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Thread: If The AI Was As Smart As WW2 Leaders

  1. #1
    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    If The AI Was As Smart As WW2 Leaders

    Ok all, we made a new AI that is just as smart as the real life WW2 leaders were. We did a test game to see how things went and here are some of the analysis of that test game.

    It's 1938 and looking at the production AI we see that the French and UK are building things like BB's and not CV's. They also seem to be ignoring the air forces and I can't believe the French divisions the AI is constructing. Why attach a tank brigade to three INF brigades? There is no CA bonus that way. Over in the SU their OOB is a real mess and units have like two brigades per division. Even Germany hasn't been researching the various techs fast enough.

    OK war started in 1939 and the French AI could easily attack the lightly defended German provinces but just sits there doing nothing. Why aren't the allied planes at least conducting bombing attacks? And the German AI took almost a month to defeat Poland? What's up with that? Why so long?

    Wow it's been 6 months and the AI on all sides has done absolutly NOTHING. What is the AI waiting for? And the AI is still doing a poor job in placing leaders in the chain of command.

    Finally, the AI does an attack but picks, Norway? The UK with its massive fleet utterly failed in stopping the German landings. Why are those CV's in the Med and elswhere when they should be in the North Sea? And the stupid AI let a CV get sunk cause it didn't launch its CAG's? UGH!

    The German AI attacks France and the Low Countries. For some reason the allied AI didn't even bother to station many troops in Luxembourg or northern France. They loaded up the Maginot Line and sent most of their troops into Belgium. Can you believe how stupid the allied AI was to get cut off like that. Why are those troops just sitting there in their forts when Paris is in danger?

    Well France fell and the German AI is trying to do an air war it seems. But it keeps changing targets or stopping. And the allied AI conducted a strat bombing and now the German AI uses all their TAC's to do strat bombing instead of going after ships in port or airfields. The German AI built a number of ships it seems but not enough, no CV's and then he sends them out in a two ship fleet to get sunk?

    Boy the UK AI is really poor so far in sinking those subs. And looks like lots of IC is being spent on convoys. Italian AI is getting its butt kicked in Africa and can't even fight the Greeks. Either the Italian AI doesn't research the right techs or they don't use enough troops in their fights. Maybe both.

    Ok the German AI is starting the war against the SU. But it left way too many troops in the west and in Norway. Whay can't the AI get Nat. Spain to join?

    So the SU AI can't defend thats for sure. It keeps getting its units destroyed. But the German AI keeps sending their units all over the map. Instead of just going for Moscow they send them south then north and back again. In the west the stupid allied AI tries to do an invasion. What a small invasion force. Why even bother?

    I see the Japaneese AI keeps way too many troops around the SU border when they have a non-agression pact with the SU. Why is that? And the allied AI can't even defend in Singapore. But the German AI pretty much stops their attack in the SU.

    Now the German AI moves almost all their forces to southern Russia and then lets them get destroyed in some city. The Axis minors just don't seem to cooperate very well and their forces are way behind in techs. Even in Africa the AI went back and forth on both sides 2 times before the Axis AI got killed due to not enough supply comvoys getting in.

    Now why did the Allied AI land in Sicily when all the ports in southern France and northern Italy were unoccupied? The German AI seems to be ignoring research in basic areas but is going for super heavy tanks, nukes and jets. Meanwhile the German AI does a last atack in the east against the most heavily defended area instead of elsewhere. And Japan isn't using their subs correctly while pretty much doing nothing against the US sub attacks. Not to mention they still can't defeat China and are bogged down.

    OK this was wierd. Even if it worked the allies did an invasion against the most defended area in France. The only reason it worked was because the German AI refused to reinforce the units fighting when they had 2 or 3 panzer divisions just sitting in France. On the East both sides are fighting an attrition war while Germany wastes units in Greece, Norway and other places. Why not use the Axis minors to defend there and the better teched German units on the front lines?

    Well it's pretty much over now. The Japs threw away their fleet in dumb battles and never did press their early victories into India or Australia not to mention ever researching any more air techs or doctrines. The Italians left their fleet in port to get bombed and was so bad they couldn't even defeat Greece or Yougoslavia.

    The Germans after starting good made many poor decisions on what to build, what to research and how to fight. They launched dumb attacks and never coordinated with their axis minors. They kept transferring units all over the place and even sent tons of units to Africa after that fight was already lost. Not to mention leaving panzers stationary near Paris while the allies were invading.

    The UK and France couldn't defend if their life depended on it and won because the Germans did worse in attacking after an initial good spell. Eventually the UK stopped the subs but that was due to getting some tech and the Germans not building more subs. The US took forever (2+ years) to actually do something in the war. And when they did they landed in places like Morraco where there weren't any German troops anyway. They did do lots of strat bombing but kept hitting the same places over and over.

    Finally the SU had a mess of an OOB and took forever to fix it. Not to mention being really dumb in the defense at the start. They got lucky that the Germans kept shifting their attacks and then refused to leave a surrounded city or two.

    Bottom line is both AI's were so poor neither side could claim they won. The besst these AI's can claim is they lost less often than the other sides AI did.
    My mom always told me to be nicer. She said that I could catch more flies with sugar than vinegar. But I always found that a big pile of dog poop worked best.

