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Thread: Omnium Contra Omnes a Multiplayer Modification

  1. #281
    Colonel saharez's Avatar
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    I agree that Milan should automaticly be drawn into the second war aswell, it should be possible to have several active wars against the same nation, whether or not that is possibly I don't know though.

  2. #282
    First Lieutenant madmagnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    You are suggesting that overlords receive an event allowing them to initiate wars against their vassals enemies, without losing stability obviously. I see why this can be desirable — to avoid a human player starting a separate war against a human vassal, and keeping at war after the truce with overlord. I don't see major drawbacks at this moment.

    Technically, it may be simpler to force a white peace between the vassal and the aggressor, when a truce with the overlord is in act. Otherwise I doubt we can let the overlord in the same war with his vassal (for war score purposes), or even with the same casus belli. Since they are separate wars, the aggressor will have to fight the overlord, but may still annex the vassal by dealing directly with him.

    I didn't express myself very clearly, so I'll bring up an example:

    In "Est Modus in Rebus", recently, Milan declared war on Austria. The Italians didn't call in their vassals, the Papal States. When the war was about to end Austria declared war on the Papal States, seeing as Modena still featured the "Unlawful Territory" modifier, despite being a core for quite some time (I am decreasing the removal's MTTH). When Milan peaced out, Austria remained at war against the Papal States — Milan's vassal. The Italians couldn't intervene without losing five stability, due to the truce. Milan might have prevented these circumstances by calling in the Papal States during the original aggression.

    Now, suppose a newly introduced event put Milan and Austria at war. There would still be two separates wars, war scores and leaders: so Austria could nonetheless annex the Papal States.

    What do you think.
    I would prefer not initiating separate war but putting liege in an existing war, if it can be scripted and if one country can be in a different wars with another simultaneously.
    In other case automatic white peace is indeed seems like a more robust solution.
    Last edited by madmagnum; 21-03-2012 at 15:06.

  3. #283
    I'm certainly still a little bit rocky on the minutiae of the engine mechanics, however...

    I'd personally favour an automatic White Peace with vassal kind of situation. Otherwise, taking yesterday's event for an example -

    If I'd been given an offer to join the war on the side of the Papal States after the conclusion of the original conflict, I'd have had to have given it some serious consideration. It was England's backing that made Austria peace out in the initial war. With that gone, I couldn't have necessarily counted on them assisting me. Certainly not without offering them some kind of incentive.

    It would be much the same in situations where, for example, nations are bribed or bought into fighting a specific war on a specific side. They might have tipped the balance in the original conflict - but the vassal's overlord may not be able to pursue and win a second war alone in the immediate and subsequent conflict.

    Really, the way it's done seems largely more like taking advantage of the engine than anything else anyway. Vassal states are vassals precisely because they lack autonomy. DW'ing them a moment before accepting an offered peace deal from their liege, precisely to avoid both breaking a truce and having to deal with the liege, is a bit shady. You can certainly solve the latter by offering an event to draw the overlord state into that war if they so choose -- but both problems are solved by an automatic white peace solution.
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  4. #284
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    Going to have to bow out of this campaign unless it remains at the same time for me, which for Europeans would be an hour later.
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  5. #285
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Conversion Chances

    Two factors influence the speed at which one converts provinces: a) the number of available missionaries and b) yearly conversion chances. It goes without saying but it is desirable to shorten as much as possible the time to convert — these are the reasons (in the mod):
    • missionary maintenance is calculated on a yearly basis — the longer the conversion the higher the end cost
    • active missionaries increase stability costs
    • active missionaries increase revolt risk
    • active missionaries decrease the rate at which one gains missionaries
    • active missionaries prevent one from improving the provincial infrastructure

    In vanilla conversion chances are decidedly too high, as is the number of missionaries earnt every year. The outcome is obvious — large areas like the Balkans or Africa are converted within decades of the start or conquest. The following screenshot illustrates a very common development (please notice India, converted first to Catholicism and then to Protestantism, 16th century):


    The mod aims at making conversions last longer, therefore increasing their difficulty and expenditure. It also incites players to hinder each others efforts through spy missions and religious wars.

