(MOD) Vinland

[Nuril]

Thing is, you can see Greenland from Iceland on a nice day

Are you sure that isn't a Palinism?

and if people were colonizing that third province you added to Greenland, their ships would see Iceland, because the strait's not that all that wide. So I don't think you should need QftNW to discover Iceland if you're colonizing eastern Greenland.

They weren't. The settlements were on the western side, as the east is harsher. And again, you misunderstand me. They know Iceland is there (Which is why I use terms like "re-establish relations with" and talking about trade-lanes). They just don't know enough about it to justify having it explored in the game.

Well, historically Olaf Crowbone was concerned enough about Iceland to tell them to convert or else. But more to the point: this lets Iceland (and the Vatican) do diplomacy with Vinland, and it also means that if you decide to declare war on Iceland they can threaten your Greenland provinces, too.

But I don't want them to have diplomacy with eachother prior to Vinland arriving in Europe or Europe arriving in America. That is something they'd have to seek out.

And you were talking about the small dying colonies on Greenland, not Ísland (which is also much more Christianized and directly under the authority of the Kalmar Union). If Vinland invades Ísland than that is definitely a high concern for them (If they're taking an offensive stance towards Europe then that means triggering the Dreki Flotnar modifier by declaring war on Ísland (Since they'd "know" both countries required in the modifier prior to arriving in the Scandinavian peninsula), which would greatly raise Papal Influence and eventually trigger a Northern Crusade as backlash).

Ísland also already has the eastern province of Greenland explored, so they can trek their way to the western part just fine if Vinland's adjacent, it'll just take a bit longer. What with their "Seeing Greenland from their homes" and what-not. I presume they're not looking eastward to see it's western coast!

("In 1378, there was no longer a bishop at Garðar." and "In a letter dated 1448 from Rome, the Pope Nicholas V prescribe the bishops of Skálholt and Hólar (the two Icelandic episcopal sees) to ensure to provide the inhabitants of Greenland with priests and a bishop, which of the latter they hadn't had in the 30 years since the apparent coming of the heathens when most churches were destroyed and the people taken away as prisoners." was the attention given by Rome to real historical circumstances, btw, and I don't even have them as uniformly Christian.)

The attached zip has two files. The first is nine religion-related events I wrote, including conversion to Vinland Catholicism, conversion to Norse paganism, some which represent conflicts if government missionaries come to an area, and a few more.

Those are some really, really long MTTH modifiers.. @_@

Thanks for the files and I'll see how well they correspond to what I had in mind.

The conversion is based on your event 100001, but it doesn't effect Europe, because I imagine Vinland Catholicism as something arising because people are cut off from contact with Europe and so their religion gradually becomes different, not because they know what's happening in Europe and disapprove. I haven't tested any of it, so it may happen too often or not often enough.

Huh? I only see province events. Anyhow, I don't see it just as "being isolated from the Church" even though that certainly is a factor. Norse Catholicism is contrasted to Roman Catholicism in that sense. Their cultures and traditions are different, but they hold roughly the same ideas about Jesus and the associated theology (with heretical ideas to be expected). Their remoteness from the Pope only means that these "heresies" aren't stamped out in favour of uniform Roman Catholicism. So you're correct in that I don't intend it as a Protestant movement in "Rejection of the Pope", but they are definitely heretics from the Papal perspective with different traditions and viewpoints (excluded from controlling the Papacy despite generally being Catholics). I especially don't see the Vinlanders abandoning their religion and tradition like that and just agreeing that "Okay, you're right because you say you are". Small issues can become very big rifts in the Church, as people familiar with Byzantine history will know.

Though yes, the only ones in Europe with it is Ísland and Skrípieyjar (and Tyrone as a vassal of them), both for mostly cultural reasons. I really don't like the concept of forcing them to switch religions when Modernizing, though (which wouldn't even apply to either of those two where it makes more sense, since they're already Western). That should be left up to the player.

The second file is an event I wrote which causes the Inca AI to expand within the Andes over time, which I think would be useful for a mod focusing on the Americas.

Sure, I suppose I don't mind that. It's more of a "Northern Sphere" mod than an Americas one, though.

The more I think about it, the more I think Norse and Finnish religions should be placed into the "pagan" group. Both because they are (not that that means anything), and because for game purposes being in your own religion group shuts down your diplomacy. So putting Norse religion into the pagan group would give the player a choice: remain Norse, and have diplomacy with the pagan countries of the New World, or convert to Christianity, and have diplomacy with the countries of the Old World.

While I understand where you're coming from, and I definitely do want the Norse to be able to have some diplomacy with Skraelings (especially if Accommodationist), this isn't something I'll just go ahead and switch over, since I don't know the repercussions from doing so. I don't know what things are connected to the "pagan" group instead of "animist/shamanist" and I also have written several things with "nordic_beliefs" instead of adding OR segments to them. What exactly are the problems generated in diplomacy from being different religious groups apart from the Relationship decrease? Given that Ásatrú is a pantheon and not just nature-worship, I don't see that much of a difference in lumping in Hinduism with Pagan as well, which feels silly. I'd need a practical reason for doing so.


