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Thread: Omnium Contra Omnes a Multiplayer Modification

  1. #201
    I remember a 'swiss mercenaries' event from magna mundi that gave troops, but coming to think of it those might not have been actual mercenaries. Unless anyone knows by heart I'll try and see if I can dig something up on it.

    As to the scots problem, couldn't you create an event triggering at a certain land tech and deflagging after a certain land tech to give a small morale boost? To create 'unique units'.

  2. #202
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Austere View Post
    I remember a 'swiss mercenaries' event from magna mundi that gave troops, but coming to think of it those might not have been actual mercenaries.
    A rare event offers +1000 manpower to a country at peace: when accepted the Swiss are paid eight ducats — it's a flavour event in "Magna Mundi" and other mods. Given the speed at which we play in multiplayer, human interaction, talks, etc. we need more significant events than this.

    We could have a decision lowering manpower for a decade or so, putting you at a risk in case of invasion: during that period nations could decide to use your manpower to increase theirs. But in multiplayer one can simply offer his services to another player by joining an alliance and asking for monetary compensation …

    As to the scots problem, couldn't you create an event triggering at a certain land tech and deflagging after a certain land tech to give a small morale boost?
    Yes, that's what vanilla does, more or less. What I meant by "unique units" is actually providing an alternative to "Longbows" or "Men at Arms", exclusive to Scotland, particularly good at dealing morale losses and obsolete with technology advances. You're the Scot, you reach a particular set of requirements and trigger a decision which sets your infantry type to "Highlander", rather than "Men at Arms". The decision ceases to be relevant when "Condotta" becomes available to all, and thus you — as "Condotta" is a better alternative to "Highlander".

    Anyway, it's not essential at all — I've briefly considered the idea, but there's certainly more demanding aspects.
    Last edited by silktrader; 07-02-2012 at 15:12.

  3. #203
    Lt. General Lama43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    A rare event offers +1000 manpower to a country at peace: when accepted the Swiss are paid eight ducats — it's a flavour event in "Magna Mundi" and other mods. Given the speed at which we play in multiplayer, human interaction, talks, etc. we need more significant events than this.

    We could have a decision lowering manpower for a decade or so, putting you at a risk in case of invasion: during that period nations could decide to use your manpower to increase theirs. But in multiplayer one can simply offer his services to another player by joining an alliance and asking for monetary compensation …



    Yes, that's what vanilla does, more or less. What I meant by "unique units" is actually providing an alternative to "Longbows" or "Men at Arms", exclusive to Scotland, particularly good at dealing morale losses and obsolete with technology advances. You're the Scot, you reach a particular set of requirements and trigger a decision which sets your infantry type to "Highlander", rather than "Men at Arms". The decision ceases to be relevant when "Condotta" becomes available to all, and thus you — as "Condotta" is a better alternative to "Highlander".

    Anyway, it's not essential at all — I've briefly considered the idea, but there's certainly more demanding aspects.
    I'd actually love troops differenciation between countries. It's simply lame that you can have Frederickian or Gustavian infantry as a Spanish or Indian or something like that.
    Last edited by silktrader; 07-02-2012 at 15:13.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Lama43 View Post
    I'd actually love troops differenciation between countries. It's simply lame that you can have Frederickian or Gustavian infantry as a Spanish or Indian or something like that.
    I think that requires rebalancing the troops for different tech groups and make the research lag of eastern nations less than what it is. Westernization would need to be made more difficult perhaps (don't knowhow tricky it's currently under the mod).

    Other than that working military formations were often copied quite rapidly in history within the same region, so it's not entirely unlikely. Unless you have specific regional tribes fighting for you (like scotish clans) it hardly matters. (you could tie certain special units to certain cored regions maybe, but even then it's more of a reward for holding these regions than anything truly historical)

    Other Idea 1: Random war events (early game)

    What would be neet is to have perhaps random events striking during wars that temporarily boost morale or dicipline by a small amount for certain nations for a short while. For instance the scots in the 17th century still proved quite a difficult foe on occasion due to unconventional formations. (which were then quickly adapted too)


    Other Idea 2: Nation wide strategies (late game)

    Or to institutionalise it make it a national decision that can be taken by nations. It would cost 20? 30? military tradition to boast dicipline by 10% or movement speed by X for 100 days. These decisions might be a late game thing (1650+ish) and represent the development of nation wide strategies, such as "Invasion plans" (movement speed bonus) or "Fresh New tactics" (dicipline bonus) or something defence oriented. For the navy this could maybe break the stalemate that tend to develop where a non naval focussed power cannot really hope to win. Basically choosing your moment right and catching their fleet when you naval morale is boosted you level the playing field a little and would prevent people from putting all their eggs (ships) in one basket (fleet).

