General Discussion

[lukew]

Riga was a Hanseatic trading port that was given special rights by the Emperor, being very briefly (~20 years) an Imperial city. It's debatable whether or not it should actually be in the HRE. Riga was conquered in the 1500's and the HRE wasn't involved at all, so that would make me lean more towards them not being in the HRE.

Ah, ok then. What about the other HRE provinces in that area?

[Dafool]

Well I would much more like the idea of MUCH MUCH fewer 'random' rebels due to revolt risk, and more large scale rebellions. It's always annoying to chase down the 2-3 stacks popping up on the edges of your empire, but every 20-40 years having a full scale rebellions in one of your territories (say greece) if you had a crap ruler with low legitimacy would be interesting. Similar to the Yuan cede-provinces at-war rebels.

I'll keep this in mind and see what I can do. If you ever play as the Inca, you'll occasionally get a civil war event if you're not in the best shape. It causes large scale rebellions that are scaled with your nation's size. I might be able to throw together some generic versions of these to give nations very occasional uprisings that seem a little more organized and threatening.

[zedyue]

I'll keep this in mind and see what I can do. If you ever play as the Inca, you'll occasionally get a civil war event if you're not in the best shape. It causes large scale rebellions that are scaled with your nation's size. I might be able to throw together some generic versions of these to give nations very occasional uprisings that seem a little more organized and threatening.

That would be absolutely fantastic. Rebels have always just been an annoyance, giving them some use on occasion without making them OP would be great. And cultural rebellions are certainly have historical base lol.

[Dafool]

Ah, ok then. What about the other HRE provinces in that area?

It questionable. I'd say remove the Livonian Order/Teutonic Order areas completely, simply because the HRE didn't formally claim the area. It was just responsible for the treaty that handed it over the the LO/TO. I think maybe Riga should have the option of joining the HRE. That might be the best way to handle the situation: Give non-crusader states in that area the option to join the Empire, but perhaps with a cost and certain requirements.

[Gunnarr]

What is the reasoning behind it? I assumed it was a gameplay balance thing due to culture group income and such. Sure its not REALISTIC but its a buff to both the Turkish nations and the Greeks so I don't see it as a big deal.

The Ottoman Greece during its rule by the did not have nearly the economic prosperity as before, so I don't understand why it should now be treated as though it had the same economic situation if taken by the Ottomans. Further I do not see any great gameplay reasons to change it, as before this change was made the Ottomans still changed Istanbul to Turkish culture with its decision that makes it the Capital, which goes right along with the its historical economy as it was not based at all in Greece. Greek becoming an accepted culture of the Ottomans already takes care of the income problems if this is really about income.

A reasoning for the change was also said to be the Greeks in a way welcomed the Ottoman rule because they were more innovative and less corrupt. Even if that were true for the short-term, it certainly was not for the long term! And if you flip it to the other side, I hardly see the the Turks being welcoming to the Greeks if Byzantium takes Turkish Asia-Minor!

[LightStalker13]

I really know very little about the Baltic, it's one of my weakest areas in history. (PS You can tell which are my strongest by who has the most decisions ) I'm happy to go with your judgement Dafool, but I'm fairly sure that historically some of those provinces were in the HRE. Wasn't Riga an imperial city? Maybe there is a case for removing a few of the HRE provinces, but keeping some key ones like Riga?

I agree - If you are going to remove a few HRE provinces, all the ones in the Baltic States should be removed except for Riga, which was basically a Catholic outpost in the pagan baltics. Of course, these provinces could be reincorporated into the Empire through Rigan conquest, which are usually only player-led.

[lukew]

The Ottoman Greece during its rule by the did not have nearly the economic prosperity as before, so I don't understand why it should now be treated as though it had the same economic situation if taken by the Ottomans. Further I do not see any great gameplay reasons to change it, as before this change was made the Ottomans still changed Istanbul to Turkish culture with its decision that makes it the Capital, which goes right along with the its historical economy as it was not based at all in Greece. Greek becoming an accepted culture of the Ottomans already takes care of the income problems if this is really about income.

A reasoning for the change was also said to be the Greeks in a way welcomed the Ottoman rule because they were more innovative and less corrupt. Even if that were true for the short-term, it certainly was not for the long term! And if you flip it to the other side, I hardly see the the Turks being welcoming to the Greeks if Byzantium takes Turkish Asia-Minor!

You may want to read what CanOmer wrote about putting them in the same group here (and the next few pages):

Now, I put Old Turkish in Turko Byzantine group also. In the 14-18th centuries Greeks and Turks were very similar people.

ThanksSemitic, why? I put in Old Turkish into Turko Byzantine group, too. In the first Turks came to Anatolia they called themselves Rûm, thus Roman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Rum
Also, historians say that Greeks and Turks were very similar in this ages.

I am still thinking the cultures issue. Turko-Semitic group was too large, (Germanic too). Balance is important also, but AI behaviour is more important. For example AI doesn't attack countries which have the same culture. So I splitted Turkish culture in two: Old Turkish and Turkish.

I can create a new group called Turkish and Ottoman, Karman, Candar, Germiyan...etc would be sub cultures of Turkish group. (Like germanic group) But in Anatolia there is not many provinces or population as Germany. So I added Turkish cultures in Turko Byzantine group which is more close than the Semitic to the Turks. Since the 11. century Turks live in Anatolia with other cultures and Turkish countries called themselves Rûm (Roman).

