be essential. I believe every agent (diplomat, missionary, colonist, spies, etc.) should be exclusive to few aspects, so to reinforce these national ideas and related decisions.

    ***

    Brasem, don't let me dissuade you from your views. If you think that, regardless of decisions, the naval slider should provide colonists in lieu of free trade, then come up with new numbers for the land-naval slider and the mercantilism-free trade one. We could reach a consensus and adopt your proposed values.

    It'd be interesting to check your saved game. Do you think you could either attach them in this thread, or mail them to me (nickname@gmail.com).

    Lastly, if you had ideas about the name and description of an historically plausible decision, granting colonists, tied to the naval slider, that'd be welcome!

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