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Thread: (MOD) Vinland

  1. #1
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    (MOD) Vinland



    Greetings and salutations! Couldn't help but notice we're currently woefully lacking of everybody's favourite nonsensical alternative-history mod. Naturally I can not let such an injustice stand and promptly got this old gal working with the current game after messing about with it for my own ends many moons ago.

    A bit of History, if you care.

    The premise of this mod is rather obvious if you're familiar with Vinland, but if you're not: The first Europeans to set foot in the Americas were, in fact, Viking explorers. The story begins with Leifr Eiríksson's father Eiríkr who was forced to leave Norway as a child due to his parents' committing manslaughter and moving to the new colony founded in Iceland. Later in life, 982 CE, Eiríkr would face a three year exile from Iceland due to a feud and left for Greenland, where he founded the first permanent European colony (which survived up into the 15th Century). He was the one to deceptively name it "Greenland" despite it being quite harsh, with the intent of attracting settlers, though it should be noted it was more hospitable back then than it is currently. The population of Greenland boomed, rising to over 5000 inhabitants come to escape the overpopulation in Iceland. This sudden increase had consequences, however, as an epidemic circa 1002 ended up taking Eiríkr's life.

    Meanwhile Bjarni Herjólfsson, a merchant-captain from Norway, was about to have a fateful encounter. His parents lived in Iceland and he visited them every year, so this particular year was no exception.. but when he arrived it turned out that they had gone with Eiríkr to Greenland, and so he decided to follow them. But during the summer of either 985 or 986 he, sailing with neither map nor compass, was blown off course by a storm. Eventually he sighted land, but that forested mountainous land was not Greenland and so, despite the pleas of his crewmen, he refused to land there and look around. While none of the crew had ever been to Greenland before and they were in strange waters they did eventually manage to regain their course. Once he had arrived in Greenland Bjarni decided to settle there with his parents. Although he reported that he had seen land further west no one took an interest.. that is, until his father died and he returned to Norway and he met Leifr, son of Eiríkr, born 970.

    Leifr bought Bjarni's ship from him and gathered himself a crew to set out for this new land, in the hopes the stories told were true and that there was land beyond Greenland. He asked his father to lead the expedition, but after his horse stumbles on the way to the ship and hurting his foot he declines, considering it an ill-omen, stating that "It is not ordained that I should discover more countries than that which we now inhabit".

    Leifr set sail and arrived in new world, traveling southward and seeing the land become more and more inviting. Many days pass sailing this coast and they reach good fertile soil where the days and nights are more equal than in Greenland or Iceland and where fruits and berries grow freely. They decide to stay the winter there, making the first Norse settlement in North America. Once spring came they sailed back to Greenland with a ship loaded with wood and foods. During the voyage home they encounter and rescue a group of ship-wrecked Norsemen, after-which Leifr is called Leifr hinn heppni ("Leif the Lucky").

    The voyage is discussed extensively in Brattahlíd, the main city of Greenland. Leifr's brother Thorvaldr thinks Vinland should be explored more extensively and Leifr agrees to take him with on another voyage, which they gather 30 more crew for. The new expedition returns to the settlement built on the previous journey and stay the winter, feeding themselves by fishing. In the spring Thorvaldr's expedition sails westward to go exploring, finding no signs of human habitation apart from one corn-shed. Returning to their camp for the winter, the next summer they set out to explore to the east of Vinland where they at one point embark into a pleasant forested area, where Thorvaldr remarked that he would like to raise his dwelling there. When returning to their ship they saw three canoes with nine skraelings there, so they attacked them, but one got away and later the Skraelings returned with a larger force and attack Thorvaldr and his men, fatally wounding him with an arrow. He is buried in Vinland. Thorstein Eíriksson, determined to go there for his brother's dead body, never reaches Vinland as he dies from a disease during his journey.

