It is more plausible the Falange working with Carlists than the Falange working with Anarchists, Socialists, Communists, etc... well, it is as it was historically.
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As I've said I don't know enough about Spain in this era to say, though I personally would like to see them with the Carlists. This is because the Carlists are really weak minister wise compared to the CNT-FAI/KoS. Here's the start of updated minister files for the states. After the main factions for the CNT-FAI are worked out, I'd imagine this could be worked on next. Most every minister I removed from the CNT-FAI would go to the KoS I'm guessing.
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Azaña doesn't fit here. He's too moderate even for the SR. And L-C, the "Spanish Lenin" is as moderate as Stalin, so to speak.
Viden, you forgot Nin. Shame on you.
Why write notes, I ask?
Myself said:
The Spanish Lenin is Indalecio Prieto, isn't he? Anyway, the guys with (¿?) had that symbol because a reason.
Because that I suggested mixing National-Syndicalist with commies.
No. In any case, commies will go to sleep. Aside that, you forgot some other guys like Dionisio Ridruejo.
No. Historically, Falangists and Carlists hate each other, often killing themselves. Falangists are a revolutionary republican movement whilst Carlists are a reactionary monarchist movement. It's more plausible to have Italian Fascists working with the Pope, but they are in the Socialist Republic, so why the the Spanish National-Syndicalists should work with the enemies of Syndicalism?
In fact, in OTL the mix between the Falange and the Carlists was an order from Franco, leaving no choice to both factions. As result, many Falangists denied Franco and went to the exile just like the Republicans.
And a past as Conservative.
Falange doesn't fit with the Kingdom, and they simply hate the Carlists.
We can search for ministers for the Carlists, that isn't a problem. The problem is if you put the Falange with the Carlists, Mussolini and his followers must go with the Pope and Mosley to Canada. Aside the fact of having radical republicans supporting a hard-line king. Hell, it's like having the Bolsheviks supporting the Czar!
That's not the same thing.
Both Mosley and Mussolini were Socialists who crossed the line and became authoritarian rightist. In KR, they remain leftist and follow their authoritarian path, but their socialist past is undeniable. They would still stay in the Socialist Republic of Italy and the Union of Britain even if the Falange were to work with the Carlists.
Moreover, Mussolini reached power in Italy under a King, so it's not the best example anyway.
Mosley was never Socialist. He was a right-winger whose economic policy was too extremist for the Conservatives, so he tried with the Labour Party hoping they will accept his economy proposals, but nothing more.
So, if a guy who reached the power under a King is a Totalist in the mod, why a guy who rejected the monarchy would be monarchist?
Jose Antonio worked with José Calvo Sotelo, well-known monarchist, and collaborated with the CEDA. His relations with the left were null.
he works with the right-wing in the repulican goverment, if he worked with calvo soltelo he can work with another syndicalist to take the power before the exile of monarchist
I don't think we should make Primo de Rivera syndie. He is very much a part of the elite (being the son of a dictator and a nobleman), was part of an organisation that hated the left on principle and led a movement that attracted arch-conservatives and clerics. He might be revolutionary in his ideas, but in KR terms, he has more in common with Huey Long, Ernst Röhm or Wrangel than Mussolini or Mosley.
Besides wouldn't adding National Populist party to the mix be more interesting than yet another Bolshevist party?
Besides wouldn't adding National Populist party to the mix be more interesting than yet another Bolshevist party?
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Mussolini worked with the nazis and killed any left-winger he found. And? Without the Second Republic, that collaborating is nearly impossible to see.
First: son of what dictator? In KR there's no dictatorship of Primo de Rivera. And even if it was, that means little to nothing. About being nobleman, just like Sir Oswald Mosley, that son of landowners.
Second: About being part of an organization that hated the left on a principle, just like Oswald Mosley and Benito Mussolini. About arch-conservatives and clerics, that isn't really true. Without OTL Spanish Civil War that would never happen. About similarities with Huye Long, Röhm and Wrangel, well, did they defend the destruction of capitalist economy? And the destruction of the monarchy and aristocracy and any sight of the old order? An what about establishing a clear separation between Church and State? etc. I don't see Wrangel overthrowing a Czar or Huey Long destroying any trace of capitalism and hunting down businessman like Ford.
And you are forgetting the JONS (National-Syndicalist Offensive Juntas). This guys were an integral part of the Falange and simply wish to destroy any sight of anything opposed to the creation of a revolutionary collectivist people's State. They even praised Soviet Russia.
AFAIK Primo de Rivera's father still ruled as dictator. As son of a conservative dictator his appeal tot he right would remain. From what I know of Falangism, a romantic view of the Spanish Empire of old in general and the Primo de Rivera dictatorship in particular had been part of the founding principles of the party.
Also, several of the early Nazi's, the Strassers in particular, wished to destroy capitalism. Only after gathering the support of men like Thyssen, Krupp and Hugenberg did the Nazi's change this part of their ideology. Many extreme rightwingers are surprisingly leftist when it comes to economy.
