Springtime of Nations (Different 1836 Scenario)

[Gloa]

Even in OTL, the Shimazu clan used Ryukyu to avoid China's embargo on Japan and Tokugawa's ban on foreign trade, so it will be the main opposition to the Shogunate, however alliance is too fragile ingame and satellite seems to be a bit too harsh

Alliance seems about right. Just ally and boost relations between certain states if another state is getting too powerful and aggressive. It's not the best way to keep the in place, but it will add some challenge.

I drew this before reading your post so it may not fit your idea:

So the southern part of China should stay Qing at the beginning?

Actually, that might work. Southern China -> a new tag for the New Dynasty. Qing maintains its tag, but loses land to the new New Dynasty tag. Western China either gets the chance to become the Central Asian Republic (which would also gain territory westwards, if Russia had spheres there), or if Russia doesn't offer that (or West China doesn't accept it) it gets events letting it choose to be Mongolia, Xinjiang, or whatever we put in Qinghai and Gansu (all three break off, but the player will be able to choose which one he wants to continue with). It also can lose land to the New Dynasty.

I want to do a little more with Tibet. I think they'd be a separate satellite to the Qing (keeping their old tag and flags and stuff), with the choice to break from the Qing if the rebellion succeeded (but they'd be one of Qing's allies at least to begin with when the thing collapsed).

- Is it possible to add modifiers which slows down the speed of GP influence? Sleeping Dragon event every second year doesn't seem to be a good idea.
- Some potential concession port province could use anti-isolationism OPM revolters who would seek protection of a GP upon independence:

		diplomatic_influence = {
			who = FROM
			value = 500
		}

I don't know about the first one (would be handy to know for my mod, too).
For the second, I'm thinking a little bigger than OPM's. Here, warlords could represent anti-isolationist groups. They'd start out really small, but would grow over time.

Worst-case-scenarios for New Dynasty, depending on reform style:

Pitiful military or other reforms: The New Dynasty is weak and foreign powers are nostalgic about Qing rule. They get free people cbs to prop up the Qing Empire in China, in exchange for gaining influence in the Qing and even in Manchuria.

Pitiful military reforms. Good non-military reforms: The New Dynasty becomes a weak puppet to European powers. Corruption spreads and warlords break off from the useless central government. Of course, military weakness makes them a target for other expanding powers in the region.

Good military reforms. Pitiful other reforms: The modernizing generals get sick and tired of the New Dynasty isolationism and break off, asking for European support (or Europeans can "encourage" the warlords to break off.

Good military and non-military reforms: You've gotten a lot of MIL and CON in pushing past all those reforms, and if you veered too far on one side at any time you could have gotten warlords.

So the best strategy is modernizing as fast as is possible (but it's a slow and difficult road to get there). Second best is staying isolationist, although Europe will contest that.

- Should a civilized Manchuria go for China, Central Asia or Korea and Japan? We can have some flavor event/decisions for that

Manchuria would go for China, Korea, and Japan mostly. It could also go for Alaska, Hawaii, the Philippines, and other such things if the opportunity presented itself.

It would basically pull a Japan on Korea, pulling them into its vassalship/sphere and annexing them. Russia, a quickly westernizing Japan, or maybe the Dutch might contest such a move.

If Japan was still weak, it could jump into that quarrel and snap up the weak ones there.

Upon becoming a Great Power or becoming a Democracy (maybe Prolet. Dictatorship too), they'd have the choice to take down the Qing Dynasty, becoming one unified Manchuria - whereupon they'd be able to nab weaker Chinese warlords or take land from the New Dynasty like normal, with infamy costs (advantages would be less CON and MIL from the decision, improved relations with the Central Asian Republic/the Central Asian revolter states, and no CHI cores in Manchuria), to support the Qing Dynasty (launching themselves into an ambitious war with the New Dynasty to free-peoples on Qing lands - advantages of zero-infamy wars with China and Central Asia, but lower relations and no direct land gain), or to declare themselves to be a part of the greater Qing Dynasty, giving CHI cores on their lands and merging QNG and MCK as the Qing Empire again.

[hoi2geek]

What about . . .