(EDIT: Sadly using "any_owned_province" or such did not work. Nothing showed up (and with any_owned alone nothing happened and when force-firing it in Console it CtDed). But when I replaced the "any_owned" with the numbers of the provinces in Iceland it worked. I'll see if inputting a Region, however unlikely, will help.)

(EDIT2: Alright, got all of Vinland_region to get screwed over at once! "Hurray" for success! >_> Still not entirely sure how to word the "must have troops/ships in Iceland" part, though, since it always seems to return true (probably from Icelandic units), so might have to be round-about and add in "OR" lines for all Jarl tags)

(EDIT3: Now that I come to think of it, I should probably add disastrous Attrition for enemies trying to besiege heavily plagues areas. So at least while your nation is in the gutter it's also a bad idea for others to attack you. *Shrugs* )

[BritNavFan]

Are you sure that isn't a Palinism?

Gunnbjørn Fjeld (aka Hvitserk, the part of Greenland directly across from Iceland) is pretty high. I've read that you can just barely see it from Iceland on a good day, and eyeballing the heights and distances that seems about right.

Incidentally, the person who said "you can see Russia from my house" was Tina Fey, not Palin. IIRC what Palin actually said was true, just irrelevant.

Those are some really, really long MTTH modifiers.. @_@

Hey, they're from your event!

Though yes, the only ones in Europe with it is Ísland and Skrípieyjar

Oh. The reason I mentioned Europe is that the existing event randomly converts European provinces to Vinlandic Catholicism. Looking at my game as of 1496, Breisgau, Oberpfalz, Szolnok, Nevers, and Girona are all Vinlandic Catholic.

The reason I gave a player who sent missionaries the "átrunadr_véurr" modifier is that I found it trivially easy to convert all of the Christian provinces to pagan in my game. I am envisioning the "átrunadr_véurr" modifier being a trigger for a later event that causes all of your Christian provinces to attempt to secede, forming their own country and or even trying to conquer you! (With equivalent events if you become Christian and try to convert your Norse provinces.)

It's more of a "Northern Sphere" mod than an Americas one, though.

For the last couple of decades of play, it seemed that every other mission I got as Vinland was "colonize the Caribbean" or "colonize South America". (Maybe some missions to colonise the provinces you have as part of fragmented Vinland in the 1500 scenario?)

What exactly are the problems generated in diplomacy from being different religious groups apart from the Relationship decrease?

The main one for republics is that before 1650 (this can be modded in defines.txt) it's almost impossible to make alliances across religion groups, (except for alliances with vassals which are allowed), and after 1650 it's still hard. Also, you can't form royal marriages or diploannex across religion groups, but those don't matter to republics.

It's perhaps worth noting that when Europeans actually did colonize North America the alliances weren't along religious lines but across them: the Christian French allied with "pagan" Hurons and the Christian English with "pagan" Iroquois, not Christians against "pagans".

The only decisions/events/missions/common files the "pagan" group is referenced as such are in \common\rebel_types.txt lines 764, 904, 1486; \common\religion.txt line 202; \decisions\Religion.txt lines 921, 951, 985; and \missions\Colonial.txt line 122.

I don't see that much of a difference in lumping in Hinduism with Pagan as well, which feels silly.

Why? Are you aware of the history of the word "pagan" in English? Maybe a hundred years ago, it was a perjorative term used for any religion other than Christianity and Judeism. "Islam" was certainly a "pagan" religion back then. However, since it was a perjorative term, it became very rude to use it to refer to the religions of (numerous) living people. So Islam and Hinduism and Shinto were no longer described as "pagan" by polite people, but the only thing they have in common with each other and don't have in common with the religion of the Aztecs is that the religion of the Aztecs isn't around any more and doesn't have anyone to object to being called "pagan". (And "pagan" isn't necessarily perjorative any more.) So the difference between EU3's "pagan" and "Eastern" religions, in particular, is very much an ex post facto one.

In EU3 "these nations are in different religious groups" means that, if it's before 1650, they'll almost certainly be in a state of religious cold (or hot) war. There's no reason to think that the Hindus would have been at religious war with animists if they had been in contact. (Arguably, they were, and India's "tribals" as well as such places as Manipur were, arguably, "animist", and the Hindus certainly weren't at holy war or incapable of allying with them.)

Sadly using "any_owned_province" or such did not work. Nothing showed up (and with any_owned

According to the documentation, "any_owned_province" must be used in triggers and "any_owned" in effects. (I'm not entirely sure what that means, and the documentation is sometimes wrong.)

[Nuril]

Hey, they're from your event!

Ah, that's one of the few remnants from Urcules. It does have quite the list, yeah. <_<

Oh. The reason I mentioned Europe is that the existing event randomly converts European provinces to Vinlandic Catholicism. Looking at my game as of 1496, Breisgau, Oberpfalz, Szolnok, Nevers, and Girona are all Vinlandic Catholic.

That's unintended, yeah, as it's cultural. The limit should be to those with neighbouring Norse Catholic provinces (since hey, heresies can spread) or if they're Vinlandic culture, since then the cultural differences are there. I'm not sure just arbitrarily excluding Europe is the way to go, but it'll be limited to the Norse sphere.

