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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
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DieMuecke said:
Is there a way to unite China ? Or break free as one of the puppet states properly ?
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As the Chinese Empire, you'll get an event to unite all of the puppets with sufficient relations after you westernize. I don't think breaking free permanently is possible.

Lwantssugar said:
why is it that the Anexation of a primitive or Uncivilized nation costs so much in infamy? I can understand if say the Ottomans tried to anex Austria but why would Great Britian especially get so uppity about me conquering some Indonesian kingdom?
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10 infamy is better than 20; if you get Nationalism and Imperialism, you can annex countries with 4 or less states with Establish Protectorate (otherwise it's one state max).
 
How exactly does prestige work in Vic2? Playing EU3, prestige is a fairly simple mechanic to understand. Does researching the prestige techs increase my prestige permantly? And what is "shared" prestige?
 
Umega said:
How exactly does prestige work in Vic2? Playing EU3, prestige is a fairly simple mechanic to understand. Does researching the prestige techs increase my prestige permantly? And what is "shared" prestige?
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If you lose a war, prestige will go down.

Prestige techs give a bonus to prestige earned. 20% gain turns a gain of 5 into a gain of 6.

Prestige inventions give the maximum amount to the first discoverer, half that to the second discoverer 1/3 to the third etc. So if you are third to discover an invention worth 15, and have a 20% bonus from tech, your prestige goes up by 6.
 
I'm having some trouble understanding the combat model. Specifically, when and why do my troops get annihilated. I've read some of the material and recognize that you can't use the same strategies you can in Victoria I or EUII, because your troops will automatically be destroyed if they lose a battle inside enemy territory in Vic II. So no sense sending troops ahead to try and take the enemy capital, it's too risky to even send them one square ahead of your other troops. If you do, enemy stacks will appear out of nowhere and destroy it.

No sense in capturing territory until you've destroyed all the enemy stacks. That means you have to let them come to you and fight on your own territory, or your stacks will get wiped out.

And to defeat the enemy you need to destroy his stacks. That means you have to somehow lure the enemy into a trap, then if you can manage to do that, quickly place troops in the surrounding squares so he can't retreat. And hope more enemy stacks don't appear to destroy those little armies you have surrounding that battle. I get that.

I just started a game as Japan and don't understand why when I invaded Korea, my armies were immediately destroyed even though I was following the rules so that wouldn't happen. I landed 3 armies in one coastal Korean province, and after moving one of them into an adjacent province, the Korean army was trapped between the sea, China, and my armies. It had nowhere to go. So I went back to get more troops to bring over and annihilate that stack. Except before I could do that, it attacked the 2 armies I had left in the coastal province, defeated them, and they disappeared! Why? The 3rd army was in an adjacent province, and was not fighting, so my defeated troops should have retreated there.

I don't understand why my armies were annihilated. The rules are: you can retreat into an enemy province if you have your own troops there. In other words, as long as your troops have safe passage into another province and are not completely surrounded, they can retreat if they're defeated and won't disappear. You do not need to control the province for them to be able to safely retreat. Is that how the game works, or not?

Is it because the troops were irregulars? Is it because I need to discover a tech which allows troops to retreat? Is it a bug? Or did I do something wrong?
 
I just started a game as Japan and don't understand why when I invaded Korea, my armies were immediately destroyed even though I was following the rules so that wouldn't happen. I landed 3 armies in one coastal Korean province, and after moving one of them into an adjacent province, the Korean army was trapped between the sea, China, and my armies. It had nowhere to go. So I went back to get more troops to bring over and annihilate that stack. Except before I could do that, it attacked the 2 armies I had left in the coastal province, defeated them, and they disappeared! Why? The 3rd army was in an adjacent province, and was not fighting, so my defeated troops should have retreated there.

I don't understand why my armies were annihilated. The rules are: you can retreat into an enemy province if you have your own troops there. In other words, as long as your troops have safe passage into another province and are not completely surrounded, they can retreat if they're defeated and won't disappear. You do not need to control the province for them to be able to safely retreat. Is that how the game works, or not?

Is it because the troops were irregulars? Is it because I need to discover a tech which allows troops to retreat? Is it a bug? Or did I do something wrong?
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Sometimes if your morale/org is too low they will be annihilated anyway. I would imagine that this is to represent the situation that your troops were far too broken. Or perhaps they had 0 supply, which may have caused that as well.

When did you invade Korea? Was this right at the start of the game? If so I'd recommend waiting until you've westernized and gained a tech advantage. Once you do you'll find that the Korean troops will stand no chance against your higher tech and better trained armies (make sure to research techs giving you better Tactics as this can make a huge difference in battle).

Also, you'll find that if you're civilized and Korea is not, they are unlikely to attack your armies, even with numerical superiority (this is not a golden rule but the AI gets frightened by civilized troops - they'll only attack with a huge number disparity). That will allow you to occupy much of the peninsula while the Korean troops hover cautiously around Seoul.
 
Alyosha said:
Sometimes if your morale/org is too low they will be annihilated anyway. I would imagine that this is to represent the situation that your troops were far too broken. Or perhaps they had 0 supply, which may have caused that as well.

