Looking for someone knowledgeable in Spanish politics/history

RainbowFire said:

I couldn't give two bananas over the name of Javier/Xaiver, that can be discussed after some headway is made on content. The same is true to me about the back story.

So can the focus be on the Congresses please?

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My proposal:

Syndies revolt > First Congress (aka War Congress).

Proposals of the First Congress:
- Organization of the military.
- Organization of the economy.
- The issue of the land.
- The issue of the Church.
- The issue of the POWs.
- Results of the first Congress.

Now I go to sleep. Tomorrow we shall discuss the details.

Well, I will try to work something from it:

The land:
Discussions have arisen about what to do with the land seized to the landowners, blah, blah...

Social-Revolutionaries: Distribute the land between the landless peasants.
Anarchists: Collectivize the land.
Statists: Put it under an agricultural board in the name of the efficiency.
Alternative option: It's not time for petty discussions. First win the war!

RainbowFire said:

So the first Congress (we need a name for the Spanish congresses) would be about the shape of the military and land ownership. Looks fine to me, though the chances of there being a 'compromise' leadership will be high. Makes sense though. Onto the next Congress then?

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The first Congress also includes the organization of the whole economy. Indeed, there would be an high chance of a "Popular Front".

I think that before going to the next Congress we should determine the details of this one.

PS: A good name can be "Worker's Council" or "People's Assembly".

RainbowFire said:

Land ownership is as far as the first Congress should go with regards to the economy. There's a bloody civil war going on with three enemies, I doubt the Syndicalists would try a restructuring of the economy and lose some of their power base when they need all the help they can get.

About the Popular Front, I think that it should always form, the Revolutionaries couldn't afford as I said already any loss of their power base (esp if the Totalists won in the first Congress).

The 'Worker's Council Congress' sounds good to me as the British 'TUC Congresses' means pretty much the same thing.

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The formation of a Popular Front is the only logic choice, but history tolds us that infighting during the War is also possible. About the economy, precisely because the war there should be options regarding if a war economy is adopted or not. And there's also the issue of the industry.

RainbowFire said:

I'm against this because of the amount of work it will entail for every single rebellion. The implications that the Syndicalist Spanish can have infighting during the rebellion would carry over to all other rebellions. Frankly, I'm not in mood to do that. So please, let's just have further issues in the Congresses.

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¿Amount of work? Just a rise of dissent and few revolts.

*bump*

Ideas will be appreciated, even if you want to add economical matters or Popular Front in the First Congress.

First Congress:

Organization of the military.
- Statists: An average, professional army with political ramifications to export the Revolution (less militias, more regular soldiers and manpower) & total mobilization.
- A-S: A large, drafted popular army. Let the people fight for the Revolution (More militias and manpower, less regular soldiers) & total mobilization.
- S-L: A small, professional army for the defense of the Revolution (less militias and manpower, more regular soldiers) & partial mobilization.
- NOTE: Statits want to include some kind of NKVD/SS and political commissars to ensure the loyalty of the army, the A-S defend the mobilization of workers and peasants in popular, democratic militias and the S-L a more traditional military.

Organization of the economy.
- Statists: Total mobilization under a centralized bureau.
- A-S: The worker's syndicates must have the control of the economy.
- S-L: Formation of worker's cooperatives and worker's self-management.

The issue of the land.
- Statists:
- A-S: Collectivization and formation of libertarian communes.
- S-L: Redistribution among the peasants.

The issue of the Church.
- Statists:
- A-S: Religion is the opium of the people, we must remove any single trace of the Church!
- S-L: Religion is a private matter, we should advise against the Church and give so no official support to it.

The issue of women:
- Statists:
- A-S: Women and men are equal, so they must have both the same rights and duties, even the front line.
- S-L: Women and men are equal, so they must have the same rights and duties.

Results of the first Congress: Formation of a Popular Front, with more presence of the faction who wins the majority of the events.

I left in blank the points were I'm not sure.

RainbowFire said:

mmm, Syndicates *are* worker's councils. Instead, why not have the options more in line with other nations and have it so it's 'Rapid Industrialisation' (Statists) 'Orthodox Syndicalism' (A-S) and 'Expand both the Industry and Agriculture'?