The reason I gave a player who sent missionaries the "átrunadr_véurr" modifier is that I found it trivially easy to convert all of the Christian provinces to pagan in my game. I am envisioning the "átrunadr_véurr" modifier being a trigger for a later event that causes all of your Christian provinces to attempt to secede, forming their own country and or even trying to conquer you! (With equivalent events if you become Christian and try to convert your Norse provinces.)

Well, it'd definitely be a major point of conflict between Jarls of Christian and Pagan lands so I suppose such things could possibly happen in the Christian/Pagan Jarldoms you're trying to do it in. Though keep in mind it shouldn't punish Vinland too harshly just for being Vinland when compared to how others deal with religion. It'd be more an issue with the fractured governmental nature of the Jarls and their different interests (and direct intrusion on their territory and faith) than something a devoted king with unilateral control, however unpopular and tyrannical, wouldn't be able to do elsewhere.

For the last couple of decades of play, it seemed that every other mission I got as Vinland was "colonize the Caribbean" or "colonize South America". (Maybe some missions to colonise the provinces you have as part of fragmented Vinland in the 1500 scenario?)

Oh. That has nothing to do with my mod, since those are vanilla missions. I guess since you have a presence in America they think you must obviously be interested in a vast colonial empire. *Rolls eyes*

But yeah, I just haven't gotten very far in that department of content (like how the conflict with Skraelings doesn't have followups after the war or that "Accommodationist" doesn't do much of anything right now). There should be gradual colonization of the Vinland_Region coast.

The main one for republics is that before 1650 (this can be modded in defines.txt) it's almost impossible to make alliances across religion groups, (except for alliances with vassals which are allowed), and after 1650 it's still hard. Also, you can't form royal marriages or diploannex across religion groups, but those don't matter to republics.

Ah. What I might do in order to remedy this would be to give the northern tribes an alternative religion like "Midewiwin" or something and have that in the Nordic group. That way they can't marry African tribes etc. and keep them focused on the Skraelings-Norse. I don't know how wide-spread Midewiwin was for the southern Northern tribes, though, so I'll have to read up on that (or possible other religions for them up there). Would also be adding content for the specific tribes.

The only decisions/events/missions/common files the "pagan" group is referenced as such are

I'll give 'em a look.

Why? ... since it was a perjorative term, it became very rude to use it to refer to the religions of (numerous) living people. So Islam and Hinduism and Shinto were no longer described as "pagan" by polite people

Exactly. It's just a bias towards big religions with more power. How large the group of followers are hardly matters (and it'd be silly to say animist/shamanists are small groups. Especially with how those faiths have interbred with others like Christianity as well). It makes just as much sense to put Hinduism in that group. I'm not opposed to the idea because of that, though, that was just on you thinking it's more "appropriate".


(Update-on-Midewiwin Edit: Thanks to Ubik, of Magna Mundi, for letting me use their Totem icon for the religion. )

Edit: Doesn't seem like your "Inca expansion" event works, since it can't secede from nothing. Once I get around to fixing up Midewiwin perhaps I'll have Intiism have a very minor colonist bonus instead or give 'em a Triggered modifier for as long as the region is uninhabited.

[RedRooster81]

I was wondering why Valencia turned Nordic Catholic! I can say that another eccentricity is that the Faroes defected to Vinland from their original owner, although you probably can't help that. I have done pretty well using the standard Danish missions to expand into northern Germany and crushing the Teutonic Order (and inheriting the whole Kalmar Union + Scotland), but I look forward to expanding westward. I have tried getting Skrípieyjar into my sphere. England has taken Ireland from her, leaving her with only the smaller islands, but it can't happen because I am still Roman Catholic and they are Norse Catholic. So I may turn Norse Catholic but I'll be the only Norse Catholic country. I am wondering two things: (1) have you thought of any events for Scotland, England, and maybe parts of continental Europe to turn Norse? I am converting Scotland bit by bit with settlement policy, but it'll be slow going. But Fife touches all of the Scottish-culture provinces, so it won't be too hard over the long term to do it with a single national focus; and (2) are you going to expand the faction system to include the other Norse countries? I will do this for my own files, but it would be interesting to see it done for Denmark as well.

[Nuril]

GAH! Please help, I'm driving myself crazy with this.. I'm trying to make it so that an event can only trigger if Vinland has troops in the provinces, but no matter how I word it it either always returns as True (probably detecting Iceland's normal troops instead of specifically searching for VIN) or always returns as False (never detecting either in the provinces).

Things I've tried:

		or = { 
			370 = { VIN = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			371 = { VIN = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			1885 = { VIN = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			1886 = { VIN = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
		}

		or = { 
			VIN = { 370 = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			VIN = { 371 = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			VIN = { 1885 = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
			VIN = { 1886 = { units_in_province = 1 } } 
		}

		or = { 
			370 =  { units_in_province = VIN } } 
			371 = { units_in_province = VIN } } 
			1885 = { units_in_province = VIN } } 
			1886 = { units_in_province = VIN } } 
		}

################################################## #####
(EDIT)
I've run another hands-off game up to 1430 now and, despite having the missions+colonists+cash, Vinland isn't doing any colonizing what-so-ever even at 0.8 Tech. WTH?
(Edit 2)
No, wait, nevermind. It looks like they've sent ONE colonist to Helluland by now.. Any way to make them actually take advantage of colonizing..? They even have Colonial Ventures as their first idea..
################################################## #####

I can say that another eccentricity is that the Faroes defected to Vinland from their original owner, although you probably can't help that.