When did you invade Korea? Was this right at the start of the game? If so I'd recommend waiting until you've westernized and gained a tech advantage. Once you do you'll find that the Korean troops will stand no chance against your higher tech and better trained armies (make sure to research techs giving you better Tactics as this can make a huge difference in battle).

Also, you'll find that if you're civilized and Korea is not, they are unlikely to attack your armies, even with numerical superiority (this is not a golden rule but the AI gets frightened by civilized troops - they'll only attack with a huge number disparity). That will allow you to occupy much of the peninsula while the Korean troops hover cautiously around Seoul.
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Their morale and organization was 100% when I dropped them off; the battle lasted for a couple of seconds - I didn't even have a chance to look. I'll reload and start the war again to see if their org and morale dropped to 0 during that brief battle, against Korean irregulars. Somehow I doubt it.

It was in 1840. I did it then because I was following the instructions in the Wiki http://www.paradoxian.org/vicky2wiki/Japan
The Wiki says it's no problem to invade Korea while Japan is uncivilized, and you should do it early because it actually helps you civilize earlier. It's so you can get prestige and so you can already have Korea when Japan civilizes, and the Infamy will have decreased by then so you can go take over another country. My Infamy is 0 and it's a waste of 20 years to have 0 Infamy when I could annex Korea and then 15-20 years later have 0 Infamy again. 15-20 years is a big chunk of the game.

EDIT...
Ok, I did it over and you were probably right, their numbers and morale went down really fast, like from 3000 down to 0 after 3 or 4 days. One of the armies retreated like it was supposed to. Another one got completely destroyed because it had 0 manpower, 0 organization, 0 morale.

I'm using some irregulars and some normal troops. The normal troops don't seem to fight noticeably better than the irregulars.

The Koreans seem to have better military tech than Japan, I don't know which one(s).

So I'm unable to surround them to destroy their stacks since I'm losing half these battles and even when I win, at the current rate, it would take years for some of these to regain their full strength. One went up from 27 to 50-something in a month. It's supposed to be 3000 of course. And I can't buy enough goods to build all the troops I need even though I have plenty of money. Looks like the Wiki was way off.
 
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EUnderhill said:
So long as the effective tax rate is the same is there any difference between high tax at low efficiency or low tax at high efficiency?
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Yes.
The 'normal' tax is how your people feel it, while the effective tax is how much money you get.
Basically, you charge your people 70% taxes, but a part of the revenue is lost by collecting and administering (maybe also by some Bureaucrats stealing some money). What's left, is what you get, called effective tax.
 
shierholzer said:
Yes.
The 'normal' tax is how your people feel it, while the effective tax is how much money you get.
Basically, you charge your people 70% taxes, but a part of the revenue is lost by collecting and administering (maybe also by some Bureaucrats stealing some money). What's left, is what you get, called effective tax.
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Is that working? It doesn't appear in the tooltip - same with plurality effects on militancy.
 
doublezero said:
Their morale and organization was 100% when I dropped them off; the battle lasted for a couple of seconds - I didn't even have a chance to look. I'll reload and start the war again to see if their org and morale dropped to 0 during that brief battle, against Korean irregulars. Somehow I doubt it.

It was in 1840. I did it then because I was following the instructions in the Wiki http://www.paradoxian.org/vicky2wiki/Japan
The Wiki says it's no problem to invade Korea while Japan is uncivilized, and you should do it early because it actually helps you civilize earlier. It's so you can get prestige and so you can already have Korea when Japan civilizes, and the Infamy will have decreased by then so you can go take over another country. My Infamy is 0 and it's a waste of 20 years to have 0 Infamy when I could annex Korea and then 15-20 years later have 0 Infamy again. 15-20 years is a big chunk of the game.

EDIT...
Ok, I did it over and you were probably right, their numbers and morale went down really fast, like from 3000 down to 0 after 3 or 4 days. One of the armies retreated like it was supposed to. Another one got completely destroyed because it had 0 manpower, 0 organization, 0 morale.

I'm using some irregulars and some normal troops. The normal troops don't seem to fight noticeably better than the irregulars.

The Koreans seem to have better military tech than Japan, I don't know which one(s).

So I'm unable to surround them to destroy their stacks since I'm losing half these battles and even when I win, at the current rate, it would take years for some of these to regain their full strength. One went up from 27 to 50-something in a month. It's supposed to be 3000 of course. And I can't buy enough goods to build all the troops I need even though I have plenty of money. Looks like the Wiki was way off.
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Take military improvement with your first westernization points.
Sea around Korea can be used to your advantage. Lure some Koreans away with one ship +unit, while you siege with others, or double time on some poor lonesome enemy stack.
Defend.. just having 1 unit less can be enough to convince the AI to attack, then just reinforce after battle has started. Use good generals.

But you are right about the wiki. That is clearly written for pre-AHD V2. It was much easier when Korea wasn't puppet of China.