    This table gives a rough idea of how long a conversion requires, depending on the yearly conversion chances:

    Base yearly chances, yielding derived success chances over periods (approx.):

    1% over 25 years means 22%
    1% over 50 years means 40%
    1% over 75 years means 53% — for an average expense during the period of 900 ducats, plus upfront
    1% over one cnt. means 63%
    3% over 25 years means 53% — for an average expense during the periof of 300 ducats, plus upfront
    3% over 50 years means 78%
    5% over 15 years means 53% — for an average expense during the period of 180 ducats, plus upfront
    5% over 30 years means 78%
    7% over 10 years means 52%

    This is an exhaustive list of aspects affecting conversion chances, in "Omnium Contra Omnes":

    Code:
    		
    		Ruler's ADM (max):			+5.4%
    		Ruler's ADM (min):			+2%
    		Theologian (max):			+5%
    		National Focus (radius):		+3%
    		Forcible Conversion:			+3%		(divine supremacy, all)
    		Societas Jesu:				+3%		(iberian, unam sanctam)
    		Haridasa Movement:			+2%		(hinduist)
    		Jizya:					+2%		(sunni)
    		Sakoku Law:				+2%		(japanese)
    		Military Order:				+2%		(catholic, unam sanctam)
    		Islamic Scholary Centre:		+1%		(muslim)
    		Austere Traditions:			+1%		(church attendance, christian)
    		Publicly Funded Schools:		+1%		(freesubjects)
    		Taoism Denounced:			+1%		(confucianist)
    		Act of Uniformity:			+1%		(reformed, protestant)
    		Animist, Shamanist:			+1%		(provinces)
    		Theocracy:				+3%
    		Mecca Control:				+2%		(in Sunni provinces excl.)
    		Roma Control:				+2%		(in Catholic provinces excl.)
    		Defender of the Faith:			+1%
    		
    		Non Accepted Culture:			-1%
    		Tax base (4):				-2%
    		Tax base (European av.):		-3%
    		Tax base (10):				-5%
    
    		Religious Countermovement:		-6%		(spy mission)
    		Western Trade:				-3%		(japanese)
    		Religious Minority Support:		-2%		(humanist tolerance)
    Combining these two tables one can infer that, in the mod, converting an average province, with tax base six, takes generally 30 years and little more than 300 ducats. There are multiple cases when conversion chances will be extremely low, such as when the ruler's administrative rating is low. Republics have therefore an innate advantage converting provinces, just as they do tolerating heretics. The national focus is particularly relevant — although its chief limit is its mobility.

    The new complications introduced when converting motivate players to consider a tolerant strategy — employing "Ecumenism" or "Humanist Tolerance" in lieu of conversions. The two national ideas are completely absent in vanilla multiplayer campaign.

    It's useful to remark that, since each active missionary decreases the missionaries gained per year, it may be advisable to prioritise certain provinces (one where infrastructure is already present, where conversion chances are high) rather than others, so not to cripple future conversion opportunities. Cancelling conversion missions is now a relevant option to reclaim missionaries.

    Lastly, one should bear in mind that, when the "Reformation" breaks out and new Christian creeds spread, a "Religious Zeal" modifier will be assigned to newly converted provinces. The modifier will last about fifteen years and prevent any conversion during that period. The modifier's presence is justified by the need to provide Lutheranism and Calvinism the needed momentum to enliven successive events.

    Last edited by silktrader; 14-04-2012 at 15:05.

  6. #286
    Hi, I have read some parts of your mod with great interest. Currently I don't have access to a decent computer but hopefully I will be able to join a multiplayer game soon. Maybe I did not read carefully enough, but did you do something about the tier 5 and 6 trade buildings giving global trade modifiers? Spamming these tier 5 and 6 trade buildings really resulted in ridiculously high incomes.