Yeah, the way to solve that would be by making it not be there in the first place. I think Faereyjar doing it isn't that bad, since they're remote. By the 1500 start they'll have them discovered, too.

but it can't happen because I am still Roman Catholic and they are Norse Catholic. So I may turn Norse Catholic but I'll be the only Norse Catholic country.

Show some Scandinavian spirit! To hell with what the weakling Europeans think, they'll have the right ideas about Catholicism once you're letting them admire how shiny your blade is!

I am wondering two things: (1) have you thought of any events for Scotland, England, and maybe parts of continental Europe to turn Norse? I am converting Scotland bit by bit with settlement policy, but it'll be slow going. But Fife touches all of the Scottish-culture provinces, so it won't be too hard over the long term to do it with a single national focus;

Well, restoring the Danelaw gives changes the culture of York/Jórvík. I'd want to have extra content for other northern nations over all, but since you're asking specifically about gaining cheap Culture-conversions, then not really. That's what Settlement Policy is for! Becoming a majority-population doesn't happen over night.....except in very sparesly populated islands exposed to war and recently conquered by a nation keenly looking to establish it's power eastward. *Coughs*

and (2) are you going to expand the faction system to include the other Norse countries? I will do this for my own files, but it would be interesting to see it done for Denmark as well.

"The other Norse countries"? As you're playing Denmark, do you mean the other Nordic/Scandinavian countries? If so, then maybe, but certainly not with Hirdmen/Hofgodar/Althing, since they're not really an appropriate set for those outside the more old-timey Norse. If you mean Iceland then probably not, since they're under the thumb of Norwegian autocracy.

[BritNavFan]

I'm trying to make it so that an event can only trigger if Vinland has troops in the provinces, but no matter how I word it it either always returns as True (probably detecting Iceland's normal troops instead of specifically searching for VIN) or always returns as False (never detecting either in the provinces).

Well. Learn something new every day. Here's the code you want:

		or = { 
			370 = { units_in_province = this } 
			371 = { units_in_province = this } 
			1885 = { units_in_province = this } 
			1886 = { units_in_province = this } 
		}

or more concisely

		eastern_siberia = {
			has_discovered =  this
			units_in_province = this
		}

See "china_discovers_india" in Chinese Missions or "Russia discovers eastern Siberia" in Russian Missions for examples. Now this syntax is only used in missions, so it may not work in events, but it's worth a try.

No, wait, nevermind. It looks like they've sent ONE colonist to Helluland by now.. Any way to make them actually take advantage of colonizing..? They even have Colonial Ventures as their first idea..

When I played as them I picked National Bank for the first Idea. Cash to make use of the large number of colonists and magistrates I got by default was my problem.

Though keep in mind it shouldn't punish Vinland too harshly just for being Vinland when compared to how others deal with religion.

Thing is, once I got my new infantry unit at land tech 6 fighting the natives was never a challenge again. If you're in the Old World, other countries have similar technology to you, and so each time you win a war you get larger and become competitive with larger nations, but that doesn't apply to the lone European tech country in the New World, so there needs to be some other thing keeping it interesting.

You might want to make the North American natives' starting units nastier, as man for man they were at least as good as the Europeans throughout this period. They just didn't have the numbers.

[Nuril]

Well. Learn something new every day. Here's the code you want:

Wait.. so "VIN" doesn't work, but a piece of code that DIRECTLY translates into "VIN" for all intents and purposes DOES? Confound this coding.. @_@

When I played as them I picked National Bank for the first Idea. Cash to make use of the large number of colonists and magistrates I got by default was my problem.

I mean that the computer even picked that national idea but didn't send a single colonists until 30 years in and they had the missions the entire time. I definitely understand wanting to rake in some more cash. More colonists when you're not using any, not so much.

Thing is, once I got my new infantry unit at land tech 6 fighting the natives was never a challenge again. If you're in the Old World, other countries have similar technology to you, and so each time you win a war you get larger and become competitive with larger nations, but that doesn't apply to the lone European tech country in the New World, so there needs to be some other thing keeping it interesting.

You might want to make the North American natives' starting units nastier, as man for man they were at least as good as the Europeans throughout this period. They just didn't have the numbers.

Oh rats. Yeah, I'll definitely have to improve on the Skraeling-side's development. They shouldn't be as weak as in vanilla considering their exposure to more technologically advanced cultures, but just giving them more tech speed obviously doesn't make up for the lack of Unit-types filling those tech's ranks. I'll have to look into it....and completely make up some hypothetical themes for them.