If it doesn't work, take a look at the usual suspects intead: Johore, Dai Nam...
 
magitsu said:
Take military improvement with your first westernization points.
Sea around Korea can be used to your advantage. Lure some Koreans away with one ship +unit, while you siege with others, or double time on some poor lonesome enemy stack.
Defend.. just having 1 unit less can be enough to convince the AI to attack, then just reinforce after battle has started. Use good generals.

But you are right about the wiki. That is clearly written for pre-AHD V2. It was much easier when Korea wasn't puppet of China.

If it doesn't work, take a look at the usual suspects intead: Johore, Dai Nam...
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I have pre-AHD V2, version 1.4. So Korea isn't a Chinese puppet and you can conquer it right away, IF you know what you're doing, and how to use troops, which I didn't. I thought it would be a good idea to take it before it got sphered by a GP. After building a ton of more troops and discovering a couple of Army techs I was able to do it easily, without losing any battles. The prestige from conquering Korea allowed Japan to become Civilized in 1854 - I don't know how long I would have remained uncivilized without it.

Except then I noticed that when you're a GP you're allowed to conquer uncivs for only 8 Infamy by 'Establishing Protectorate' which is a lot cheaper than the 20 Infamy I got from doing it as an unciv. So if there was a better way to get prestige, as an unciv, that early in the game, I could have put it off until later. But by then Korea would probably have been in a sphere or had Friendly relations with one or more GPs which would have made attacking them, suicidal...
 
EUnderhill said:
Is that working? It doesn't appear in the tooltip - same with plurality effects on militancy.
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No, that's wrong. There is no difference. Effective tax is what you take and what you get.

What shierholzer said is how it logically should work probably, but in game it doesn't work that way. At the beginning, even if you take 100% from your pops (effective tax would be, let's say, 20%) your pops will still buy things which wouldn't be possible if you're taking 100% of their income from them.
 
doublezero said:
Except then I noticed that when you're a GP you're allowed to conquer uncivs for only 8 Infamy by 'Establishing Protectorate' which is a lot cheaper than the 20 Infamy I got from doing it as an unciv. So if there was a better way to get prestige, as an unciv, that early in the game, I could have put it off until later. But by then Korea would probably have been in a sphere or had Friendly relations with one or more GPs which would have made attacking them, suicidal...
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Yes. In vanilla V2 humiliate gives best bang for the buck if you are trying to get prestige for westernization. Always add humiliate when you annex, 100% war score is enough.
The other thing to remember is that everything you have when you westernize become states (factories!) after you westernize. This is why 20 infamy Korea still pays off. But some crappier places can stay forever as RGO colonies, so leave them later for civ 8 infamy protectorate.

One other way to help westernizing is to build man of wars (applies for example to Siam). Enable the buying of clippers / artillery only for the duration which materials for building one is needed (crippling cost if you try to fund them indefinately, especially at war). This way you can build some no-upkeep navy with some of the poorest countries. 0% upkeep navy can still win one battle, and they block straits as well as fully funded one (this way I captured Java from Netherlands as Johore).
 
magitsu said:
Yes. In vanilla V2 humiliate gives best bang for the buck if you are trying to get prestige for westernization. Always add humiliate when you annex, 100% war score is enough.
The other thing to remember is that everything you have when you westernize become states (factories!) after you westernize. This is why 20 infamy Korea still pays off. But some crappier places can stay forever as RGO colonies, so leave them later for civ 8 infamy protectorate.

One other way to help westernizing is to build man of wars (applies for example to Siam). Enable the buying of clippers / artillery only for the duration which materials for building one is needed (crippling cost if you try to fund them indefinately, especially at war). This way you can build some no-upkeep navy with some of the poorest countries. 0% upkeep navy can still win one battle, and they block straits as well as fully funded one (this way I captured Java from Netherlands as Johore).
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So if you add 'Humiliate' on top of 'Annex', you'll get both? I assume since 'Annex' requires 100 Warscore, adding 'Humiliate' would require another 50 Warscore but you can only get 100 max.

Cool, an unciv defeating the Netherlands...
 
doublezero said:
So if you add 'Humiliate' on top of 'Annex', you'll get both? I assume since 'Annex' requires 100 Warscore, adding 'Humiliate' would require another 50 Warscore but you can only get 100 max.

Cool, an unciv defeating the Netherlands...
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I think you can get both.

Also, I've seen Sokoto defeating France... 4 times
 
What is the easiest and fastiest way to westernise as China?Do you annex your puppets once you westernise?
 
videonfan said:
What is the easiest and fastiest way to westernise as China?Do you annex your puppets once you westernise?
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1. Forget about fast. Keep doing absolutely nothing much except accumulating research points. Try to get yourself into a sphere by increasing relations with GP's. (GB and US are good spheremasters) Say yes to all westernization effects. Also forget about literacy. There are repetive events which cull out your most militant pops, which also happen to be your most literate, so your literacy will drop once the westernization events will start (I ended up with 3.2%). Better spend the budget on administration instead of education. Accumulate RP's and pick the reforms which give you most civ% per RP spent. Being in sphere may reduce cost of reforms based on spheremasters tech school. Expect westernization to be complete by 1890-1900

2. Once you westernize, you automatically annex all substates, but not puppets (tibet&korea).
 
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