-Replacing Poland with Veneda (Romanaized Poland speaking Wenedyk (see http://steen.free.fr/wenedyk)
-Creating Silesia and Bohemia (Silesian being a Romance language; see http://steen.free.fr/slezan and Bohemian being Germanized Czech)
-Returning the Philippines to Veneda, as well as give it Gambia
-Compensate the Dutch with Sumatra
-Make Aragon into an independent state, as well as turning Argentina into a former Aragonese colony (called Riu de l'Argent)
-Create a Chinese state in the West Coast of the U.S. and Canada, extending all the way to Baja California, and another Chinese state in Northeast Australia.
-Create Vinland and Mueva Sefarad(homeland for Spanish and Portuguese Sephardic Jews in Greenland)
-Recreate Burgundy
-Give the Scots Nova Scotia and South Island, and the Irish should be given Newfoundland and North Island(whole).
-Create a homeland for the Ulster Scots in the South, as well as a Silesio-Venedic state in the Mid-Atlantic, with a Burgundian state in the Northeast.
-Create nation in Northeastern Brazil, populated by people of the former Mali Empire

[ZomgK3tchup]

Creating Bohemia

Make Aragon into an independent state

Create a Chinese state on the West Coast of the U.S. and Canada

Create Vinland

Recreate Burgundy

Oh hai thar.

In all seriousness...

IMO, there should still be at least one or two dominant powers in the world. I'm no sociologist, but all roads in history lead to someone leading the way to modernization. Or, of course, failing miserably, and sending the world into another Dark Age. In our timeline, that would be Britain. Had Britain not been top dog, France would've taken its place. A hundred years prior, that position belonged to Spain, and a hundred years before that, China. Before that, the Arabs. Etc. Etc. Throughout history, there's almost always been SOMEONE that's leagues ahead of the rest of the world, leading and innovating with cutting edge technology.

[Seek75]

Will there still be an American Civil War?

And since there was never a Napoleon, does the Dutch Republic still exist?

[Gloa]

Oh hai thar.

In all seriousness...

IMO, there should still be at least one or two dominant powers in the world. I'm no sociologist, but all roads in history lead to someone leading the way to modernization. Or, of course, failing miserably, and sending the world into another Dark Age. In our timeline, that would be Britain. Had Britain not been top dog, France would've taken its place. A hundred years prior, that position belonged to Spain, and a hundred years before that, China. Before that, the Arabs. Etc. Etc. Throughout history, there's almost always been SOMEONE that's leagues ahead of the rest of the world, leading and innovating with cutting edge technology.

Hmm... just from looking at the map, maybe these nations could lead:

Britain is still in a good position to lead, with some of India, Canada, and its solid European territorial setup.
Russia is also a possible leading power, although it still has to race to the Pacific and has a rather problematic set of neighbors. Getting Asia Minor, and thus ports in the Med. would give it a major boost in terms of prestige and power in the West.
It sounds like Scandinavia is a little more together and free at the beginning - maybe they collectively lead the world (but at home they still aren't sure about uniting).
Prussia also might be there, with its earlier colonial streak. Maybe a less isolationist USA?

Will there still be an American Civil War?

Frynomon mentioned a few posts up that he's thinking of a possible South-North OR West-East Civil War, and a way to avoid a breakup (but at a cost). So, definitely a civil war of some kind.

[Frymonmon]

Right now, Napoleon never existed, there was no great French Conquest of Europe, but this also means that the USA's territory that was bought from France was actually won in War. England and the USA forged an alliance, where the USA would occupy the French/Spanish possessions in America (This would explain the USA positions in Cuba and the Caribbean). While England would take Northern France. The Dutch Republic still exists, and Belgium is something I'm still wondering what to do with.

The USCW will be determined from what the player (or AI) of the USA does right at the game start. If they focus on the West, colonizing and taking cores from Indian states, there will be a North-South War. If the USA tries to focus on the South, improving railroads, literacy, lowering CON, industrialization, everything would go fine. Only this time, the Western states (Will be a loose definition of the west so they can have SOME soldiers) will secede. However, if the USA goes to the West with Manifest Destiny, and triggers a series of events, they can abolish the American Democracy for the Southern Democratic Autocracy which will rule the nation in perpetuity. This would see the fall of the American Power.

Russia, while going to be racing towards the pacific, is going to be quite engaged in European affairs. The Russian Bear could wake up earlier to become a slumbering, Major Power.

[Seek75]

Perhaps distribute Belgium amongst the Dutch and the French? Netherlands gets Flanders, France gets Wallonia?

[Gloa]

Right now, Napoleon never existed, there was no great French Conquest of Europe, but this also means that the USA's territory that was bought from France was actually won in War. England and the USA forged an alliance, where the USA would occupy the French/Spanish possessions in America (This would explain the USA positions in Cuba and the Caribbean). While England would take Northern France. The Dutch Republic still exists, and Belgium is something I'm still wondering what to do with.

Hmm, what caused the U.S.-British coziness (and U.S.-French breakup, apparently)? Maybe Britain became a republic or something?