Is that really the case with Europeans, though? I just can't see people without armour and more primitive weaponry being "as good man-for-man". Isn't that situation also after them being devastated by diseases? Their biggest advantage versus Vinland is sort-of.. numbers.. <_<


EDIT:

Anyway, while the "Units_in_province" appears to be displaying correctly the event just doesn't fire fast enough. It should be immediately and I haven't even seen it fire without forcing it through the Console yet. What would be recommended for it? I tried with "days = 1" MTTH and "is_triggered_only = yes", eventhough those seem quite deceptive since they neither fire when triggers are met nor does it fire in a day (I presume it means it checks if it's Trigger-able daily instead of monthly, but if so I don't see what the "1" has to do with anything). Do note that the Scientific_Revolution idea was just me picking an unattainable NI so it'd always reduce the MTTH.

country_event = {

	id = 24004
	
	trigger = {
		or = {
			tag = VIN
			tag = KEB
			tag = NEF
			tag = MRK
			tag = FRM
			tag = HIL
			tag = FEL
			tag = GES
			tag = HOP
			tag = VIL
			tag = VEG
			tag = FJO
			tag = KRR
			tag = ELL
		}
		THIS = { NOT = { any_owned_province = { has_province_modifier = black_death } } }
		ICE = { any_owned_province = { has_province_modifier = black_death } }
		year = 1402
		NOT = { year = 1515 }
		or = { 
			370 = { units_in_province = THIS } 
			371 = { units_in_province = THIS } 
			1885 = { units_in_province = THIS } 
			1886 = { units_in_province = THIS } 
		}
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months	= 1

		modifier = {
			factor = 0.1
			NOT = { idea = scientific_revolution }
		}

		modifier = {
			factor = 0.8
			mercantilism_freetrade = 3
		}

		modifier = {
			factor = 0.5
			mercantilism_freetrade = 5
		}

		modifier = {
			factor = 2.0
			luck = yes
		}
	}

	title = "EVTNAME24004"
	desc = "EVTDESC24004"

	option = {
		name = "EVTOPTA24004"			# Bring out your dead

		vinland_region = {
			add_province_modifier = {
				name = "black_death"
				duration = 2555
			}
		}
		stability = -3
		set_global_flag = plague_reaches_america
	}
}

[BritNavFan]

I mean that the computer even picked that national idea but didn't send a single colonists until 30 years in and they had the missions the entire time.

In HTTT the AI understood the "colonize" missions as being conquest missions. I don't know whether that's been fixed for DW.

Is that really the case with Europeans, though? I just can't see people without armour and more primitive weaponry being "as good man-for-man". Isn't that situation also after them being devastated by diseases? Their biggest advantage versus Vinland is sort-of.. numbers.. <_<

Historically they fought well enough against the Norse settlers. But what I should have said was that the North American natives were, man for man, better skirmishers than the western Europeans ever became in this period. Western European armies were set up for fighting in western Europe, where you had dense populations and almost all the land was farmland or towns, so you had to stand and fight. So they stood and fought in concentrated masses. But if you're in the North American wilderness that doesn't work so well. The Natives were better able to live off the land, and their tactics were all about fighting in those conditions, while the European tactics just made big concentrations of men that even a musket could hit and which needed to maintain supply lines that were very vulnerable to raids.

On the other hand, the Natives couldn't retake land that had been settled by Europeans: their tactics weren't about fighting concentrated armies defending their home turf, and they didn't have the numbers to control the farms and towns if they'd taken them, anyway. And a unit of North American natives transplanted to Europe would have been nearly useless. But in the strategic situation in North America no side ever had enough skirmishers.

Which is why borders between European settlers and North American natives tended to remain stable for decades. Unfortunately, I don't know any way to model this in EU3. (Except to leave all the native provinces as colonizable provinces, but that's kind of boring, and AFAIK the NAT tag never advances in technology, so eventually it becomes hopelessly obsolete.)

Now the Central American natives, such as the Aztecs, and the Andean natives, such as the Incas and the Mupache, were a different story: they did fight as armies for control of land, they did have cities and farms that they could not afford to concede, and so they had a hard time of it (except for the Mupache), as their gear was horribly inadequate compared to the Spanish gear, and their tactics tended to be naive by Eurasian standards. (Again, except for the Mupache, who figured out how to use pikes against cavalry by the time the Spanish got to them.)


Is the event not firing fast enough, or is it not firing at all? Historically, the Spanish were present in Tenochtitlan for months before the first plague hit the natives. (Not that I have any idea what to do about it if it doesn't fire at all. Does the trigger work if you put it in a decision?)


It turns out that improving the colonize mission is very easy. Copy \missions\colonial.txt to the mod and edit the last mission in the file. It's already customized for the Portuguese, Spanish, English and French, so it's trivial to customize it for culture = vinlandicculture too. For example:

		modifier = {
			factor = 0
			culture = vinlandicculture
			OR = {
				region = central_american_region
				region = the_carribean
				continent = south_america
				continent = africa
			}
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 2
			culture = vinlandicculture
			region = north_american_region
		}
		modifier = {
			factor = 3
			culture = vinlandicculture
			region = vinland_region
		}

[anubisfike]

"is_triggered_only = yes"

I'm pretty sure this makes it only fire when triggered by another event or action, like moving sliders.