    Thorstein's wife Gudrid went back to Greenland where she would meet Thorfinnr "Karlsefni" Thórdarson, a rich man recently arrived from Norway, whom she would later marry after he falls in love with her. Listening to his wife's suggestions Karlsefni would invest in an attempt to settle Vinland properly, sending many ships and hundreds of people to establish colonies. They establish trade with the Skraelings, although he forbids them to trade weapons. By their second winter in Vinland the Skraelings come again to trade, but this time one of Karslefni's men kill one of them for trying to steal his weapons. Fearing that they would return in larger numbers to fight, Karlsefni makes his preparations for battle and when they do return the Norsemen fight them off, despite having fewer warriors. During their stay in the colony Gudrid bore him a son, namned Snorri, that is the first child of European settlers in the new world. Having made good profits on his journey west Karlsefni returned to Greenland the next spring.

    ..And here we are. While in reality they had some hard battles with the indigenous peoples and gave up on the new lands, in this mod the up-to-300 settlers would see themselves triumphant against the Skraelings and end up attracting more settlers, reaching a stable population and having founded a new Norse country. Growing in population and territory over centuries and unlike his father, who remained staunchly Ásatrú, Leifr had converted to Christianity and thus there is both Ásatrú and Christianity in Vinland, struggling over who will define the character of the Norse people.

    While they are a faded memory in Europe and have lost contact with their ancestral homes in Greenland & Iceland, they flourish in their new homeland. Building strong trade and expanding their colonies ever outward.


    DOWNLOAD:

    Vinland DW v1.3


    New Map Setup
    Provinces:


    [ 1399 Campaign Map - The White Raven ]

    [ 1500 Campaign Map - Collapse of the Althing ]

    [ 1522 Campaign Map - Nine Long Nights ]

    [ Alt-1399 Campaign Map - Of All Kings the Wisest ]

    [ Alt-1399 Campaign Map - In Cauda Venenum ]


    New Nations (Alt-Scenario exclusive tags not listed)

    -Vinland

    -Ísland (to be formed by any of it's regional Gođi)

    -Skrípieyjar

    -Various tags in the British Isles (Irish minors, Isle of Man, Alba (Gaelic Scotland), Dyflin, Waterford, Cork)

    -Wabanaki and other North American tribes (Niantic, Lenape, Powhatan, Potawatomi, Ojibwa, Apache)

    -Iga'taqan (Can be created via the early part of an event chain between Vinland-Wabanaki)

    -Sami (Not independent, but releasable, and has cores throughout Sápmi)

    -Ellrigardr (Skraeling tribe subject to the Vinlandic Jarls. Has the distinction of being an Ásatrú convert and being in the Vinlandic techgroup for a Mi'kmaq nation)

    -Various lesser Jarldoms that make up Vinland.

    -Various Mesoamerican nations.

    -Various Andean nations.

    -Eranshahr (The Realm of Iran. Zoroastrian remnant as opposed to the Muslim Persian nation.)

    -Samogitia (The last remnant of Lithuanian heathenry)

    -Egypt (Coptic)

    New Religions

    -Ásatrú (though it is certainly not my place to say if they prefer the Vanir or not!)

    -Norse Catholic (Heavily cultural and heretical Catholicism developed in isolation and Norse traditions. Both it and Ásatrú are present and in conflict in Vinland, with Ásatrúar Jarls, but shifting between them has a reduced Stab-cost and can be done straight away if you prefer Christianity. )

    -Ukonusko (Finnish paganism. Hopefully any Sami here won't mind that I generalized their religion into it as well, as it is just a couple of provinces!)

    -Midewiwin (North American Indian)

    -Teotl (Mesoamerican)

    -Inti (Andean)

    -Zoroastrian (Eranshahr)

    -Egyptian (More precisely: the traditional nilitic Nubian gods based on the Egyptian pantheon. Not a state-religion anywhere and if not converted to while the province is still around it disappears)

    Thanks to..

    -Urcules (I still had an old version of his Vinland (Pretty much just the flag, Vinlandic Catholicism and purple Newfoundland), which I started this thing with. I like the flag, though. ;D )

    -Humble Humbert: For letting me use his background for the Faction window to at least not have it be Chinese for now, even if not especially Norse.

