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Thread: Omnium Contra Omnes — a Multiplayer Modification

  1. #321
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Omg, just finished reading this, it's taken 5 hours to read (and integrate). Time for an afternoon nap I think - SilkTrader please tell me you're job involves writing essays because if it does I have a feeling you'd be great at it.
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  2. #322
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    Omg, just finished reading this, it's taken 5 hours to read (and integrate). Time for an afternoon nap I think - SilkTrader please tell me you're job involves writing essays because if it does I have a feeling you'd be great at it.
    Luke, if it took hours to read changes then I mustn't have done a good job: it's a game we're talking about, not a philosophical dissertation — I meant to be concise!

  3. #323
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    Luke, if it took hours to read changes then I mustn't have done a good job: it's a game we're talking about, not a philosophical dissertation — I meant to be concise!
    No it's fine! I found it all interesting and half the time was integrating it and trying stuff out. Each individual part was concise, you just changed a lot!

    PS Shame the attack dogs aren't real

    PS D&T 3 mp game is up with OCO changes in it if any of you want to play
    We need some experienced players for majors if any of you guys are interested?
    Last edited by lukew; 27-05-2012 at 18:20.
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  4. #324
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    I've come to the healthy conclusion that persisting with ulterior modifications, without releasing the results, actually borders onanism — so I've updated the now month old version (first post).

    A few notes:
    • the mod now require the latest beta to be installed — available here
    • every beta change was integrated with a notable exception
    • manpower regain rates are five times higher than the beta, maximum manpower remains the same
    • the archive is noticeably bigger, as the map was changed and a new cache generated (map changes in China, such as the inclusion of the Yellow river, etc.)
    • a new multiplayer campaign is being planned

  5. #325
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Town Halls

    Among the "government" line of buildings there was no need to change "town halls" effects, which therefore remain the same: +25% tax income modifier. In the unmodded game the building was a rare sight, as players generally relinquished its use in capital provinces (which needed a spy agency) and trade centre provinces (high tax base). Since temples, courthouses and gendarmeries now have relevant and contextual uses, the three magistrates spent to get to the "town hall" aren't a waste anymore.

    Putting this consideration aside, there were two slight changes:

    a) Town halls significantly speed up the occurrence of "Successful Bureaucracy", an event tied to the "Bureaucracy" national idea, providing three magistrates. The event will fire more often provided one has at least 1/4th of his provinces covered by the building. "Expanded Bureaucracy" and an excellent administrative ruler also contribute to a more frequent incidence.

    b) The old "Benign Neglect" event was also reviewed: it's now exclusive to provinces which have a "Town Hall". The event narrates that good local management is proving to be effective, the player is given the choice to move the national focus to the affected province, or benefit from a production increasing modifier bearing significant advantages. The option to move the national focus is particularly enticing as general administrative efficiency ratings were decreased: it takes longer to move sliders and change focus in the mod. It goes without saying but moving around the national focus allows one to save magistrates while erecting buildings. "Benign Neglect" is more frequent the more decentralised one is.

    Lastly, five town halls are required for the Ottomans' "Provincial System" to be enacted.

    In conclusion, town halls increase local tax income, along with census. They have also an tangible role in saving magistrates. These buildings are especially useful to decentralised states, which count on low build costs but earn fewer inflation-free ducats compared to centralised states.


  6. #326
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Seminaries

    Old "Cathedrals" were renamed to "Seminaries" (Christians), "Madrasah" (Muslims) and "Academies" (Eastern). This is but a semantic correction, seeing as "Cathedrals", in a religious context, are but Christian temples.

    These were the effects in vanilla:


    +10 stability investment
    +25% spy defence
    +1% local missionary chance
    +0.05 missionaries a year

    As the final building in the government line, cathedrals used to require colleges. They precede them in the mod, as they are considered to represent the religious education or indoctrination of subjects, while colleges are the secular counterpart. The local spy defence is redundant, it would thwart any espionage attempt (an easy requirement for capitals). The stability investment was reassigned to "Fine Arts Academies", in the mod. In vanilla one could neglect such a bonus, given the negligible costs to raising stability. The contribution to missionary chances can't justify the opportunity cost (other buildings) and the magistrate loss (one for a missionary, over twenty years).