About the Greek/Byzantine and Turkish similarities;
Original Turks were from the Central Asia migrate into Anatolia since the 11th century. There were 4-5 million people in Anatolia before the Turks. And, not millions of Turks came, groups of few thousands of them which were nomad people and without experince of state organisation like Rome (Byzantium). Total migrating Turks to Anatolia were about 600 thousands at least.

Central Asian (original) Turks are slant-eyed: http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8734/22381598.jpg , http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...azakh_yurt.jpg
But Anatolian Turks are not slant-eyed: http://www.ethnicturkey.com/wp-conte...kishPeople.png

Double headed eagles are used by Byzantium. I want to show Turkish double-headed eagles:

http://www.bilinmeyenler.org/images/...arih/krty.jpeg
http://www.yenidenergenekon.com/wp-c.../image0046.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Divrigi02.jpg
http://www.yenidenergenekon.com/wp-c...image00214.jpg

Turks used Byzantium's state organizations, institutions, culture with the varnish of Islam.
Today, original Turk gene is below %10 percent in Anatolia as far as I know. The gene is not the criteria of course, but I want to point out.
The certain thing that I know my grandmother who is can't read or write can but speak Greek language as well as Turkish. Because where she lived in upstate in her childhood where many people knows and uses Greek language even today. Maybe some of them are Muslim Greeks, who knows..

Empire treated the peoples with their religions, not nationality. For example there were not Greeks but there were Orthodox. Or there were not Turks or Arabs, but Muslims, actually Sunni muslims. Because Shiites were not welcomed.

[Dafool]

You may want to read what CanOmer wrote about putting them in the same group here (and the next few pages).

CanOmer made a good argument, but it wasn't without its flaws. The fact of the matter is that cultures and culture groups can be difficult to group together and break apart. The Greek-Turkish merger is change that can easily be argued either way. As with most changes, I think it's best to let gameplay prove whether "stretching" history a bit is worth it.

[lukew]

CanOmer made a good argument, but it wasn't without its flaws. The fact of the matter is that cultures and culture groups can be difficult to group together and break apart. The Greek-Turkish merger is change that can easily be argued either way. As with most changes, I think it's best to let gameplay prove whether "stretching" history a bit is worth it.

IMO it makes the most historical sense, more so than having a Turkish group and more so than having it in the Arab group. On top of that is the wonderful gameplay bonuses that combining the culture groups has.

[zedyue]

Since we are discussing cultures, I've noticed in particular that Iraqi al arab (whatever the province is named) in Iraq almost always gets converted to mongol. I don't know if the Jalyrids are somehow managing to use that one culture change decision/modifier or if the rate of conversion of a province based on it being your capital is too large, but it's annoying to see a large revolter Iraq not having the province named Iraq. Happening in every game for me.

[YuriKaslov]

It should be German. Not quite sure which Germanic though, probably Prussian though.

Tuchel and it's surrounding area's villages had Germanic names at this point of time last time I checked.

As I understand it, even up to 1918 the West Prussia/Pommerelia province was (with the exception of the Deutsch-Krone area) predominantly Polish.

[polskaGOLA]

Well there the confusion can be found. Tuchel and Pomerelia are not the same things. Tuchel was a part of Pomerelia and German inhabited. Pomerelia as a whole, was German populated in the cities, and Polish and Kashubian populations in the rural areas. Atleast that's the way I think it was.

Also wiki says Pomerelia should be Pomeranian inhabited.

[YuriKaslov]

Well there the confusion can be found. Tuchel and Pomerelia are not the same things. Tuchel was a part of Pomerelia and German inhabited. Pomerelia as a whole, was German populated in the cities, and Polish and Kashubian populations in the rural areas. Atleast that's the way I think it was.

Also wiki says Pomerelia should be Pomeranian inhabited.

I'm referring to "Tuchel" in game terms, a province (not the city), which roughly corresponds to West Prussia, Pommerelia, and the Polish Corridor (though not exactly the same as any of them; W. Prussia had part of Hinterpommern, Posen, and Thorn; Pommerelia includes Danzig and Royal Prussia I believe; the Polish Corridor specifically refers to the strip of land between Danzig and the in-game Koslin province); the region had, roughly, a 2 - 1 ratio of Poles to Germans at the time of the Second Republic, which infers that it never had a German majority at any point during the how ever many non-continuous years it had been in German control.

[Sun_Wu]

Luke, would you consider allowing substitution of advisors for ruler skill? for example advisor 6=ruler 8, advisor 5=ruler 7, advisor 4=ruler 6.

[Alybear]

It would be awesome if you could make http://www.deathandtaxesmod.com/ link to the thread with the download link, like it used to. :P

[lukew]

Luke, would you consider allowing substitution of advisors for ruler skill? for example advisor 6=ruler 8, advisor 5=ruler 7, advisor 4=ruler 6.

I don't think that's something that's moddable.

It would be awesome if you could make http://www.deathandtaxesmod.com/ link to the thread with the download link, like it used to. :P

Updated, thanks. It now directs you to the sub-forum.

[zedyue]

I keep wondering if we should have some sort of "Your ideas/wishes for the next version of D&T" like most of the main games have.

[Sun_Wu]

I don't think that's something that's moddable.



Updated, thanks. It now directs you to the sub-forum.

Sorry, I was only talking about westernisation which you could use a simple OR in the code for.

[lukew]

Sorry, I was only talking about westernisation which you could use a simple OR in the code for.

Ah, I misunderstood. Good idea.

[Arakhor]

I keep wondering if we should have some sort of "Your ideas/wishes for the next version of D&T" like most of the main games have.

7,000 posts into the thread, I think that this would be a good idea.