[Nuril]

But what I should have said was that the North American natives were, man for man, better skirmishers than the western Europeans ever became in this period. Western European armies were set up for fighting in western Europe, where you had dense populations and almost all the land was farmland or towns, so you had to stand and fight. So they stood and fought in concentrated masses. But if you're in the North American wilderness that doesn't work so well.

Ah, so that's what you meant. That I mostly agree with, then.. although we are talking about Vikings, the European masters of Hit-and-Run and maneuvering (and they have horses as an early advantage with mobility, since they aren't native to the Americas).

And yeah, they'd be at a disadvantage out in the wilderness if on the offensive, though most would be linked to them methodically expanding their settlements. I don't see them, outside of Player-Megalomania, having much interest in "conquering" lands that neither gain them material wealth or land they actually have the means to settle at the time.

The Natives were better able to live off the land, and their tactics were all about fighting in those conditions, while the European tactics just made big concentrations of men that even a musket could hit and which needed to maintain supply lines that were very vulnerable to raids.

Hm-hm. I presume attrition modifiers work on a national level, since I see it in Prussian Reforms. Would be nice to have a minor version of Improved Foraging available to them early on.

On the other hand, the Natives couldn't retake land that had been settled by Europeans: their tactics weren't about fighting concentrated armies defending their home turf, and they didn't have the numbers to control the farms and towns if they'd taken them, anyway. And a unit of North American natives transplanted to Europe would have been nearly useless. But in the strategic situation in North America no side ever had enough skirmishers.

Indeed. That's why the Villrland War hopefully triggers before it's a proper city, since their best bet is probably to burn the settlement (or seize it whilst considered mostly Native). Though with the Wabanaki, as a confederacy, I think would have more resources to go on the offensive than a solitary tribe would, even if their fighting style isn't appropriate for it.

Which is why borders between European settlers and North American natives tended to remain stable for decades. Unfortunately, I don't know any way to model this in EU3. (Except to leave all the native provinces as colonizable provinces, but that's kind of boring)

Yeah. Maybe the AI will be more keen to remain with the Althing than a human player bent on Conquest would be, so maybe they'll keep peaceful and stick to building settlements along the coast (if they'd fucking Colonize something) and defending their towns in case Skraelings attack to drive them back to older settlements.

Now the Central American natives, such as the Aztecs, and the Andean natives, such as the Incas and the Mupache, were a different story: they did fight as armies for control of land, they did have cities and farms that they could not afford to concede, and so they had a hard time of it (except for the Mupache), as their gear was horribly inadequate compared to the Spanish gear, and their tactics tended to be naive by Eurasian standards. (Again, except for the Mupache, who figured out how to use pikes against cavalry by the time the Spanish got to them.)

When setting things up for adding Midewiwin I did get a taste for adding a more complex Mesoamerica/Inca (since I at least want to add Teotl and Intiism, so a few nations wouldn't be so out of order either), though focus will remain on the north. I think I'll go with Intiism having a very minor colonist bonus, though, and see how big it needs to be for them to reach an appropriate size.

Might also split the New_World techgroup in two for north and south of Norse influence. So Africa and southern Americas will be reduced somewhat (though not as bad as in vanilla). The main thing for this would be for changing the unit-types around, so this is a good topic for that. I presume you're interested in Inca/Mesoamerican history?

Is the event not firing fast enough, or is it not firing at all? Historically, the Spanish were present in Tenochtitlan for months before the first plague hit the natives. (Not that I have any idea what to do about it if it doesn't fire at all. Does the trigger work if you put it in a decision?)

It isn't firing at all (or at least within the years I waited for something that's supposed to take at most one month..). And even if I seperate it into two so that the plague props up at some interval later, I do have to have this first step be instantaneous so it isn't just "Oh, gotta exit the province again. *Sails off*".

It turns out that improving the colonize mission is very easy. Copy \missions\colonial.txt to the mod and edit the last mission in the file. It's already customized for the Portuguese, Spanish, English and French, so it's trivial to customize it for culture = vinlandicculture too. For example:

Done!

I'm pretty sure this makes it only fire when triggered by another event or action, like moving sliders.

Yeah, that's what I figured judging from the Revolution events use of it. Does it trigger instantly after the other event or would it trigger immediately after the conditions are filled, though? If it's the latter, then it's perfect, but it it's the earlier it's useless.

[RedRooster81]

A point that I would make is that so far as Vinland is concerned (my veterans raised in Hamburg are a different breed) is that after living for some four centuries in isolation from Europe and close to native confederacies, then they should have developed battle tactics fit for fighting their enemies and on the terrain. The Villrland War seems to have been over a division of "our" land from "their" land (from both parties' perspectives), but I would assume some level of interaction and some cultural and indeed biological mixing after four centuries, without additional settlers from Iceland or Norway and population growth dependent on natural increase.

[Nuril]

A point that I would make is that so far as Vinland is concerned (my veterans raised in Hamburg are a different breed) is that after living for some four centuries in isolation from Europe and close to native confederacies, then they should have developed battle tactics fit for fighting their enemies and on the terrain. The Villrland War seems to have been over a division of "our" land from "their" land (from both parties' perspectives), but I would assume some level of interaction and some cultural and indeed biological mixing after four centuries, without additional settlers from Iceland or Norway and population growth dependent on natural increase.