    -Keinwyn and others who have taken the time to walk me through some event-stuff.

    -17blue17 for finding an error I hadn't thought of at all. I love you so much.

    -Anubisfike.

    -BritNavFan.

    -Ubik & the MagnaMundi folks for the Mesoamerican & Andean basis + Midewiwin/Teotl/Inti/Zoroastrian icons!

    -Senior Icelandic Correspondent Olvirki.

  2. #2
    Creator of Worlds majortopio's Avatar
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    Wonderful idea. Necessary, yet wonderful idea

  3. #3
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by majortopio View Post
    Wonderful idea. Necessary, yet wonderful idea
    Thanks. Updated the download link, though. Noticed I accidentally uploaded it with the PDF of the map inside. Those 60mbs do not need to be there. ಠ_ಠ

    Also updated aesthetic things like changing the names of the Faroe Islands/Shetland, made the Icelandic provinces more consistent and added Positions so it isn't as hideous.

    (The direction of Ports are completely nonsensical, though. Not two are the same even with the same direction in the tool and it's really counter-intuitive. Ugh. )

    EDIT: Just found a major CtD error via 17blue17 related to Religious Groups. Will have a non-CtD:ing version up in a bit!

    EDIT2: Alright, it's up! This one shouldn't be CtD:ing, so don't worry on this one! Three decades into my high-speed Hands-off game at the moment. So far no issues!

  4. #4
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    What patch do I need to play?

    Edit: The port in Hlífland doesn't function, this is what I did to fix it:

    Code:
        port = { 
            x = 1926.466667
            y = 1616.666667
        } 
    
        port_rotation = 2.868776

    edit2: also are you 100% sure you want to use the faction system for Vinland (and maybe other countries too)? Currently I can't even open a faction menu to see what is going on playing as Vinland. The whole faction system is pretty frustrating, at least for me. Though I have to say you did a really good job with this all so far.

    Also Vinlandic culture in Europe will revolt to Vinland by default, which is pretty bad since I don't know any route to go there and I can't sell off the territory before I got a few discoveries around it. I also can't see any religious icons, though I guess you know this.

    Villrland starts out with a core for Iga'taqan, as I understood this country isn't even in play from the start so maybe it shouldn't be there.

    edit3: maybe you'd also want to add new provinces inside some of the wastelands, at least the Québec wasteland would be nice to have some new provinces in as it is very close to your starting position and wastelands in general are just ugly to look at.

    edit4: The port in Helluland (Labrador) doesn't function either, this is what I did to fix it:

    Code:
        port = { 
            x = 1911.775000
            y = 1781.720000
        } 
    
        port_rotation = 3.663211
    Last edited by anubisfike; 18-07-2011 at 15:27.

  5. #5
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    What patch do I need to play?

    Edit: The port in Hlífland doesn't function, this is what I did to fix it:

    Code:
        port = { 
            x = 1926.466667
            y = 1616.666667
        } 
    
        port_rotation = 2.868776
    Duly noted and updated on both accounts. I use the July 12th beta, so that's the only one I can say for sure it works on.

  6. #6
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    I use the July 12th beta, so that's the only one I can say for sure it works on.
    Indeed, I had an older version installed on my vanilla folder of EU3 that I copied to make a new folder for this mod, which caused it to crash while loading. Once I had updated to the july 12th patch it worked just fine.

    Another thing to note would be the different shrines available to construct in provinces with the Norse Ásatrú religion. Some of them seem a bit too strong, like the cultural shrine which gives a whole 1 cultural tradition per year. In my opinion the whole system with the shrines could use a bit more work with certain limits like only being able to have 3 shrines of each type for example. The tech investment shrines seem balanced for their cost and availability as it is, but especially the cultural one seems too strong.

    Prestige is fine, though it could be bumped down to 0.1% per year, the infamy shrine is also fine but it could be bumped down to 0.05 per year. This is just some of my ideas of course, you might have a completely different view of the system and plan to do other things with it in the future.

