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Thread: Tora! Tora! Tora! A Japanese Multiplayer AAR

  1. #41
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    Aug 24th 1939 Sept 1 1939

    Far East

    As I feared, the assault on Shaoyang failed. I should have waited until my units had recuperated after the last battle before I launched another attack. But waiting one and a half to two months after each battle to sufficiently reorganize is always frustrating. On the plus side, I was fairly confident that Japan didn't need to fear a surprise attack from the Allies in the near future.

    Europe and Africa


    When Germany made the deal with the Allies I concluded that I was the most logical target for France and Britain. Saving China and squashing Japan would have gone a long way to furthering the Allied cause. But I think the Allies were taken aback by the success of Barbarossa. Fear of German success probably motivated the Allied attack.

    Comintern diplomacy no doubt played a part. Pedal was rather... irate with the Allies after they had vetoed China's surrender and then abandoned Poland to give Lobo an avenue to attack Russia. Consequently he tasked me with contacting the Allies. After Germany mauled the Soviet Union I sent a PM to the Allies detailing the carnage on the Eastern front and how hopeless the situation was for Russia. In fact, I over exaggerated the difficulties Russia was facing in the hopes that the would motivate the Allies to act against Germany.

    And act they did:



    France locked up the Rhur and advanced deeper into Germany. They were only two provinces away from bordering Berlin.

    Spain, a member of the Axis, was bypassed and there appeared to be no fighting in or around Iberia.

    Italy was likewise weakened up the Allied attack but not to the extent of Germany. The Italian Empire, however, fared less well. The British rapidly advanced into Libya and Ethiopia.

    The Eastern Front was still fluid but Soviet resistance was stiffening considerably. Unfortunately once Leningrad fell the Red Navy had no port in the Baltic. It had been forced to sea and the ships and sailors were slowly dying.

    Bulgaria had also seized Istanbul from Communist Turkey.

    The only real good news for the Soviets was that patriotic citizens under the brutal Nazi regime refused to stay subjugated. Germany lost numerous provinces on the eastern front when the partisans rose up.

    Iceland, which Germany also occupied after annexing Denmark was also completely lost. Rebels had seized back their lands and driven the Germans into the sea.

    September 1st to September 24th 1939

    Europe and Africa

    All was quiet on the Far Eastern front while the Imperial Japanese Army attempted to regain organization while occupying the pathetically low infrastructure Chinese provinces.

    Europe and Africa however were characterized by rapid change. While Italy itself still stood, the Italian African Empire was no more. Both Ethiopia and Libya had fallen making the British the true masters of the Dark Continent.

    In a surprise move, the French willingly withdrew from most of the occupied Germany provinces and retreated back to more defensible positions of the Maginot line. Germany was now free to retake most of their lost land, although they no longer had the opportunity to cut off and encircle the French army, which was undoubtedly the intention of the Allies. The French and British left only ashes in their wake. Lobo would have to spend many long months rebuilding the resources and ICs in the Rhur.





    The Soviet economy was even more dire:



    The Italians launched a surprise landing in Batum where there was no beach garrison. The Comintern assumed that Italy would try to drive for Baku to wreck the oil production even if they didn't plan to stay there permanently. The Soviets, though they had few troops in the region were determined to try to cut off the Italian Expeditionary force and destroy it.

    Soviet forces, at long last, were now in place across almost the entire front. No longer would Germany find easy victories by simply walking into empty territory. September was a historic month. Instead of merely defending the Soviets were now also attacking. Pedal successfully made inroads into the center of the Germany force. The march back to Moscow had begun.