Oh no, don't consider this as some homogeneous "White man" nation. There's plenty of mixed Norse-Skraeling descendants that are not 2nd class citizens (neither are Skraelings who are part of Jarldoms, instead of tribes). The difference in attitudes in the Villrland war, besides Vinlandic expansion, is also that the Wabanaki (or other larger Skraeling states) are mostly "We are several separate tribes working for mutual goals, such as protection in war-time and trade, but we are still separate peoples", but Vinland has a notion of a "State" as an outer layer over such concerns. While both Skraelings, Norse and mixes thereof can settle in the colonies being established, they have a national identity rather than a Tribal one (most Tribals within the state also know the Norse language (with Vinlandic dialect, naturally) by now, despite not being part of Jarldoms). That isn't to say that they're some great free society over all just because they have a pragmatic approach to "Barbarians" and generally uninterested in policing private lives, since slavery is still alive and well (although not exactly banned in the rest of Europe for many hundreds of years either. Although less common in northern feudal Europe as they didn't have good access to slave markets), and Skraeling slaves to Norse owners is the more common variety (Wildland Skraelings, to be specific. Once Fremr Villrland is colonized it'll get Slaves as it's tradegood and a marketplace. Not a nice province to be a non-Vinlandicized Skraeling).

On the battle-tactics note, though, there's still the big difference on what the two sides fight for (as mentioned by BritNavFan). The Vinlanders fight to protect and expand settlements (or, if in offenses, for profit), while the Skraelings fight between tribes or to halt and expel settlements. As I hope I reflect by where I place Cities in the provinces, most larger towns for Vinland are along the coast, as the sea is still vital for them. Shipping in Jarl-levies to fight off tribes stirring up trouble in smaller settlements, though obviously not undefended until the Levy arrives (since plenty of frontier settlers are armed just fine on a personal level), or organizing armies to push into uncolonized territory.

One more unique part of the "Kebekrúm" Jarldom, deriving it's name from the same Algonquin word as Quebec ("kébec" meaning "where the river narrows"), is that it does have more integrated Skraelings than many Jarldoms, so far that I let them start 1500 with a Royal Marriage with the Wabanaki. Naturally I also gave it a Maple-leaf flag if some Canadians want to have some weird ahistorical fantasy (*INCEPTION DUNH*).

[BritNavFan]

I think I'll go with Intiism having a very minor colonist bonus, though, and see how big it needs to be for them to reach an appropriate size.

They won't colonize unless you give them a tech multiplier of 0.8, remember. But even if you do, it won't be an ideal result, because historically they were a multiethnic empire, but if they expand by colonizing they'll be ethnically homogenous. That's why I wrote that fancy event.

That's why the Villrland War hopefully triggers before it's a proper city

I'm not sure if the Villrland War will trigger at all with that "army_size_percentage = 0.75" restriction. It didn't trigger for me, and when I loaded the game as Wabanaki they had a tiny army. War exhaustion might be a better restriction.

Maybe the AI will be more keen to remain with the Althing than a human player bent on Conquest would be...

Well, remember there's not a lot to do in this game besides politics and conquering. And they have events to attack you, and won't stop fighting until you've occupied a few of their provinces...

A couple of other notes:
If you're going to look at more native nations, you may want to check out Guillaume's Age of Discovery mod.

If you're going to play with Africa, I wrote a mod elaborating on Africa's cultures (making them more culturally diverse than France...), adding cavalry, adding a tribal_monarchy government type (so they could have succession crises without having to raid their neighbours), etc.

[Nuril]

They won't colonize unless you give them a tech multiplier of 0.8, remember.

..Forgot that again. ;_; What an annoying limiter to have globally..

But even if you do, it won't be an ideal result, because historically they were a multiethnic empire, but if they expand by colonizing they'll be ethnically homogenous. That's why I wrote that fancy event.

..But has it ever worked for you? Trying to secede from unowned territory = Nothing happens for me. Maybe I tested it wrong, so I'll give it another try.

I'm not sure if the Villrland War will trigger at all with that "army_size_percentage = 0.75" restriction. It didn't trigger for me, and when I loaded the game as Wabanaki they had a tiny army. War exhaustion might be a better restriction.

Good point (although I have it at 0.60 atm), that would probably be better. They'll be pumping out troops faster with the Fifth Column boost, anyway.

If you're going to play with Africa, I wrote a mod elaborating on Africa's cultures (making them more culturally diverse than France...), adding cavalry, adding a tribal_monarchy government type (so they could have succession crises without having to raid their neighbours), etc.

Let's not have too many continents, yeah?

[BritNavFan]

..But has it ever worked for you? Trying to secede from unowned territory = Nothing happens for me. Maybe I tested it wrong, so I'll give it another try.

Look at the Inca event I sent you. It works. (There was a bug that was fixed part way through the HTTT patching process, so it wouldn't work with unpatched HTTT.)

[Nuril]

Look at the Inca event I sent you. It works. (There was a bug that was fixed part way through the HTTT patching process, so it wouldn't work with unpatched HTTT.)

My bad. It does work when testing correctly. Neat.