  7. #7
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    edit2: also are you 100% sure you want to use the faction system for Vinland (and maybe other countries too)?
    Yeah, but don't worry, I do not plan to make it some big crippler like it is in China, just to have varying ascendant factions and hopefully events and playstyles associated with them. You'll notice I severly reduced the cost for swaying the balance (1 Magistrate cost), but added some Stat-requirements. So if the leader isn't incompetent with Military policy, he can rely more on the Hirdmen and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Currently I can't even open a faction menu to see what is going on playing as Vinland. The whole faction system is pretty frustrating, at least for me. Though I have to say you did a really good job with this all so far.

    I also can't see any religious icons, though I guess you know this.
    You can't? D: I see both the religious icons and can open Faction menus just fine.. Does anyone else have these problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Also Vinlandic culture in Europe will revolt to Vinland by default, which is pretty bad since I don't know any route to go there and I can't sell off the territory before I got a few discoveries around it.
    Oh, horse-apples.. Hm.. I suppose I might be able to add something about the VIN tag only revolting on VIN cores in the revolter_trigger file to prevent that? I'll run some tests.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Villrland starts out with a core for Iga'taqan, as I understood this country isn't even in play from the start so maybe it shouldn't be there.
    Nah, that's not an issue. Iga'taqan are the people of the Wildlands, so they should be cored even if (especially if) others try to take it over. Though yeah, it'll probably be rendered obsolete if tightening up the Settler-chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    edit4: The port in Helluland (Labrador) doesn't function either
    Alrighty!

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Another thing to note would be the different shrines available to construct in provinces with the Norse Ásatrú religion. Some of them seem a bit too strong, like the cultural shrine which gives a whole 1 cultural tradition per year. In my opinion the whole system with the shrines could use a bit more work with certain limits like only being able to have 3 shrines of each type for example. The tech investment shrines seem balanced for their cost and availability as it is, but especially the cultural one seems too strong.

    Prestige is fine, though it could be bumped down to 0.1% per year, the infamy shrine is also fine but it could be bumped down to 0.05 per year. This is just some of my ideas of course, you might have a completely different view of the system and plan to do other things with it in the future.
    No-no, don't worry. They're not supposed to be strong forces (and I think they might be quite messy in the code right now anyway. I also don't think the Norse-Catholic Church-administration equivalent is working). They're not supposed to be allowed if any other shrines exist in neighbouring provinces, but what's the limiter of amounts? The stronger ones (although they'll be nerfed too) should be few and far between.

  8. #8
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    You can't? D: I see both the religious icons and can open Faction menus just fine.. Does anyone else have these problems?
    As a note to this I haven't changed anything about these things and what I am playing is just a clean vanilla install with the july 12th patch with this mod applied on top of it. Maybe it needs to be run as a mod? I've started just applying mods on top of the base install since the earlier DW versions didn't properly support mod folders, maybe it's actually just this that's causing problems. I'll check later.

  9. #9
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    As a note to this I haven't changed anything about these things and what I am playing is just a clean vanilla install with the july 12th patch with this mod applied on top of it. Maybe it needs to be run as a mod? I've started just applying mods on top of the base install since the earlier DW versions didn't properly support mod folders, maybe it's actually just this that's causing problems. I'll check later.
    Aah. Yes, it's run as a mod. Map-modding is functional again if one is using Replace.

  10. #10
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    has_building = temple

    in either allow or potential section.

  11. #11
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Alrighty, currently doing a proper overhaul of the Vé system so it'll work. How would I go about making sure they're deleted as province-modifiers only if Non-Ásatrúar/Norse-Catholics own the province?

  12. #12
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    You could probably copy parts of the event that fires when you leave a trade league, the one that removes all the trading league office modifiers, and change it so it happens when you convert from either of those religions to any other one and have it remove all those modifiers.

    It might be a hassle typing in all of the different modifiers, but it should work just fine.