    This could really change the strategic element in the game and might make for more interesting wars in which you have to have a backup plan and cannot just rely on superior number and technology, because you never know when your opponent decides to strike back with a vengeance.
    Last edited by Lord Austere; 07-02-2012 at 15:39.

  5. #205
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Curia Control and Papal Influence


    Like many aspects which can be contended among players, the Curia controller has been bestowed with rewarding effects — larger than in vanilla. Holding supremacy over the college of cardinals now provides:


    +1 prestige
    +1 diplomat
    +0.5 magistrates
    +1 tolerance to own
    These bonuses will be lost when Catholicism becomes a minority religion in Europe. This is to avoid situations where the only Catholic player left is able to milk his lonely religious position to great advantages.

    It is harder to gain magistrates in "Omnium Contra Omnes" than in vanilla; the one player exercising power over the Papacy will count on a tangible advantage in that domain. Diplomats are also scarcer and actually limit the extent of diplomatic initiatives. Unquestionably the most extensive advantage though is the one granting +1 tolerance, which decreases revolt risk, although exclusively in Catholic provinces.

    In the unmodded game there are few advantages to remaining Catholic once other Christian branches become available: the economic incentives of reformed religions invite most players to convert. It is now more enticing for a large colonial nation to retain the possibility to gain additional magistrates.

    Papal Influence:

    To ascertain power over the Curia one can manipulate two factors: a) number of Catholic provinces owned and b) Papal influence. There's no need to elaborate on the first (conversion, military conquest) but let's consider the second.

    Papal influence used to be gained almost exclusively by maintaining positive relations with the Papal States: anybody who didn't do so risked to be excommunicated with few chances to regain control in the short time. It's quite easy to send out a few inexpensive gifts to a minute Papal State. The roles of narrow-mindedness, missionaries and crusades have been emphasized at the detriment of diplomatic relations with the Papal States. The latter still provide +10% yearly influence when relations are maxed, but it is offset by a base -5% Papal influence for all Catholics; furthermore selected events lowering papal influence in certain circumstances were introduced.

    These are items affecting yearly Papal influence:


    Base Change . . . . . . . . . . -5%
    Enlightenment Movement . . -100%
    Excommunication . . . . . . . -100%
    Restraint of Appeals . . . . . . -15%
    Infamy (10) . . . . . . . . . . . -10%
    Credit Instruments . . . . . . . -8%
    Bank of St. George . . . . . . . -8%
    Declaration of Indulgence . . -5%
    Narrow-mindedness (max) . . +15%
    Papal Relations (max) . . . . . +10%
    Holy See Affinity . . . . . . . . +5%
    Catholic Theocracy . . . . . . +5%
    De Heretico Comburendo . . . +5%
    Among these, "Holy See Affinity" is new: it is a triggered modifier rewarding those countries sharing the same cultural group as the Pope. At the onset of the grand campaign, that's Italian nations — but it's subject to changes if one were able to annex the Papacy or support an Anti-Pope.

    "Credit Instruments" and "Bank of St. George" are financial decisions lowering interest rates, their main detraction is reduced influence on the Curia: money lending was abhorred by the Catholic dogma. These decisions shall be discussed in their own section.

    Please note that "Ecumenism" and "Humanist Tolerance" do not decrease Papal influence anymore, although they determine it indirectly. The "De Heretico Comburendo" decision is available to those who wish to pursue a pious career: it will decrease heretic tolerance by one but increase Papal influence by 5% yearly. Since there aren't Christian heretics in 1400, the decision will actually promote the rise of heretic rebels like the Lollards or the Hussites, via a possibly dangerous event. The decision can then be cleared by either converting or adopting "Ecumenism".

    There also are specific actions increasing and decreasing Papal influence, these are:


    Send Delegate . . . +5
    Crusade Sack . . . . +3
    Conversion . . . . . +9
    Crusade Ignored . . -30
    Frame Cardinal . . . -12
    Conversions, from any religion to Catholic, provide +9 Papal influence, that is three times as much as "delegates".

    Cardinals

    Papal influence increases chances to sponsor cardinals in the Curia. In the "Omnium Contra Omnes" cardinals attend to their function five years longer than in vanilla, on average. This change derives from the want to avoid yearly fluctuations in who becomes "Papal Controller" and which actions they enact or repeal. There remains an element of luck in acquiring cardinals, but effects last longer — so that they can be planned on.