This, however, is really friggin' typical. I just got my first ever 9/9/9 ruler......during a test game with no intention of playing it seriously and having already used "cheats" for test purposes. ;_;


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Excuse my "brevity" in this message. I had written out a bunch of stuff I was planning and discussed some things, but the damn forum swallowed the whole post in the "Token has expired" nonsense. I don't even know what the purpose of that is at all, except pissing off forumites.

I've been tinkering with a Triggered Modifier giving AI-controlled Byzantium a fairly strong position (only the AI, you don't get it). The reason for this is that it seems to me, due to Paradox change to how the AI handle army finances, they are apparently disbanding the Varangian troops they receive from the event because of the sudden rise in maintenance.. But they're the stronger troops.. So instead the trade-off is that they get a good general and a statistical increase, humans get a good general along with his army and fleet he arrived on. Although I explained this with more levity and wit (I promise!) in the original post my intention is for the Ottomans to lose to Byzantium in a majority of playthroughs.

What can I say, I'm a Swede and it's not my fault that we went east instead of west! Anyhow, it is my intent that Miklagard be the prominent one so as to build off of that assumption. Thus, if you are a player of the Ottomans, this might not be the mod for you during your 1399-playthroughs unless you like a sudden artificial challenge.

And are there any issues with the official 5.1 patch? It seemed the change-notes were next to empty, so I'm not too worried.

Uploading version 1.121 now. Haven't gone through your religious events properly yet, BritNavFan, so that'll possibly be for 1.122 along with the new Units (while I divided the Tech/Unit groups for North & Meso+SouthAmerica they don't have new units to go with it yet) and such.

[Nuril]

Updated to v1.121

- Added specific rulers, diplomacy and a Restoration-of-Vinland decision for the Independent Jarls. It doesn't have enough content for my liking, but should be playable. Also haven't done any testing on it to see how it turns out.

- For the 1500 start-date I changed things in the eastern Mediterranean. Byzantium now have holdings I think are fair for a continued "Byzantine-Varangian" line. The Ottomans (having been stopped and retreated from Europe) kept a firm hold on most of Anatolia, defending it while conquering a swath of Middle-Eastern territory a bit earlier on. Some other minor stuff.

- The Black Death! While obviously quite a harsh thing for poor little Ísland, they did almost get destroyed by outbreaks of the pandemic when they began in 1402–04 and again swept through the population in 1494–95. Between these dates, rather than have small bursts of annihilation, I've added longer-lasting negative modifiers. Now why would you care so much about Ísland since most won't be playing it, you ask? Well, let's just say that it is an important link for Vinland->Europe and that the New World doesn't exactly have a built up immunity to the Black Death.. You do the math! Don't despair, though, since you have to be in the country during an outbreak. If you're lucky you'll see there's something wrong before you have troops standing on their soil!

- Added a new province that is ruled by a Skraeling chief subject of Vinland.

- Reworked the native cultures of the region a bit (note that I used "Wabanaki" to cover the various Western & Eastern Abenaki tribes, Wolastoqiyik and Pestomuhkati. I know that it is just their confederation.).

- Split New_World techgroup into New_World and Skraeling and split their Units across Skraeling/MesoAmerican+Inca lines. Haven't added new ones to let Wabanaki et al. stay somewhat in league with Vinland, though, but I will.

- New religions: Midewiwin, Teotl & Intiism. For Skraelings, Mesoamericans and Andeans respectively.

- New nations & cultures: Mesoamerican and Andean based off of Magna Mundi's (minus various Andean cultures right now). A special thanks to Ubik & Co!

- Some new events and missions.

- Many major fixes/changes.


DOWNLOAD:

Vinland DW v1.121 Strike that. Version 1.122 now.

[Micro]

This seems to be a really cool mod...

However, I looked through the history files and found out that a lot of file names contain non-english characters. If you want the mod to be more compatible with different windows environments and the mac version, file names should not contain non-english characters. Many mod developers forget that.

I will be willingly to do the work converting the file names removing non-english characters from file names, if you like.

[Nuril]

This seems to be a really cool mod...

However, I looked through the history files and found out that a lot of file names contain non-english characters. If you want the mod to be more compatible with different windows environments and the mac version, file names should not contain non-english characters. Many mod developers forget that.

I will be willingly to do the work converting the file names removing non-english characters from file names, if you like.

Do you mean just files like the ones in "/history/provinces/" not being loaded correctly or do you mean in the actual game? If it's the latter I'm not going to change it, since that'd be cheapening the names while playing, but if it's just the files then I don't see a big problem changing them if there are issues.

Do note though, that since it's mostly Old Norse, I don't use characters like å ä ö / Å Ä Ö that are on Swedish keyboards, it's mostly just using accents on letters (like in french, for instance). So you can still write the "á / í / ó "s, just press ´ and then the letter. I don't think it'd have problems reading that (not to mention what would eventually become the letter å was originally written aa, then shortened to be two a:s on top of eachother, then it ended up just being marked with a circle. Many such issues aren't relevant when using old spellings.).

[Micro]

Like I wrote... just the file names... in the history folders (/history/provinces/ and /history/countries/).
The file names should not contain non-english characters including accents...