    Code:
    # League Trade Stations Close Down
    country_event = {
    	id = 1093
    	
    	trigger = {
    		in_league = no
    		has_country_flag = league_kontors
    	}	
    	mean_time_to_happen = {
    		months = 1
    	}
    	
    	title = "EVTNAME1093"
    	desc = "EVTDESC1093"
    	
    	option = {
    		name = "EVTOPTA1093"	# Close down all Stations
    		remove_province_modifier = league_kontor # applied for all owned provinces
    		clr_country_flag = league_kontors
    	}
    }
    You could create a flag that a country gets when you enact the province decision to build a shrine and change in_league=no to something like not having any norse religion. Have the event trigger when you have the flag norse_shrines or something similar, as well as not having any norse religion.

  13. #13
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    You could probably copy parts of the event that fires when you leave a trade league, the one that removes all the trading league office modifiers, and change it so it happens when you convert from either of those religions to any other one and have it remove all those modifiers.

    It might be a hassle typing in all of the different modifiers, but it should work just fine.

    You could create a flag that a country gets when you enact the province decision to build a shrine and change in_league=no to something like not having any norse religion. Have the event trigger when you have the flag norse_shrines or something similar, as well as not having any norse religion.
    Excellent! Forgot about that.

    When I was adding info on the Vé it seems something went wonky, though. Now every province in the world has loads of nonsense-decisions that I haven't added anywhere.

    It only happens when I have " not = { any_owned = { has_province_modifier = shrine_to_loki } } "s on Loki/Bragi's Vé. Without it they disappear and the decisions work just fine (they're broken too when they have them). Obviously I want to limit the more powerful ones in number, so how should I rephrase it in the Potential line so it'd work? *Sigh*


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Also Vinlandic culture in Europe will revolt to Vinland by default, which is pretty bad since I don't know any route to go there and I can't sell off the territory before I got a few discoveries around it. I also can't see any religious icons, though I guess you know this.
    Hm.. Are you sure this is still the case if running it from /mod/? I've run tests on Caithness and Hjaltlandseyar to confirm this and they both defected to Skrípieyar, not Vinland. Caithness has a core for SKR, so that's understandable, but only Norway has a core on Hjaltlandseyar.

  14. #14
    Dremora Courtier Arakhor's Avatar
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    Forgive me for asking, but why have you added a bunch of other small (apparently American) nations, in addition to Vinland?
    Ius Hibernicum, in nomine juris. Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

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  15. #15
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Okey-dokey, got Vé:s, Kyrki rád and the removal of both working now. Until I have a working variant of "not = { any_owned = { has_province_modifier = shrine_to_loki } }" we'll have to operate on the honour-system on not spamming them, folks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arakhor View Post
    Forgive me for asking, but why have you added a bunch of other small (apparently American) nations, in addition to Vinland?
    Because I want to have something for Vinland to play off of? I don't want it to turn into a Cherokee game where you just sit around and wait for the west to come to you for a few centuries (although obviously Vinland has an easier time going to them eventually).

    Though Apache is more because I just felt like it.

  16. #16
    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Hm.. Are you sure this is still the case if running it from /mod/? I've run tests on Caithness and Hjaltlandseyar to confirm this and they both defected to Skrípieyar, not Vinland. Caithness has a core for SKR, so that's understandable, but only Norway has a core on Hjaltlandseyar.
    I believe it happens when rebels of Vinlandic culture revolt, in other words patriots not nationalists. For example England or Scotland could easily get one of the provinces off of Skrípieyar and then patriots revolt. Vinland is the "go to" country for Vinlandic culture and thus they automatically defect to Vinland if they exist.

    Or I am completely wrong and it was another flaw from not running it as a mod, but I do believe this is how the system should work. I've reinstalled it and started playing it as a mod already but by then most of the Vinlandic culture in Europe was controlled by pretty stable countries so there haven't been any defections now.