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That ideas are for the Second Congress. In the first one the priority is victory, not the growin path.

BTW, workers cooperatives =/= worker's councils.

RainbowFire said:

Issuse of land should something more like 'Start the Collectivization process' (Statists) 'Let farming be run by local syndicates' (A-S) and maybe 'Have land redistribution, but with limited market involvement' (S-L) (CSA rip)

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The A-S option is the historical one. I agree that Statists should defend the collectivization, but the A-S want to do it too. Perhaps the difference could be that the A-S want a decentralized system of libertarian communes and the Statists a centralized one.

RainbowFire said:

The Issue of the Church should have the Statists demanding a general liquidation, and I think the A-S and S-L would agree in letting it remain a private matter.

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Again, the A-S option I suggest is the historical one. Even prior the Civil War anarchists often attacked churches, destroyed religious sculptures and paintings and desecrated the tombs inside the temples. So here it would be basically the same.

About Statists, I thought that they could propose the creation of a "Proletarian Church", split from Rome, who support the Revolution.

RainbowFire said:

The role of women shouldn't be a Congress decision, it would be something that would appear if it were at the first Congress and would be a flavor thing. I don't think the Revolutionaries would reject help from anyone.

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Flavor? In OTL Civil War there were entire militia regiments formed only by women until the government disbanded them. I think the same would happen in KR but with the option to integrate those militias into the general war effort.

So... Any other ideas on this?

Yeah, we toyed with the idea of a "Red Pope" chain for Socialist Italy for a time, but that was too silly. No need to ressurect the idea now.

RainbowFire said:

Workers cooperatives =/= worker's councils is is relative moot point since the mod uses the terms interchangeably. Look, I know you want to use your ideas on a lot of this, but it just seems mostly be semantics to me. The typical Syndie stuff can work just fine for the economic matters.

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It's more than semantics but if the mod uses the terms interchangeably (I think that in Spanish the difference is wider than in English) it's ok.

RainbowFire said:

Absolutely no to a 'Proletarian Church' that's too ASB. If the A-S want to destroy the Church then the Statists will want to do something worse (they are Stalinists after all) maybe an outright liquidation of religious personnel?

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In fact, the destruction of the Church promoted by the A-S includes the outright liquidation of religious personnel and every single believer. The point is that I can't imagine anything worse.

BTW, I was thinking that in the First Congress isn't necessary having a proposal for each faction, so we could simply put that the mater was debated and the options are X or Y (or Z if available). Then the land, the Church and the women would have only two options.

PS: Usually, "my ideas" are the ideas of the Spanish Forum.

I think that this mod cartoonizes the ideologies too much. The point of the anarchists would be ending with the religion chaotically (in no way saying "it is a private matter"), and the Totalits ending with it orderly or instrumentalize it. Anyway, the religion can appear as a reaction of the 'Encyclical against syndicalism". The people burning churches and all the stuff and the government deciding how respond.

Barón Rojo said:

I think that this mod cartoonizes the ideologies too much. The point of the anarchists would be ending with the religion chaotically (in no way saying "it is a private matter"), and the Totalits ending with it orderly or instrumentalize it. Anyway, the religion can appear as a reaction of the 'Encyclical against syndicalism". The people burning churches and all the stuff and the government deciding how respond.

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Well, as far I'm concerned, in the Spanish case animosity against the Church is bigger and "older" than other countries, so the Encyclical comes a bit later. But yes, I think the main difference would be "How" instead of "How much".

I don't know if the Spanish Totalists could be more 'rural' (more 'Maoist'), using populism about land reform and the peasants as their power base, as opposed to the anarchists and reformists, that will have their power base in the industrial workers (although the anarchists still can have much support between the peasants of specific areas). In this sense the Totalists could propose more 'friendly' politics with the peasants, even if they want a totalitarian state at the end.

Or maybe the other extreme, the Statists could start as members of the reformist faction (almost all of both will have a Marxist background as opposed to the Bakunist anarchists after all) and later secede outraged saying that the reformists "don't want to end with the capitalism in the countryside". 'Statists' will be the name used by their opposers and the general political discourse, I doubt that they would call themselves by that name.

It is only brainstorming about giving more 'personality' and flavour to the factions, maybe this can be decided in an event.