    "Seminaries" bonus now is:


    -3% build cost

    The discount is applied nation wide, it's cumulative with decentralisation benefits and can therefore be stacked. There's a limit to the number of seminaries that can be constructed, so the overall discount will hardly ever surpass 50%. It goes without saying but the more magistrates one gains, and the higher the technological level, the more beneficial seminaries are.

    Let us assume a country spends about 400 base ducats a year on buildings: a modest estimate by the middle game, when seminaries come into play. Every year, a seminary would therefore equal 12 inflation-free ducats. By comparison a mint (the "production" counterpart of "seminaries) would net about 7 ducats a year, 3.5 being inflation free, in the average European province (base tax six + workshop). Now, "Mints" also increase force limits, and their contribution quickly increases the higher a province's tax base is, among other things. This quick comparison though demonstrates how profitable "seminaries" can be for a large empire, one featuring an extensive net of spheres and many magistrates a year.

    We've considered an average expense of 400 ducats a year, but that number could easily surpass this arbitrary estimate if one planned the construction of manufactories. Supposing your next one will cost 2000 ducats, each seminary in your country will reduce that amount by sixty ducats. Here's a table of buildings cost, to provide a better idea of the scale of savings:

    tier 1 — 50 ducats
    tier 2 — 75 ducats
    tier 3 — 100 ducats
    tier 4 — 150 ducats
    tier 5 — 200 ducats
    tier 6 — 300 ducats

    Seminaries are a requirement for "Publicly Funded Schools" (decision), "Baroque Music" (decision), "South German Organ Tradition" (decision), "Suffragan Bishop Act" (decision) and "Superintendents" (decision). These should all be described in their own sections.

    Having discussed effects, there's a second substantial difference between vanilla "cathedrals" and the mod's "seminaries": you can only build the latter in provinces where religious tolerance is zero or positive, you can't have seminaries in overseas provinces.

    The tolerance requirement is in line with the mod's intentions, to increase the relevance of national ideas like "Ecumenism" or "Humanist Tolerance" along with decisions affecting tolerance and conversions. Overseas provinces are more remunerative in "Omnium Contra Omnes", but to expand their production capabilities requires magistrates: colonial powers may have to choose between building land, naval or production infrastructure in their home land or increase their long term ability to improve national infrastructure. This aspect is explored in the discussion concerning "colleges".

    Last edited by silktrader; 15-06-2012 at 22:21.

  7. #327
    Lt. General Francech's Avatar
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    When silk told me about the further modification i was not aware that there was so much and i must say i did not expect that it would take so much time into account. So i have to take more time to give a elaborate response to the news on the mod.
    In memory of my friend

  8. #328
    will patch 5.2 (manpower changes etc) also influence this mod?

  9. #329
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brasem View Post
    will patch 5.2 (manpower changes etc) also influence this mod?
    In the version attached to the first post I multiplied every province's manpower base by five, so to offset beta changes. Now, since …
    • the beta manpower changes are here to stay (attrition, casualties and other changes go in this direction and are hardcoded)
    • manpower base determines the size of rebel stacks (not the ones caused by events) — discouraging multiplication by five
    • manpower base determines the starting number of ships — discouraging multiplication by five
    … provinces manpower base will return to beta values (divided by five), with the concomitant restrictions on manpower replenishment. This change obviously requires adjustments, these items should be reviewed:
    • events like the "traitors"
    • decisions like the "Societas Jesu" or the "Indelningsverket"
    • mechanisms like Crusaders' "enrollments"
    • "Regimental Camps"
    • HRE and vassals bonus
    Mercenaries are fine as they are (there is a new decision: mercenary armies or permanent armies). But the last item yet to be balanced would be "force limits". Since manpower will now be the earliest, most impending, limiting factor during war — force limits lose relevance. In other words, while you can field x regiments over force limits, you wouldn't be able to reinforce them in the medium run; so there's definitely fewer incentives to going above limits. Since casualties were decreased in the beta, the effect additional force limits have on war exhaustion also diminished …

    I will upload the new version tomorrow.