    As you can see below, fighting the Soviets and the Allies at the same time is having an impact on the Axis. Added together, the losses Germany and Italy have taken are greater even than the losses China has suffered:



    Japan and Russia were gratified we were no longer facing an Axis and Allied coalition. The initial disaster and our diplomatic maneuvering had driven a wedge between Germany and the West. But the Comintern was also concerned- we had a very long way to march until we could reach Berlin. Although the Allies had seemingly retreated they had shown a willingness to initiate daring offensives. What if the Allies launched a second wave of attacks and got to Berlin before Russia? Germany would collapse, along with their Axis partners. Europe would belong to the Allies and we would once again find ourselves facing the Allies plus a now democratic Germany and Italy. We held no illusions about what the Allies would do to us if they could call upon the industrial resources of Central and Southern Europe.
    Last edited by Richard Nixon; 27-06-2011 at 13:26.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  2. #42
    Banned prodigiousbstrd's Avatar
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    Oh wow I just checked this a few hours ago and now it has a new update. Nice, and hello Nixon the best president ever.

  3. #43
    France looks smexy with its gains

  4. #44
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Eversor View Post
    France looks smexy with its gains
    I thought so too! I was very surprised when they gave it out without much of a fight. Of course, I couldn't see the battlefield in Europe so for all I knew there could have been a hundred units battle on each side. But after each MP session some of the players stick around on Gameranger chatting. Lobo told me that France had willingly withdrawn from the territory for the most part.

    Oh wow I just checked this a few hours ago and now it has a new update. Nice, and hello Nixon the best president ever.
    Thanks! Although some people might disagree with your assessment...

    The allies seem to have made the right decision, they don't want the axis getting too strong. Ought to be interesting to see when they attack the Comintern however.
    My God...that was bordering on treacherous.
    Wow, some strange and interesting decisions going on here. However, the inaction of France and Britain until this point looks now to be a masterstroke.
    The Axis failure to take down France and garrison Western Europe adequately was a critical error. It looks like they have left their western forces too weak and now will lose their most important IC regions.
    Do I smell an early end to Axis ambitions?
    I was surprised by how ruthlessly the Allies were playing the game. I actually expected France to occupy Berlin in the sessions I just AARed. If they attacked the Axis I thought they would only do so if they had sufficient force to knock either Germany or Italy out of the war. At that point in the game things were still up in the air so I supposed the Allies could have a lot more cards up their sleeve than they had yet revealed.

    So you will stop trying to encircle China? BTW, all that China affair is ussually more trouble for Japan, that it's worth.
    With the long retooling times the AoD rewards long term planning. At that point it would have hurt my military production to juggle things around too much. And besides I looked at the Allied intervention in Europe as a temporary reprieve. I was still almost positive they Allies had planned to attack me before they saw how successful Lobo had been during Barbarossa. Since the Allies were going to be occupied for at least the immediate future I decided to buckle down and really try to encircle China. My thinking at the time was that if I could cut off all avenues which the Allies could use to easily reinforce China it would make them hesitate to declare war since China would be effectively cut off from aid.

    That's why I attacked Shaoyang before I was fully ready. Attacking without full organization against a human Chinese player who knows his business isn't always the best idea. But I was trying to hurry the advance. I guess I paid for my impetuousness with a failed assault. But only in China where waiting one month instead of two months to reorganize can be called impetuous.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  5. #45
    Interesting stuff so far, can't wait to see what the next twist will be!

  6. #46
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    Very interesting, multiplayer AAR's are always so unpredictable

  7. #47
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    September 24th 1939 to October 21st 1939

    Far East

    Nothing to report.

    Europe



    France's staged withdrawal continues. I should note that the Nazi puppet Switzerland was utterly obliterated in the first wave after the Allies betrayed Germany. The puppet was destroyed but France still has to deal with a wider front, which is never to the advantage of the Allies.

    The Italian landings in Batum have expanded. As expected they sent forces towards Baku, but Russia now has enough in the region to contain them and push them back into the sea even if the units can't be totally destroyed like we originally hoped.



    The Drive to Moscow

    Soviet patriotism knows no bounds. The Red Army, under the direct command of Comrade Stalin took to the field of battle in the dead of winter and pressed ever onwards. The Germans fought with great tenacity and managed to blunt many Soviet thrusts. But the German victories were bought by spilling lives like water.



    Despite the horrendous cost in terms of German lives, the Red Army is practically at the gates of Moscow. And Germany can ill afford to sacrifice upwards of 70% of the strength of their units during each battle.