  7. #287
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brasem View Post
    Maybe I did not read carefully enough, but did you do something about the tier 5 and 6 trade buildings giving global trade modifiers? Spamming these tier 5 and 6 trade buildings really resulted in ridiculously high incomes.
    I couldn't agree more with your remark. There were but three articles written concerning "buildings", I didn't have time to elaborate on them. Simply put, these are the changes concerning tier five and six buildings:
    • Seminaries (gov. 5) — requires neutral tolerance, not overseas — -3% build costs
    • Colleges (gov. 6) — same as above, accepted culture — +0.1 magistrates
    • Arsenal (land 5) — requires 50,000 population, not overseas — +50% manpower
    • Conscription Centres (land 6) — same as above — +3 land force limits
    • Naval Arsenal (nav. 5) — not overseas — -45% ship costs
    • Naval Base (nav. 6) — same as above — +4 naval force limits
    • Mint (prod. 5) — no requirement — +50% taxation
    • Stock Exchange (prod. 6) — need new name — +5 tax income
    • Post Office (trade 5) — no requirement — +9 local trade income
    • Customs House (trade 6) — no requirement — +30% local trade worth
    • Fort 5 — no requirement — +100% defensiveness and +2 fort level
    • Fort 6 — no requirement — +10 max attrition and +2 supply limit

    Various decisions require x numbers of buildings. Some events consider the presence of a building in a province. Requirements by tier five buildings are passed on to the next level. Costs were revised, they are now higher for superior buildings. Most unique buildings were changed, as were standard buildings. Vanilla workshops (+1 tax income) and stock exchanges (+5 tax income) were taken as a reference to balance their alternatives in other branches.

  8. #288
    Awesome! Can't wait to try! Hopefully I will have a new computer later this month

  9. #289
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The Societas Jesu

    The old decision is succinctly described by this summary:


    Requirements:

    must be Portugal or Spain
    must be Catholic
    must have reached government tech 18

    Effects:

    +0.5% conversion chances

    The requirements are therefore rather lax; the effects though are absolutely immaterial. A +0.5% yearly conversion chance represents often less than a tenth of overall conversion chances, in vanilla. In years terms it represents, very approximately, +11% chances of conversion within twenty five years. The decision has no drawbacks, it's simple a waste of space among modifiers' icons.

    "Societas Jesu" was therefore redesigned, in the mod, to meet these goals: a) increase its own strength, by easing Catholic Iberians missions in the New World and elsewhere, and b) reinforce "Unam Sanctam" relevance, while c) creating reasons for competition between Portugal and Spain (as if proximity wasn't enough). It must be noted that other Catholic countries have an alternative lesser decision, tied to "Unam Sanctam", named "Charter Military Religious Orders".

    The new "Societas Jesu" provides:


    Requirements:

    must have the "Unam Sanctam" national idea
    must be Iberian and Catholic
    no other country can sponsor the "Societas Jesu"
    must have more than 65 Papal influence
    must have 3 missionaries

    Effects:

    -3 missionaries
    +3% conversion chances
    +5 government investment
    -3000 manpower base

    The hardest item to satisfy is obviously the one pertaining to "Papal influence": narrowmindedness, good relations, the "Heretico Comburendo Act", missionaries and crusades all help. It's useful to remark that Portugal will have a significant advantage early on, in meeting the requirement: since the Portuguese feature fewer Catholic provinces they will have lower chances of gaining cardinals, meaning their influence won't be halved every time one of their cardinals is ordained.

    The first taker prevents other Iberians to rely on the decision. The only way to restore that possibility is to force the modifier's beneficiary to switch out from "Unam Sanctam" or convert. In those cases the "Societas Jesu" will be lost and up for grabs. Excommunication was briefly considered as a secondary mean to reclaim the modifier, it was discarded.

    Jesuits historical contribution to governance, education and state affairs is well documented and represented by the +5 government tech investment it is the equivalent of a university, and a modestly compelling reason to enact the decision when small, or early on.