    If I turn out to be right, you could probably make Skrípieyar or Iceland the main Vinlandic culture nation, as it would make more sense for provinces in Europe to defect to either of them. It would also make more sense for any American provinces with Vinlandic culture to try to get a ruler from Europe to help them out, instead of European provinces wanting to be ruled by what should be a largely unknown nation with a relatively small population, that has lost contact with Europe hundreds of years ago.

  17. #17
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    I believe it happens when rebels of Vinlandic culture revolt, in other words patriots not nationalists. For example England or Scotland could easily get one of the provinces off of Skrípieyar and then patriots revolt. Vinland is the "go to" country for Vinlandic culture and thus they automatically defect to Vinland if they exist.
    But that is what happened for me. I started it up, sent spies to cause a Patriot Revolt in those two place, tag-switched to delete the Norwegian Navy/Scottish Army so that they wouldn't put it down, then baby-sat them untill they defected. Both went to Skrípieyar.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Or I am completely wrong and it was another flaw from not running it as a mod, but I do believe this is how the system should work. I've reinstalled it and started playing it as a mod already but by then most of the Vinlandic culture in Europe was controlled by pretty stable countries so there haven't been any defections now.
    Ah, so it wasn't as a /mod/. Please do report if it happens again and I'll implement counter-measures specifically against that, though I'll likely add some caveats in the revolter_trigger file in either case.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    If I turn out to be right, you could probably make Skrípieyar or Iceland the main Vinlandic culture nation, as it would make more sense for provinces in Europe to defect to either of them. It would also make more sense for any American provinces with Vinlandic culture to try to get a ruler from Europe to help them out, instead of European provinces wanting to be ruled by what should be a largely unknown nation with a relatively small population, that has lost contact with Europe hundreds of years ago.
    I'm not really counting on Skrípieyar being able to stay alive without either a human player or direct protection from a regional power. Mostly added a protection against England getting "Conquer Ireland" as a mission prior to 1435 to give them some breathingroom. Didn't stand a chance before that, since England had vastly superior fleets and armies and would just park ontop of them on Day 2. They can still declare war on 'em, but they need to find a reason to do so first (although the computer still seems quite eager to just aggressively lash out at them lacking a CB.. I'll be adding a Truce right before the start to atleast give them ~4 years without that happening too).

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    Waiting for The Miracle anubisfike's Avatar
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    Alright well that was probably on my end then.

    I'd also just like to say I have added new provinces in Scandinavia and the British Isles for my own personal little mod that you hadn't in yours; Blekinge, the isle of Man, Uppland and Ĺland. (I also changed the Stockholm province similarly to how the modern day borders of Södermanland are to give some more room for positions and the text in it). If you are interested I could provide positions for them and (perhaps less importantly) some history files and localization to add some more detail to those areas beyond what you already did. I've added Vendsyssel, Öland and the Channel Islands as well but I noticed you already added Vendsyssel and Öland, and I'm not sure if the Channel Islands actually are important enough for the general setting of this mod to deserve a split from Normandie.

    In any case, tell me if you are interested and I'll give you some positions and the rest if you want.

  19. #19
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Blekinge, Uppland and Ĺland.
    Hm.. So essentially:

    ?
    Go ahead and send the info on the changes in Sweden apart from the Ĺland Islands, since I can't see making much of a use for them. Sweden has plenty of provinces already.

    (Edit: Do note, I am adding them to my own map right now, but it'd be nice to have your files for reference to see what direction you went with it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    Isle of Man
    Heh. The War I added for Skrípieyar to start with a truce from was "English Conquest of Copeland" (which is the West-Coast of Cumbria, as if they still held the port-city there prior to the start). Certainly they would not suffer the indignity of abandoning two territories at once! Cumbria be damned!

    It is just an island, though, so I can just go ahead and toss in a new colour for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by anubisfike View Post
    I'm not sure if the Channel Islands actually are important enough for the general setting of this mod to deserve a split from Normandie.
    Agreed.

  20. #20
    Dremora Courtier Arakhor's Avatar
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    Well, even today, the Channel Islands are considered to be part of the (lapsed) Duchy of Normandy, so I think it's just as easy to keep them to non-province status.
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