The USCW will be determined from what the player (or AI) of the USA does right at the game start. If they focus on the West, colonizing and taking cores from Indian states, there will be a North-South War. If the USA tries to focus on the South, improving railroads, literacy, lowering CON, industrialization, everything would go fine. Only this time, the Western states (Will be a loose definition of the west so they can have SOME soldiers) will secede. However, if the USA goes to the West with Manifest Destiny, and triggers a series of events, they can abolish the American Democracy for the Southern Democratic Autocracy which will rule the nation in perpetuity. This would see the fall of the American Power.

Maybe give the Western states some potential allies with Native tribes, so that these native tribes would join the fight (in a confederation to form their own security from the growing U.S. even if it didn't really try to secure its cores that much).
- Maybe we could get a Deseret of sorts for the Mormons - but not in the Utah area? Maybe with the lack of Mexican settlement or even much Spanish exploration in the area, they could get part of California. They'd be another factor in a West-East war, if not properly absorbed and maybe fought with beforehand.
- Maybe have some communes break off during the height of socialism, if certain reforms aren't passed. They'd be OPMs, but would be a vexation to the Union, and maybe would have some benefit to make them actually a problem (maybe they'd come at times of general rebellion or war).

[Frymonmon]

Perhaps distribute Belgium amongst the Dutch and the French? Netherlands gets Flanders, France gets Wallonia?

Well. Belgium was part of Austria when France stomped on it the first time. But without Napoleon, there was no Belgium stomping. I think, however, I can see Belgium being added to the Dutch Republic, supported by Austria.

Hmm, what caused the U.S.-British coziness (and U.S.-French breakup, apparently)? Maybe Britain became a republic or something?

In this timeline, the War of 1812 never happened. US-British relations improved due to diplomatic ties and Britain stopped impression sailors into the Royal Navy. Both countries colonized the West together, which never created any real conflict. The French, however, proved to be much less supportive. In this TL, they would have constantly harassed the Americans to pay the War Debts, even going as far as raiding American forts in the Northwest. They continued to impress sailors into the French Navy. As it goes, the USA allied with Britain during the 1800 War against France, and that's where the colonies all lie in 1836.

Maybe give the Western states some potential allies with Native tribes, so that these native tribes would join the fight (in a confederation to form their own security from the growing U.S. even if it didn't really try to secure its cores that much).
- Maybe we could get a Deseret of sorts for the Mormons - but not in the Utah area? Maybe with the lack of Mexican settlement or even much Spanish exploration in the area, they could get part of California. They'd be another factor in a West-East war, if not properly absorbed and maybe fought with beforehand.
- Maybe have some communes break off during the height of socialism, if certain reforms aren't passed. They'd be OPMs, but would be a vexation to the Union, and maybe would have some benefit to make them actually a problem (maybe they'd come at times of general rebellion or war).

I like the idea of a Native American confederation to ally with the West or to generally fight the Union.

Deseret, controlling Southern California and Northern Mexico would work. Come Manifest Destiny, the USA would get cores on the modern USA parts of Deseret, while the Brandenburgians would have cores on Modern-Day Mexico.

Regarding Socialism, I think and event in which several large cities break away from the Union to create a Socialist Confederation (If enough people support socialism) or a few States that overwhelmingly support socialism break away, like you said.

In other news;

New Brandenburg:

[Hibernian]

If you're interested in some Alternative North American history, try this site: Balkanized North America. I created a few of those countries in VIC2 for mod I was working on (now abandoned because I didn't have enough knowledge to make it work out correctly), like Florida (a Seminole-Black free state fighting against White Imperialism and Slavery) and Louisiana (former French colony, now independent).

[SchwarzKatze]

Brief setup according to Gloa, havn't made a QNG tag yet

[Gloa]

Brief setup according to Gloa, havn't made a QNG tag yet

Maybe give Manchuria part of Inner Mongolia, but definitely not the whole thing. I think most of Mongolia + Xinjiang + Ningxia should go into another yellow colored state called Western Chinese Territories or something. Most of the Chinese territories in the south of Manchuria would become the QNG tag.

So:
Qing: QNG (yellow)
Sattelites: Manchuria (MCK - blue as in vanilla), South China (SCH? CHN? CHS? - yellow), West China (WCT? WCH? CCH? - yellow), Tibet (TIB - blue as in vanilla).

New Dynasty China: CHI (red), or keep South China as CHI and name the New Dynasty tag HAN or something based off their dynasty name.

(or have the Qing and their satellites a light blue, and CHI China a yellow).