    Each cardinal grants his sponsor these effects:


    0.2% prestige
    +5 stability investment
    -0.1 infamy
    The change, from vanilla, pertains to stability investments: it's five times higher in the mod and matches the mod's increased stability costs. Catholic countries will tend to have lower stability costs than their Protestant or Reformed counterparts, due to their lower base stability costs, due to cardinals and an early available "Suffragan Bishop Act". Orthodox countries though best Catholic ones, in this regard. Please note that, in the mod, acquiring one cardinal can equal to 800 ducats invested in stability, on average, over the cardinal's lifespan, that is fourteen years — an immense help to medium or small sized countries and a motivating factor in choosing "narrow-mindedness" over "innovativeness".

    The "Frame Cardinal" espionage mission allows one to decrease the target's Papal influence, and therefore his chances at gaining cardinals in the Curia. Its chief requirement is that the target features a cardinal among the Curia and the province features a temple.

    Fading Catholicism

    There may be times when most players convert to Protestantism or Reformation leaving one or two players to contend the "Curia Control". In those, arguably rare, cases — the last two Catholic country, or countries, will benefit from a watered down "Curia Control" advantage. The principle being that the fewer Catholic provinces exist in Europe, beyond the Papal Controller's frontiers, the more likely he is to lose the full benefit of the "Curia Control".

    In practice, a "Fading Catholicims" triggered modifier will fire when:


    one is the Papal Controller
    one has eight cardinals out of fifteen (that is more than half)
    there isn't another large Catholic country
    The effects tackle the "Curia Controller" most significant advantages and therefore remove:


    0.5 magistrates
    one tolerance point


    Last edited by silktrader; 10-02-2012 at 10:22.

  6. #206
    Elcyions apprentice pilis's Avatar
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    Just some fun stuff.

    Moskva and Ottomans will have negative magistrates growth for the first 25-50 years depending on luck.

    Cant see Ottoman can westernize with out either get far behind in tech our stop taking slider moves (7 year per stab with temples in all provs, 5 years after conversions)


    How are you supposed to get cultural traditions more than offer one idea slot? (Every cultural scion demands cultural tradition that you cant get with out cultural tradition)
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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilis View Post
    Just some fun stuff.

    Moskva and Ottomans will have negative magistrates growth for the first 25-50 years depending on luck.

    Cant see Ottoman can westernize with out either get far behind in tech our stop taking slider moves (7 year per stab with temples in all provs, 5 years after conversions)


    How are you supposed to get cultural traditions more than offer one idea slot? (Every cultural scion demands cultural tradition that you cant get with out cultural tradition)
    cultural tradition advisor, the artist?

    that being said, then having tried muscowy a few times before the game today, i am not expecting it to go well.

  8. #208
    Lt. General Lama43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scion View Post
    cultural tradition advisor, the artist?

    that being said, then having tried muscowy a few times before the game today, i am not expecting it to go well.
    I suggest you to be Novgorod. With this mod it will be even harder to keep in par with tech, considering the huge base stab cost and the slow slider moving.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lama43 View Post
    I suggest you to be Novgorod. With this mod it will be even harder to keep in par with tech, considering the huge base stab cost and the slow slider moving.
    not sure its easier, unless novgorod has been given all the missions of muscowy.
    cuz if you got no CBs, you are even more dead than muscowy

  10. #210
    Lt. General Lama43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scion View Post
    not sure its easier, unless novgorod has been given all the missions of muscowy.
    cuz if you got no CBs, you are even more dead than muscowy
    Guarantees, alliances and such. Although i actually never played as Novgorod yet.

  11. #211
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pilis View Post
    Moskva and Ottomans will have negative magistrates growth for the first 25-50 years depending on luck.
    He's referring to "integrating cores", which cost magistrates. You have the option to repeal the "integration" — the province will then turn to a core after fifty years, it's your call. Missions don't grant free cores anymore.

  12. #212
    Elcyions apprentice pilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lama43 View Post
    I suggest you to be Novgorod. With this mod it will be even harder to keep in par with tech, considering the huge base stab cost and the slow slider moving.
    Not even worth to stabing, better to just tech to be at pair in tech instead of be at 0 stab and 20 years after in tech
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  13. #213
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pilis View Post
    Not even worth to stabing, better to just tech to be at pair in tech instead of be at 0 stab and 20 years after in tech
    When you do that you're foregoing census taxes, increasing the need for minting and inflation — which decreases your tech rate in the long run. The decision depends on one's average tax base.

  14. #214
    Here something i noticed in the game today.

    France begin with 1 diplomat and around + 1.40 per year. I did not notice the stats of the ruler 3/3/3 at the very beginning, and i don't agree with his stats but nevermind.
    I think with so less diplomats, France should begin with alliances' agreement with all his vassals, or maybe, begin with a few more of them...
    I lose around 4 years just to make my agreements and was a real pain.

    Another thing is that i remember there was a decision to remove the negative effects of a plague with an official. But i didn't see it when we play today. Did you remove this possibility?