  10. #330
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    In the version attached to the first post I multiplied every province's manpower base by five, so to offset beta changes. Now, since …
    • the beta manpower changes are here to stay (attrition, casualties and other changes go in this direction and are hardcoded)
    • manpower base determines the size of rebel stacks (not the ones caused by events) — discouraging multiplication by five
    • manpower base determines the starting number of ships — discouraging multiplication by five
    … provinces manpower base will return to beta values (divided by five), with the concomitant restrictions on manpower replenishment. This change obviously requires adjustments, these items should be reviewed:
    • events like the "traitors"
    • decisions like the "Societas Jesu" or the "Indelningsverket"
    • mechanisms like Crusaders' "enrollments"
    • "Regimental Camps"
    • HRE and vassals bonus
    Mercenaries are fine as they are (there is a new decision: mercenary armies or permanent armies). But the last item yet to be balanced would be "force limits". Since manpower will now be the earliest, most impending, limiting factor during war — force limits lose relevance. In other words, while you can field x regiments over force limits, you wouldn't be able to reinforce them in the medium run; so there's definitely fewer incentives to going above limits. Since casualties were decreased in the beta, the effect additional force limits have on war exhaustion also diminished …

    I will upload the new version tomorrow.
    How did you multiply every provinces manpower by five. If you add local_manpower_modifier to every city then it will create issues with other modifiers since they are additive. That's the problem I'm having, how did you overcome it?
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  11. #331
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    How did you multiply every provinces manpower by five. If you add local_manpower_modifier to every city then it will create issues with other modifiers since they are additive. That's the problem I'm having, how did you overcome it?
    I wrote a Python script that replaced (reg exp) every line containing "manpower = x" with "manpower = x*5", in each "/history/provinces" file. Really, it's more or less pointless as it introduces other issues (bigger rebel stacks, starting ships and other things).

  12. #332
    Vice Co-Regent Syber_sid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    I wrote a Python script that replaced (reg exp) every line containing "manpower = x" with "manpower = x*5", in each "/history/provinces" file. Really, it's more or less pointless as it introduces other issues (bigger rebel stacks, starting ships and other things).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

  13. #333
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syber_sid View Post
    I second that
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  14. #334
    Major kepler's Avatar
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    It's amazing the amount of work and documentation that went into this mod. I have noticed it is a "multiplayer" mod but certainly Vanilla would benefit from a lot of balancing and tweaks. Does the AI cope well with your modifications?
    "The path to knighthood is paved with strength and nobility not LSD and sideburns." - Black Knight

  15. #335
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syber_sid View Post
    Python scripts are to nerdiness as LEGO spaceships are to rocket science. Of course I wouldn't expect a Diablo player to grasp the subtlety. How many IQ points have you lost since May… and to say you've ditched your boyfriend and EU mates for that sorry excuse of an RPG — I hope you catch some exotic mouse-transmitted disease!

  16. #336
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by kepler View Post
    Does the AI cope well with your modifications?
    No, the AI doesn't cope well in the unmodded game and should perform worse in the mod compared to players. With each increase to complexity the AI would need to be instructed to take advantage of opportunities and dodge threats — while it's possible to steer the AI's choice concerning decisions, event options and building opportunities, many aspects are out of reach. An example:

    Countries which base their economy on cloth, but lack adequate raw materials (wool, silk, cotton), will be affected by shortages which decrease their cloth production efficiency. It's complicated to advise the AI to acquire new wool provinces before gaining cloth provinces. One could pave the AI's way with missions, but there generally are few modding commands to help the AI with.

    In the mod, a poor effort was put to alter the AI with regards to decisions and event choices. In some cases (low stability) the AI has been encouraged to play more carefully (by setting a "balanced" personality), but these tweaks generally yield but modest results.

  17. #337
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    New version's up, in the first post (requires 5.2 beta, released on June, the 11th).

  18. #338
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    New version's up, in the first post (requires 5.2 beta, released on June, the 11th).
    From which point on in your descriptions does it include new stuff? Is it just the seminaries?
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  19. #339
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by lukew View Post
    From which point on in your descriptions does it include new stuff? Is it just the seminaries?
    I am sorry, I haven't been updating descriptions because I lack time. While "seminaries" were described two weeks ago they had been part of the mod for months. Changes to Ming, nomads, buildings, spy missions old and new, permanent taxation system, permanent armies, the late game cultural decisions, corvιe, loan seeking AIs, financial decisions, levant trade, silk road, intricate alliances, bla bla bla … aren't yet described.

  20. #340
    MEIOU and Taxes lukew's Avatar
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    Well I look forward to the descriptions
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