In my opinion the early falange had much in common with the early Nazi-party in its Völkisch aspects and their rejection of capitalism. Thats why I think Primo de Rivera can be grouped together with the likes of Röhm.
Also, several of the early Nazi's, the Strassers in particular, wished to destroy capitalism. Only after gathering the support of men like Thyssen, Krupp and Hugenberg did the Nazi's change this part of their ideology. Many extreme rightwingers are surprisingly leftist when it comes to economy.
In my opinion the early falange had much in common with the early Nazi-party in its Völkisch aspects and their rejection of capitalism. Thats why I think Primo de Rivera can be grouped together with the likes of Röhm.
If Primo de Rivera ruled in KR, then how do you explain that the Monarchy survived without him?
BTW, Mosley was also a son of conservatives landowners.
No. The movement founded by José Antonio has nothing to do with his father dictatorship. Yes, it has a romantic view of the Spanish Empie. And? Fascism had a romantic view of the Roman Empire and that didn't put Mussolini outside the syndies. Even during his socialistic period, Mussolini was famous because his nationalism and imperialism. So, I repeat, what is the difference between one romantic view and another?
You are stuck in OTL Falange's ideology when you changed both OTL BUF and Fascist in order to make them Totalists. If you take OTL Falange without changes, you must take both British and Italian fascists without changes. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
This is because extreme "right-wingers" usually are extreme left-wingers. Strasser is an example of this, and because that the right wing of the NSDAP removed him.
Spanish Falange has little to nothing in common with the Nazis. Their main source of inspiration was Italian fascism, with the exception that the Falange was more left-winger than the Italians.
In fact, they had much in common with the syndies since they were syndies.
The point is that you're telling that the Spanish national-syndicalists, shouldn't go with the syndies. Why no in Spain and yes in Italy? It's the same ideology.
This is fine, although José Antonio was from a pretty conservative background. If Mosley could be a leftist in this timeline, though, then I suppose that's alright. Ideally there should be a choice, though, whether the National Syndicalists collaborate with the right or the left.
Why Negrín? He was a right-winger within the PSOE. He was willing to work with the PCE because it was the only force he felt could win the civil war, and even then the PCE were more suspicious of Negrín (they thought as late as like January 1939 that he harbored secret defeatist tendencies) than he them. Negrín would probably be with the Social-Revolutionaries you mentioned.
Fine.
Fine.
Fine, although was Galician nationalism a significant political force at this point to promote a separate Galicia if need be?
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And a nationalistic & imperialistic background. BTW, I repeat: Mosley doesn't have that Socialist background.
PS: And I repeat again: There were more leaders of the Falange aside Primo de Rivera.
In January 39, if you were republican and you didn't have defeatist tendencies, you were a fanatic or an ignorant.
About Negrín, as far I'm concerned he was a true commie, but I didn't studied him very well.
I think it was, but more than a separate Galicia most of Galician nationalism promoted a decentralized republic.
Well Negrín basically hoped that there would soon be a war in Europe in which the British and French would move against Fascism. He was called "delusional" by his more right-wing and anti-communist colleagues in the PSOE like Besteiro who backed the Casado coup. Besteiro had also claimed in the early 30's that there was no impending danger of Fascism across Europe.
You should check out Helen Graham's The Spanish Republic at War. Gabriel Jackson also recently wrote a book entitled Juan Negrín: Physiologist, Socialist and Spanish Republican War Leader which I hear is a good read.
Yes, I know that. The point is that in January 39 that was the only hope for the Republic.
The Falange is national-syndicalist movement, much like the Action Française, the Nacional-Sindicalistas of Portugal or the Brazilian Integralists. Thus, right-wing and not belonging to the CNT-FAI.
Maybe we COULD have them as a republican-autoritharian faction inside both the Kingdom of Spain and Carlist Spain, but they definitely should be out of the FAI.
Maybe we COULD have them as a republican-autoritharian faction inside both the Kingdom of Spain and Carlist Spain, but they definitely should be out of the FAI.
The Falange is national-syndicalist movement, much like the Action Française, the Nacional-Sindicalistas of Portugal or the Brazilian Integralists. Thus, right-wing and not belonging to the CNT-FAI.
Maybe we COULD have them as a republican-autoritharian faction inside both the Kingdom of Spain and Carlist Spain, but they definitely should be out of the FAI.
And like Italian and British fascism. I repeat again: Why Mosley and Mussolini and no the Falange?
Since it seems you didn't read my posts I quote myself:
Myself said:
BTW, National-Syndicalism is a left-wing ideology in KR. Just check Italy.
The Falange Pre-Civil War was a letf-wing radical movement Post-civil war the party was a instrument of the Franco Propaganda
All we know that it never was left-wing, its model was the italian fascism, it never toke part in any leftist action, all their relations were with reactionaries, Calvo Sotelo, the plotters of the 1936 coup, etc.