    It seemed like it was only a matter of time before the Soviet Union was once again master of all Eastern Europe. With the bloody battles on the Eastern Front still raging Germany no doubt had few forces to throw against the French and British.

    October 21st 1939 to November 27th 1939

    Far East


    Instead of attacking Shaoyang, Japan has shifted the focus to seizing Wuzhou. The Red Air Force and the Japanese Tactical Bombing arm saw constant action, bombing China's entrenched forces.



    Europe

    After pulling back form Germany it appeared that the Allies were going to finish off Spain before they unveiled their next major operations against the Axis. British forces in Gibraltar pushed north and seized parts of Southern Spain.

    The Italian landing site in Batum was squeezed even more. That front was now completely secure and the Italians had taken many losses.



    Eastern Front

    After meeting stiff resistance in Rybinsk Russia shifted the focus of their attack slightly to the South. Soviet forces seized Tula and then attacked Noginsk. Soon Moscow would be enveloped from the North and South and the Germans would be forces to stand their ground and risk encirclement or withdraw from the Russian capital.



    Iceland


    After many months of bloody fighting partisans in Iceland won their independence. The last Nazi occupation forces were rounded up and found themselves standing in front of a firing squad.

    Iceland declared independence from the Third Reich. The heroic liberators proclaimed a Leninist government.

    Russia and Japan decided to leave the Icelanders to bask in their independence and did not invite them into the larger fold of the Comintern. We felt that this would would be regarded with great suspicion by the Allies and we had no viable means to reinforce Iceland if the Allies decided to go to war with us.

    Last edited by Richard Nixon; 04-07-2011 at 13:44.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  8. #48
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Great AAR, full of unexpected moves and fierce fighting. I really like the fact that it's not just another classic WWII AAR. It's a pity that AOD is poor at representing politics, though, as some decisions such as JAP-SOV alliance or Allied reluctance to help Poland could have grave domestic repercussions. Sure, it's possible, but too easy without the consequences on the home front.

  9. #49
    Very cool, something surely has to give before to long?

    Germany really needs to land a knockout blow somewhere. Maybe trade space for time in Russia to allow a quick blitzkrieg in France or are the allies already too strong there?

    If things really start going backwards for Germany maybe the SU can afford to start transferring some units back to the Far East to help you out with China. Though that risks the allies getting too much of the spoils of Central and Eastern Europe if Germany collapses.

  10. #50
    The fun continues.
    It's strange, how weak was Italian landing force.

    Iceland has all German techs, I guess. So if I was a Soviet player, I would invite them to my Alliance, and trade all their tech.

  11. #51
    I'll be following this I love MP AARS.

    Could you possibly send me your naval composition? Japan is one of my favorite nations to play and naval composition interests me greatly.

  12. #52
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    Could you possibly send me your naval composition? Japan is one of my favorite nations to play and naval composition interests me greatly.
    Check your Inbox. I sent you a PM.

    It's strange, how weak was Italian landing force.

    Iceland has all German techs, I guess. So if I was a Soviet player, I would invite them to my Alliance, and trade all their tech.
    Ah, I wish we had thought of doing that. But as I said we were very worried that the Allies would regard that as a hostile move. Behind the scenes the Comintern was doing its best to win the diplomatic war and keep the Allies neutral until we solved the German problem and the China problem.

    Altogether I'd say the Italians probably landed a maximum of 12 to 15 units in Batum. I don't think the Soviets destroyed any of them but they all took very heavy damage.

    Very cool, something surely has to give before to long?
    I have no intention of spoiling the surprises yet in store...