In the revolution, South China would tag switch to the New Dynasty China. QNG would stay the same, but lose territory (to the New Dynasty tag). West Chinese Territories would tag switch to Central Asian Republic or would break up* into Mongolia, Xinjiang, and Qinghai-Gansu (Ningxia or whatever we call it).
Tibet would break vassalship during the war, and would part ways from the Qing after that (but they'd start out in the war against the New Dynasty). Manchuria would break vassalship if it Westernized.

Once you get to the Eastern section of the Ningxia Clique, you're hardly in Central Asia anymore, so the Central Asian republic might not get that. Instead, that would be the Western Chinese Territories (but would swiftly break off as Qinghai-Gansu, but a much smaller one stuck between the major powers and probably with New Dynasty cores on it).

*The player would be able to jump ship from Western Chinese Territories into any of the revolter states when they broke off (it would say "Mongolia declares independence!" then give a chance to play as them or keep playing as the WCT. Then Xinjiang breaks off and it gives the same choice. Once you only have one left, you don't have the choice. You just become that nation).

In this timeline, the War of 1812 never happened. US-British relations improved due to diplomatic ties and Britain stopped impression sailors into the Royal Navy. Both countries colonized the West together, which never created any real conflict. The French, however, proved to be much less supportive. In this TL, they would have constantly harassed the Americans to pay the War Debts, even going as far as raiding American forts in the Northwest. They continued to impress sailors into the French Navy. As it goes, the USA allied with Britain during the 1800 War against France, and that's where the colonies all lie in 1836.

Makes sense.

What about Spanish Florida? Did the U.S. acquire it the normal way, or did they acquire it straight from Britain (Spain not regaining it after the Revolutionary War), or did they fight with Spain over it, or should we just give it over to Spain or Britain (but with events pressuring them to give it to the U.S. - maybe even with the possibility of a war to spice things up)?

Or maybe the Spanish never settled it and it was German settled or French to begin with?

Deseret, controlling Southern California and Northern Mexico would work. Come Manifest Destiny, the USA would get cores on the modern USA parts of Deseret, while the Brandenburgians would have cores on Modern-Day Mexico.

When would Deseret form? Did the Mormons leave the U.S. earlier (they settled Utah in around 1847), or do we add it as an event chain partway through?

Regarding Socialism, I think and event in which several large cities break away from the Union to create a Socialist Confederation (If enough people support socialism) or a few States that overwhelmingly support socialism break away, like you said.

Hmm, maybe we could also give the small enclaves some good defensive generals to help them survive - even as large cities I don't think a Socialist Confederation would be any challenge to the U.S. army (since they basically need just a couple provinces to be occupied entirely). Maybe we could give them Roosevelt, heh.

So maybe Manhatten Commune, New England Commune (using New England's tags but just popping up in big-city provinces in New England), and Pacific Commune (in San Francisco, Seattle, LA)? [maybe a southern one for New Orleans or something, and maybe something for Chicago area] It would just require the U.S. to be somewhat slow in social reforms and a certain level of socialist support in those provinces. MIL and war exhaustion especially would increase the likelihood of breakoff, to try to trigger it during war or rebellion.

If there was a certain level of socialist support and MIL/CON/general dissatisfaction in the neighboring states, the Communes could get cores there, or even absorb some of the land (Manhatten Commune could take New York, etc.). If several existed, they could form the Socialist Confederation (with the strongest of them as leader). Maybe some other nearby states could also form the Socialist Confederation with them if they were socialist already - Texas, an independent Cuba, Quebec, Canada, etc. if those were free and Prolet. Dictatorships.

In other news;

New Brandenburg:

Nice.

By the way, which areas need new naming (i.e. they were settled and discovered by different language groups)?

- The Guyanas/Venezuela/Caribbean area, with various European names.
- New Brandenburg, German (looks like you've got most of that).
- Inner-North-America with more Native American names, maybe?
- Deseret.
- In general, American named California/New Mexico/Arizona/etc.?
- Dutch Philippines.
- More Celtic styled names in Ireland and its colonies?

[Frymonmon]

In this TL, Mormonism formed earlier than OTL. Mormons in this TL came from New York City in the 1790s, and were rejected. They all moved to the Pacific and established Deseret.

Spanish Florida was gained by War with Spain. During the English-French war Spain sided with France and this led the United States to invade all French/Spanish possessions.

Guyana/Venezuela/Caribbean are going to get total name overhauls.

New Brandeburg just needs to finish the sea names.

For the rest, I'm going to leave it as is for right now. Instead of Spanish-themed names in the Southwestern US, I'm using German-themed names. I say that Germany sent small expeditions Northwards but never fully settled it.