    The manpower reduction is meant to represent the able bodied men subtracted to possible enlistment, to be ordained within the military order: it's a significant drawback for manpower poor Portugal.

    As a last note, it must remarked how the +3% conversion chances bestowed by the "Societas Jesu" is actually the strongest one among decisions, equaling the bonus provided by the "national focus". The end result is more or less +50% chances of conversion within 25 years for any province with more than 0% base chances.

  10. #290
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Charter a Military Order

    This new addition is similar to the "Societas Jesu". It goes without saying but the two can't coexist at the same time; Iberians will only see the second as available, unless a rival has already enacted it. Protestant and Reformed creeds can't benefit from "military orders", but rely on the "Act of Uniformity" — tied to "Divine Supremacy", which helps their naturally lower missionaries gain (compared to Catholics).


    Requirements:

    must have the "Unam Sanctam" national idea
    must be Catholic
    must have more than 50 Papal influence
    must have more than 23,000 maximum manpower
    must have 3 missionaries

    Effects:

    -3 missionaries
    +2% conversion chances
    -5000 manpower base

    As is easily spotted, the conversion chances of common "military orders" are inferior to those of the Jesuits. The manpower requirement excludes a number of countries from an early selection. England remains a good candidate at the start, as does Castille finishing their "reconquista". Should the Spanish player host the "Societas Jesu" before the Portuguese one, the latter won't be able to support other military religious orders before it has expanded its manpower base.

    The manpower decrease, in this case, is superior to that of the "Societas Jesu". The decision will be repealed once "Unam Sanctam" is removed from the country, or when the state religion changes. It may therefore be advisable to "save" a few stability hits and infamy by declaring wars against heretics and heathens, to later switch the national idea paying possibly less stability.


  11. #291
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The "Orthodox Patriarchate" piece was reviewed to reflect changes.
    Last edited by silktrader; 09-04-2012 at 23:29.

  12. #292
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The Conquest of Mecca

    As with most aspects sparking conflicts between players or exhorting to diplomatic interaction, the exclusive control of the Holy City of Mecca has been revamped. These were the old effects and requirements:


    Requirements:

    must be Christian
    must own Mecca

    Effects:
    +1 prestige yearly
    +0.5 missionaries

    These are the new details:


    Requirements:

    must own and control Mecca

    Effects:
    +1 prestige yearly
    +0.25 missionaries
    +2% conversion chances in Sunni held provinces

    The missionaries gain was far too important, speeding up conversions drastically: it suffices to say that control of Mecca granted more benefits than selecting "Divine Supremacy", relinquishing the latter to being a futile national idea. The new value is in line with other modifiers. It is in fact common to see Mecca being sold by Muslim players and swapped around between other players, to temporarily help with conversions. To avoid Mecca being sold cheaply, its importance for Muslim countries was increased — there now is a valuable "Mecca Sharifate", explained elsewhere.

    Both ownership and control of Mecca are now required, meaning that rebels or foes will be disrupt or thwart the owner's conversion efforts. Holy War casus belli were changed, Muslim and Christians now get one when they share a border with cores. The non Muslim owner of Mecca though is always subject to "Jihads" — regardless of whether the year is past 1650, which signals the arbitrary end of crusades.

    Any creed that isn't Muslim benefits from owning Mecca, even more so when they own Muslim provinces that require conversion. The triggered modifier was previously a Christian exclusive.

    The lousy bit describing event #14100, assigning conversion chances in appropriate provinces, reads like this:


    We firmly hold the Holy City of Mecca, a beacon to Muslim followers. While our presence in the Holy place is met with growing resentment, we have nonetheless acquired an exceptional leverage in persuading Muslim believers to convert. The shimmering glitter of our swords in sunny Mecca is reported to cause enlightening epiphanies among heathens.