    Great AAR, full of unexpected moves and fierce fighting. I really like the fact that it's not just another classic WWII AAR. It's a pity that AOD is poor at representing politics, though, as some decisions such as JAP-SOV alliance or Allied reluctance to help Poland could have grave domestic repercussions. Sure, it's possible, but too easy without the consequences on the home front.
    Tell me about it. Just once I'd like to actually fight World War Two. It isn't just the chainsaw diplomacy of the players either that are responsible for the current outcome. AoD is a very fun game but it poorly represents the economic and international constraints the major powers faced prior to the war. In a MP game there is almost no reason for Germany to accept offer the MR Pact. There is no reason for the SU to sell resources to Germany. There is no reason why the USA can't embargo Japan from day one or dump tons of free resources and supplies into every major Allied country.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  13. #53
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    November 27th 1939 to January 29th 1940

    Far East

    Due to some unforeseen game mechanic the AI controlling Sinkiang capitulated to the Soviet Union, surrendering all of their territory except their capital province. This opened up the back door of China. Such a favorable position, however, could only be exploited fully when Pedal could deploy troops from Europe back to Asia.



    I won the battle of Wuzhou. The battle lasted from November 19th to January 5th. My forces will once again need significant time to reorganize before I launch another battle.

    Europe

    Germany had effected significant repairs in their ravaged provinces and their ICs were once again on the rise. The German Reich was unable to push into France or to eject the Allies from Northwest Italy. Germany's failure to build up enough momentum to take on the both the Allies and the SU ensured that the days of Francisco Franco were numbered.

    The rain in Spain falls not just on the plains:



    Eastern Front



    The Italians were thrown back into the sea. Although no units were encircled and destroyed the Italians used the better part of their strength in their failed landings. The units that were withdrawn would no doubt require many months to reinforce before they got back to full strength.

    The Soviets bordered Moscow. And they were almost within sight of Kiev.

    The Axis were being steadily pushed back in the East and it seemed apparent that they didn't have enough strength to launch an offensive in the West. The Axis seemed to be caught between a hammer and an anvil.

    January 29th to April 29th 1940

    Far East

    A new assault was launched on Shaoyang. Near the end of March I had the victory in the bag. This time I had waited for my troops to reach full organization and my patience was paying dividends.

    Japan smashed through the Chinese defenses. My organization losses were comparatively light so once again I wagered new offensives. I hit multiple areas at the same time. Since Changde, Guiling, and two provinces on China's Southern coast were attacked. I won every battle and by the end of April I was on my way to occupying those provinces.

    (A note on the MP session: I won the battle of Shaoyang and then during the next session Hugo, the Chinese player, didn't show up. The Allies decided not to call the session and we proceeded anyway. If Hugo had been there I probably would not have been as successful. But, even as things stood I went very easy on the AI. I saw the opportunity to encircle and destroy 20-30 Chinese units along the coastline. Instead I simply attacked the province and forced them back, rather than destroying them completely).



    Western Europe

    The Rhine river now seemed to be a rough demarcation line between the Western Democracies and the totalitarian regions that span from Central Europe all the way to the Land of the Rising Sun.

    Spain fell in fairly short order. Rather than keeping the extra ICs from their conquests the Allies opted to create a friendly puppet government. Even the Allies had no use for the wild eyed revolutionaries of Republican Spain and they opted to instead have a government formed along more rightwing lines:



    Eastern Front

    Small and medium battles raged along the Eastern front. Not many provinces changed hands but the Soviets rushed new units into positions along the front. Soon everything would be in readiness for a number of major assaults.

    The new offensives took place before the end of April. Rather than proceed to Moscow which seemed heavily fortified, Pedal shifted the attack to the South which was weaker. Progress was made in the Ukraine and Pedal was one province away from Kiev.



    The Wages of Destruction

    Individual Losses



    Note how Germany has lost almost as many men as the SU. Note also how added together, the losses Germany and Italy have suffered may be regarded as truly catastrophic.

    Alliance Losses



    Losses Inflicted



    German's score is slightly less impressive if you figure in the fact that Germany took out a bunch of AI minors such as Poland, Denmark, and the Baltic States. All together those minors probably account for around 200k of the losses Germany inflicted.

    The real killing machines in the game are Japan and the Soviet Union.
    Last edited by Richard Nixon; 07-07-2011 at 16:43.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  14. #54
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Wow, the Soviet aircraft losses are light...