    Nothing else to say,
    so i would like to thank you for this great mod

  15. #215
    Elcyions apprentice pilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silktrader View Post
    When you do that you're foregoing census taxes, increasing the need for minting and inflation — which decreases your tech rate in the long run. The decision depends on one's average tax base.
    I get stab hits faster than stab level when i go over 0 so really not worth it
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  16. #216
    Vice Co-Regent Syber_sid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashalia View Post
    3/3/3 at the very beginning, and i don't agree with his stats but nevermind.
    Well Charles VI was a raving madman who believed he was made out of glass.

  17. #217
    France lost because Burgundy enter in the war by the side of England.
    He had fits of madness but he does not deserve these stats. In short, everyone's opinion

  18. #218
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashalia View Post
    France begin with 1 diplomat and around + 1.40 per year. I did not notice the stats of the ruler 3/3/3 at the very beginning, and i don't agree with his stats but nevermind.
    I think with so less diplomats, France should begin with alliances' agreement with all his vassals, or maybe, begin with a few more of them...
    I lose around 4 years just to make my agreements and was a real pain.
    We can talk about the French situation and specifically Charles' values: perhaps you could provide alternatives to achieve the mod's goals. The historical argument is that the monarch had gone mad in his last days. In game terms, I felt there was a need to pose an initial challenge for most majors so to even out initiatives compared to the ones available to smaller countries.

    France's monarch values were lowered: an early war against Burgundy wouldn't therefore result in an easy victory, France isn't able to diplomatically annex its vassals as easily as in vanilla, nor undertake many diplomatic initiatives (such as warning neighbouring states, guaranteeing others, entering royal marriages).

    England's legitimacy was lowered to 65 that discourages an early war against Scotland and France, requires some attention with advisors and royal marriages.

    Burgundy's initial missions, in Belgium, do not grant cores anymore, slowing their census collection.

    The Ottomans do not benefit from temples in their every province: the Orthodox ones are now void of temples, constables and marketplaces, justifying the use of magistrates for a country that otherwise has nothing to build. Their navy was reduced and the two Italian ones increased: hegemony in the Aegean is not hard at all, it's not the starting situation though.

    As for diplomats, the intention was that of making them a scarce commodity, like every other "agent" (magistrates, merchants, etc.). Their presence in the game would otherwise be inexplicable. I will try to describe changes later.

    Another thing is that i remember there was a decision to remove the negative effects of a plague with an official. But i didn't see it when we play today. Did you remove this possibility?
    I don't know whether the current dynamic is an improvement of the earlier one. The decision to "Contain Pestilence" was removed to avoid additional clicks: there's an event and two options the first suggests "quarantines", the second triggers a violent outbreak and includes 38% chances of plagues spreading to neighbouring provinces. The previous decision to use a magistrate is now part of the first event's option: you consume 0.7 magistrates per quarantine, over two years.

  19. #219
    I think Charles should have a little more than 3/3/3, but nevermind, i can agre with that.
    But something sure, if Burgundy/Brittany and England ally at the begining and England make war (with 65 legitimacy it's not a real problem), France has no chance with one diplomat! I've done well this game only because no one attack me at the very beginning....i was so weak xD

    I don't know whether the current dynamic is an improvement of the earlier one. The decision to "Contain Pestilence" was removed to avoid additional clicks: there's an event and two options — the first suggests "quarantines", the second triggers a violent outbreak and includes 38% chances of plagues spreading to neighbouring provinces. The previous decision to use a magistrate is now part of the first event's option: you consume 0.7 magistrates per quarantine, over two years.
    ok thanks

  20. #220
    Sometimes Hero Demi Moderator silktrader's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashalia View Post
    But something sure, if Burgundy/Brittany and England ally at the begining and England make war (with 65 legitimacy it's not a real problem), France has no chance with one diplomat! I've done well this game only because no one attack me at the very beginning....i was so weak xD
    France's rate of diplomatic annexations, at the start of the campaign, is hindered by Charles new diplomatic rating. The moment France is declared war on, they will gain +1 diplomat per year, adding to the 1.37 base. The alternative, to speed up alliances, agreements, diplomatic annexations is for France to acquire prestige or move towards aristocracy. While spheres of influence now "consume" diplomats, they still increase "diplomatic skill", thus easing diplomatic annexations.

    I don't know whether these arguments convince you, but if you have good alternatives concerning the starting French setup we should discuss them. The goal remains one: without diminishing France's ultimate potential, we shall slow down their initial expansion, in line with other countries in different areas.

    ***


    Addendum to "Papal Influence":
    • conversions now provide +9 Papal influence
    • there now is a penalty, for the Papal Controller, when there are few Catholic provinces and countries remaining in the game

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