    Every six months on average every owned province will acquire a +2% conversion chances, in one big gulp, to avoid pop ups. Losing the triggered modifier will remove these additional chances, by way of another event, far slower than the previous, to avoid annoying fluctuations in control.

    Last edited by silktrader; 10-04-2012 at 00:09.

  13. #293
    My opinion is that the "+2% conversion chances in Sunni held provinces" should not be given. I have no idea to a possible alternative, but if i was muslim during these centuries and "my" holy land was taken by other religious group, i would never accept to convert and prefer to fight/die with my convictions.
    I'm not saying i will do the same now (^^), but i'm pretty sure in the past, people would have fight more against invaders and have not given up...
    Religion was far more important than now.


    Just my point of view, and sorry for my bad english.

  14. #294
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashalia View Post
    My opinion is that the "+2% conversion chances in Sunni held provinces" should not be given. I have no idea to a possible alternative, but if i was muslim during these centuries and "my" holy land was taken by other religious group, i would never accept to convert and prefer to fight/die with my convictions.
    Muslim provinces are, by default, harder to convert than others, in the mod (-1%) and vanilla (-2%), whilst animist and shamanist provinces have +1% local placement chance, for instance. The triggered modifier corrects that situation and is a distinctive help for whoever strives to convert Muslim areas. You won't be too happy to learn that non Catholic also have +2% conversion chances in Catholic provinces, when owning Rome.

    Ashalia, you need to stop apologising for your English; it's more articulate than most. This morning my girlfriend complained that "the tramway wouldn't walk" — c'est a dire, "le tram ne marche pas".

    I wonder what others opinions are, concerning Mecca and Rome's control.

  15. #295
    First Lieutenant madmagnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    This morning my girlfriend complained that "the tramway wouldn't walk" — c'est a dire, "le tram ne marche pas".
    In Russian and Ukrainian languages that would be correct expression if translated literally. Are you sure she is French?

    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    I wonder what others opinions are, concerning Mecca and Rome's control.
    If would add a requirement of Mecca and Rome being the same religion as owner and controller state one.

  16. #296
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The Conquest of Rome

    This triggered modifier is symetrical to the "Conquest of Mecca", it bestows these bonuses on the non Catholic controller of Rome:


    Requirements:

    must own and control Rome
    not Catholic

    Effects:
    +1 prestige yearly
    +0.25 missionaries
    +2% conversion chances in Catholic provinces

    The control of Rome turns out to be essential for a Protestant country wishing to convert speedily. While every Catholic can count on the "Counter Reformation" modifier, Calvinists and Lutheranists don't have an equivalent.

    The non Catholic owner of Rome is the object of a "Restore the Holy See" mission — which provides +25 prestige and -5 infamy when ceding Rome to the Papal State, it also increases papal influence and maxes relations. The mission won't fire unless 25 years have gone by since its last occurrence: the intent is that of avoiding redundancy and players taking advantage of the infamy reduction. It's very likely to get the mission a first time, it would take a long time before it is received again on cancelling it. Rome not being Catholic prevents the mission's occurrence — whilst the Eternal City being a capital decreases the chances of the mission being assigned.

    The "Papal Controller" main benefits (+0.5 magistrates, +1 tolerance) are offset when Catholic Rome isn't held by a Catholic country — it is in their interest to "Restore the Holy See".

    Non Christian owners of Rome are otherwise the target of a "Crusade" casus belli, granted to Catholics.

  17. #297
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmagnum View Post
    If would add a requirement of Mecca and Rome being the same religion as owner and controller state one.
    It sounds like a good, additional, elaboration. In that case, it should be noted that Mecca is easier to convert than Rome, on account of its low tax base.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by madmagnum View Post
    In Russian and Ukrainian languages that would be correct expression if translated literally. Are you sure she is French?
    One of the correct expression in french is "Le tram fonctionne", i suppose you translate that by "works"?
    But me and many of my knowledge use "marche" (walk) as well, even if it's incorrect


    If would add a requirement of Mecca and Rome being the same religion as owner and controller state one.
    i like your idea Madmagnum.
    Maybe we can add difficulty to convert Holy City as well?
    Last edited by ashalia; 10-04-2012 at 14:29.