[Ethan194]

English-French war this maid me lol which number is this!

[Frymonmon]

English-French war this maid me lol which number is this!

One too many. There will be many more as France tries to capture their land back.

Here is a new, updated map for the Main Scenario. (Still Unfinished)



(Link)

Yet to do:
North American Nations
China
South America
Much More

[Gloa]

Looking good so far.

- Maybe Russia should start out with the land around the Caspian, and that one empty Northern province in the middle of nowhere (the second just so that someone else won't snatch them up and make it look odd as happens in Vanilla far too often). This would help them focus on the great Race to the Pacific. Maybe give them some of the Central Asian territories too (maybe have some CAR cores there, which they give up if they release the Central Asian Republic [which we really should get a better name for]).

- I like the splintered Philippines. Maybe have an event/decision chain for a coastal Asian GP to challenge European control of it in a bogus Congress of Asia. European countries can assent, giving positive relations with the Asian GP but giving up their Filipino lands into the Philippines (which would be set in the sphere of the Asian GP), or refuse, souring relations (and giving free people cb's, perhaps). It could cost prestige, relations, and infamy for an Asian GP to start these events.

- I'm not so sure we should have a Dutch Kamchatka. It might unbalance colonization there, especially since the Dutch are pretty dominant in the area to begin with.

[Reqinald]

2 questions for Frymonmon.

What is the demonym for those of New Brandenburg? Brandenian?

And, out of curiosity, is it possible you could post a full list of the renamed Mexican provinces?

[SchwarzKatze]

China now:


Qing & its pitiful cores:



A small discovery is that twice were an Russian DoW on Xinjiang and Gansu attempt to ally China on day 1, but no DoW on Mongolia even with the vanilla long borders

[Frymonmon]

Looking good so far.

- Maybe Russia should start out with the land around the Caspian, and that one empty Northern province in the middle of nowhere (the second just so that someone else won't snatch them up and make it look odd as happens in Vanilla far too often). This would help them focus on the great Race to the Pacific. Maybe give them some of the Central Asian territories too (maybe have some CAR cores there, which they give up if they release the Central Asian Republic [which we really should get a better name for]).

- I like the splintered Philippines. Maybe have an event/decision chain for a coastal Asian GP to challenge European control of it in a bogus Congress of Asia. European countries can assent, giving positive relations with the Asian GP but giving up their Filipino lands into the Philippines (which would be set in the sphere of the Asian GP), or refuse, souring relations (and giving free people cb's, perhaps). It could cost prestige, relations, and infamy for an Asian GP to start these events.

- I'm not so sure we should have a Dutch Kamchatka. It might unbalance colonization there, especially since the Dutch are pretty dominant in the area to begin with.

- Russia's territory is still not fully done. I am going to extend them more Southward, as well as reduce their eastern territories just a bit more. I was thinking of Russia cutting into China a bit. For the CAR, how about "Balkhash Republic" and give it cores around the Balkhash lake and into China.

- I like the idea of an Asian GP being able able to free the Philippines. However, there should be three paths. Direct Annexation, Release them from the European Powers, or Fight for them.

- I gave the Dutch Kamchatka because I am still not done dismantling Indonesia, I figured I would give them that part of Russia to both compensate and solidify Dutch control of the Pacific. If Russia were to want this, there will be an event "Ruler of the East" or something, which gives Russia their modern-day cores.

2 questions for Frymonmon.

What is the demonym for those of New Brandenburg? Brandenian?

And, out of curiosity, is it possible you could post a full list of the renamed Mexican provinces?

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SchwarzKatze -

I am liking how China is going so far. I would be interested to know if Russia sends a DoW on Xinjiang on day one, given its borders are severely neutered.

[HabemusZlatan]

1 - Hmm, shouldn't the Greek State have the Pontus (southern black sea coast until Trabzon) instead of Russia?

2 - I guess that light blue blobblish thing in Italy is Venice - and the green one is Naples, Two Sicilies, Sicily or what?

3 - I had this weird idea of making southern Italy some kind of Greek satellite - Don't know if it would be balanced but it would made Greece more entertain to play, at least to me since I'm obsessed by greeks. Name would be Grecìa or something, culture would be Griko. (it actually exists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people). Territory would be made of Calabria, Southern Puglia and Basilicata.

4 - Are the greeks still obsessed by the idea of reforming the Byzantine Empire or they are content with their holdings (i.e. cores in Serbia and Bulgaria)? Is this partition a consequence of the Turkish - Russian war or is this situation caused by the Ottomans never being succesfull?

And that's it for now.