    The Allies probably puppeted Spain because they didn't want to be bothered with Iberia anymore. They want to focus on the Axis and the Axis seems to be on the losing side. The initial German successes were the result of the dispersion of Soviet troops. When the Soviets came in force, the Germans were stopped. The Italian navy took some beating, too, so the Med is secured. However, it is still unknown which side - the Allies or the Comintern - will play its cards better. Germany is an industrial powerhouse, so it will be interesting to watch the rush for Berlin.

  15. #55
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    Wow, the Soviet aircraft losses are light...

    The Allies probably puppeted Spain because they didn't want to be bothered with Iberia anymore. They want to focus on the Axis and the Axis seems to be on the losing side. The initial German successes were the result of the dispersion of Soviet troops. When the Soviets came in force, the Germans were stopped. The Italian navy took some beating, too, so the Med is secured. However, it is still unknown which side - the Allies or the Comintern - will play its cards better. Germany is an industrial powerhouse, so it will be interesting to watch the rush for Berlin.
    I should clarify about the light aircraft losses. The Luftwaffa and the Red Air Force really hadn't exchanged blows. When the Germans launched Barbarossa, the Red Air Force, like the Red Army was in the Far East. The SU's tactical bombers remained the in the Far East to help me with Japan (they'd have just been chewed up by the superior Axis air power) and the interceptors were deployed back to Europe. But Soviet airbases are small and the org penalty for rebasing from across the other end of the Asian landmass is large. By the time the Soviet Interceptors had regains enough organization to take to the air the Germans had probably transferred large parts of the Luftwaffa to the Western Front to stave off the Allies.

    The above analysis is what I've been able to piece together (remember, I was off in Asia while all this was happening) but the statistics screen seem to bear out my analysis. France and the UK were probably responsible for most of the Axis aircraft losses up to that point.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

  16. #56
    Excellent and different AAR so far. (Don't leave the Allies a foothold on the continent seems to be a good lesson so far )
    Will there be a continuation of the AAR if Germany collapses, with a fight over Europe between the Soviets and Allies? Can you give us your thoughts on Allied intentions in regard to this? Are you still anticipating you are next on the Allies hitlist?

  17. #57
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    Soon the Soviet capital will return to it's rightful owner: the communists!

  18. #58
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    So... how is it going?

  19. #59
    Amazing AAR - I gasped at each new mind blowing twist. I hope it will continue soon - Want to see Germany turning the tide or die trying.
    Something that always interested me (I have so far never played MP) how do you organise the session? I mean in terms of game speed setting - do you pause the game at all? What speed you play on?
    Last edited by Arowaner; 13-07-2011 at 03:06.

  20. #60
    First Lieutenant Richard Nixon's Avatar
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    Are you still anticipating you are next on the Allies hitlist?
    Yes.

    Soon the Soviet capital will return to it's rightful owner: the communists!


    So... how is it going?
    Allergies have prevented me from making much progress on the AAR. Expect a small update shortly, though.

    Something that always interested me (I have so far never played MP) how do you organise the session? I mean in terms of game speed setting - do you pause the game at all? What speed you play on?
    We don't generally use pause but there are times when some players use it, such as when they are organizing a large offensive.

    When we first start the session we usually start on very slow for a bit and then move up to slow. If a player is missing and an ally is forced to militarily control that nation and they have a lot to micromanage the game will usually remain on very slow.
    "People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." -Richard M. Nixon

    “The player is armed with a gun-most fortunately, because he is being assailed by a seemingly unending succession of hideous axe-wielding zombies… [T]he zombies have already knocked down and wounded several people, who are pleading pitiably for help; and one of the player's duties is to protect those unfortunates from renewed assaults by the zombies. His main task, however, is self-defense. Zombies are supernatural beings, therefore difficult to kill. Repeated shots are necessary to stop them as they rush headlong toward the player. He must not only be alert to the appearance of zombies from any quarter; he must be assiduous about reloading his gun periodically, lest he be overwhelmed by the rush of the zombies when his gun is empty.” American Amusement Machine Ass'n v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 C.A.7 (Ind.),2001.

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