  19. #299
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    The Sharifate of Mecca

    The Arabic title of "sharif" is one denoting a noble birth and restricted to descendants Muhammed's clan. The term isn't semantically related to the Anglosaxon "sherif". Traditionally, the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina have been guarded and administered by semi autonomous rulers (customarily the Hedjaz), affiliated to greater powers, such as the Mamluks or later the Ottoman Empire.

    This new triggered modifier was introduced to resolve two balance issues:
    • firstly, it provides a significant incentive for Muslim players to defend and keep Mecca, possibly excluding the customary sale of the Holy city
    • secondly, given the low number of Muslim monarchies, this creed is particularly penalised when fighting wars and maintaining high legitimacy
    To be titled the "Steward of Mecca", or "Sharif", one needs to either own, or control by means of a vassalisation, the city of Mecca. What's more, rebels or blockades put a stop to the the benefits provided by the modifier the Holy site being the destination of pilgrims. These are the boni granted:


    +1 own tolerance
    +1% yearly legitimacy

    The effects mimic the Orthodox Patriarchate and the Curia Control. Increasing one's own tolerance has the well known consequence of increasing population growth and decreasing revolt risk in tolerated areas.

    Please note that the "Sharifate of Mecca" would be surprisingly useful to steppe hordes, partially offsetting their yearly legitimacy loss; it is though an unlikely development. It's often the case that few surviving Muslim states remain in Europe, after the 17th century the "Sharifate", along with the "Hajj" and the "Diwani Script", allow one to survive modest war exhaustion and regencies, playing as Muslim sultanates.


  20. #300
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Religious Counter Movement

    We're talking about a new espionage mission whose purpose is to hinder other countries proselytising efforts. These are the aspects that substantiated its creation:
    • increase espionage relevance
    • justify the use of local gendarmeries (spy agencies)
    • provide additional uses for missionaries
    • stir conflicts between players

    The mission's effects are rather simple — conversion chances are lowered by 6%, in the affected province, for about thirteen years. These are the requirements, which include ducats and one spy, as with every espionage mission:


    one missionary
    an active missionary in the province
    same religion in the province as the spy sender's state religion

    The penalty for being discovered is one infamy point and three prestige, although chances of success are quite high: the mission's difficulty is four, the same as sponsoring patriots, nationalists, etc.

    The -6% conversion chances will, most often, prevent conversion altogether. The province converter may therefore want to "cancel" the mission, to restart it after the modifier has timed out. Since each active missionary decreases yearly missionaries by 0.15, thirteen years of no conversion chances would amount to about two missionaries lost by the converter — against the one lost by the spy.

    Undertaking "religious counter movement" is a good way to stall an opponent's conversion efforts. Theologians, who greatly help with conversions, have a limited lifespan (average of 25) — it is harmful to limit their contribution even for a decade. It goes without saying but the number of "counter movements" is limited by the number of spies and success chances, as well as the number of available missionaries. The mission is therefore particularly useful in the arms of a player who doesn't need to convert his provinces (such as the ones spared by the Reformation, in Europe). The "Counter-Reformation" decision provides additional missionaries, pairing well with "Religious Counter Movement".

    Active missionaries increase revolt risk, stability cost and prevent the construction of buildings — lengthening the time to convert directly affects these aspects.

    It is possible, easy even, to defend against the spy mission, by building a "gendarmery", increasing local spy defence. Generally, it may be a good idea to pave the way to conversion with "government" buildings, lowering base stability costs ("temple"), revolt risk ("courthouse") and thwarting espionage attempts ("gendarmery"). The general idea, as stated elsewhere, is to disperse espionage opportunities so to warrant the construction of "gendarmeries" (ex "spy agencies") in other places than the capital.

    Last edited by silktrader; 13-04-2012 at 17:35.

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