  2. #2
    Ironically enough, over half the AI blunders you mention actually occurred in reality...


    ... awkwaaaard ...

  3. #3
    I.C.E. Devildread's Avatar
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    Hahaha excellent!

    I wish I had you as history teacher when I was a kid!

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    Ruler of Somewhere else Thandros's Avatar
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    If I'm reading this right everything you said actually happened maybe a little over the top here and their but most of it is true except calling those French ports undefended. If that was what happened in your game then I'd be surprised this AI was even capable of Invading Norway.

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    First Lieutenant Caezaire's Avatar
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    Am I reading this correctly in saying that the AI is actually smarter than many of the real life leaders and thus, we shouldn't complain too much? Either way, very funny.

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    General Ricox's Avatar
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    Superheavy tanks? Jets? Nukes? Sounds pretty much what Germany tried to do in the last years of the war.

    EDIT: Whatevah, I get it.
    Last edited by Ricox; 25-05-2011 at 14:34.

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    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    I forgot to mention that the allied AI was attacking in Italy. But it was going nowhere. So it did an invasion up the coast. But after landing the troops they just stayed there not moving. I mean there weren't any German troops around and Rome was completely empty. The allied AI stood in place until the Germans arrived to actually form a defensive line.

    And did I mention the German production AI spent lots of IC building V1 rockets instead of interceptors. They were gettingg killed by the allied planes but instead of building planes they built rockets. This was almost as bad as the German AI building SH tanks when their fuel supply was near zero. Very few AT units were built as the AI really liked those heavy and SH tanks.
    My mom always told me to be nicer. She said that I could catch more flies with sugar than vinegar. But I always found that a big pile of dog poop worked best.

  8. #8
    i found your post a huge laugh ....

    for anyone who can't read between the lines , he's describing WWII play by play via HOI 3 game mechianics LOL ...

  9. #9
    Convicted Drive-by Poster Pro_Consul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jju_57 View Post
    And did I mention the German production AI spent lots of IC building V1 rockets instead of interceptors. They were gettingg killed by the allied planes but instead of building planes they built rockets. This was almost as bad as the German AI building SH tanks when their fuel supply was near zero. Very few AT units were built as the AI really liked those heavy and SH tanks.
    Again, very nice. These are stupid things that actually happened in the war. Germany was still building rockets even as their cities were being strat-bombed on a daily basis. They were still working on heavier and heavier tank designs even as their fuel supplies were dwindling to near zero. The 88 dual purpose gun was probably the most successful AT/AA gun of the war, but the Germans still kept building crappier models and far less useful things like SH tanks.

    Now your criticism of the invasion AI is also spot on, but out of character with the irony. Nobody in WWII that I know of ever under-committed to a bridgehead or beachhead that way.
    An Englishman thinks a hundred miles is a long way. An American thinks a hundred years is a long time. I am beginning to think a hundred dollars is a lot of money. Two of these facts are interesting. All of them are revealing. But only one of them is truly pathetic.

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    Lt. General Alpha Zeke's Avatar
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    Is this really a play by play of WW2? If so, bravo.

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    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    I seem to recall an invasion in France in 1942. A canadian division of about two regiments landed and were unsupported. The allied AI failed to provide the coordinated air support and the landings were a complete defeat. I'm not sure but maybe the AI was just conducting a 'raid' and not a real sea invasion.
    My mom always told me to be nicer. She said that I could catch more flies with sugar than vinegar. But I always found that a big pile of dog poop worked best.

  12. #12
    Citizen G'Kar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrwrong View Post
    for anyone who can't read between the lines , he's describing WWII play by play via HOI 3 game mechianics LOL ...
    This.

    Typing in all capital letters went out of style with FORTRAN.

  13. #13
    Oh damn....

    I totally got schooled

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jju_57 View Post
    In the west the stupid allied AI tries to do an invasion. What a small invasion force. Why even bother?
    actually the Dieppe raid was literally meant to be just that: a raid to hit the Germans and keep them thinking about Britain, nab som prisoners and then run away (in planning at least.) It was the largest raid conducted (many much smaller raids occured using commandos and small units to hit some unimportant targets but alot failed), and the most costly. Planning was absolutely dreadful, as was the logistics of it. In fact, the raid was more to see what would be needed to actually launch an invasion. The lessons, clearly, was that alot more planning and deception was necessary.

  15. #15
    Usually i dont post in this forum, but i really have to reply to this.

    I can feeel your pain in this, i have played this game before and also gotten bad results.
    But never ever anything as ahistorical as this, the germans moving forces between south and north, the japs not using their navy correctly and the french never leaving the maginot line! Unheard of!

    Who ever programmed this far fetched AI is obviously incompetent since this never could happen for real.

  16. #16
    Second Lieutenant
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    I agree, this game has very big potential, but it needs a new or complete rework of the engine it runs on, so new stuff can be added bringing the game much closer to the reality. Atm it's far away from reality.
    The AI is different story, actually i don't know why it's called "Intelligence", because i didn't see the AI doing something intelligent. I think that one of the hardest things in gaming industry is to create proper AI and I respect all developers trying to improve the AI because i know it's not an easy task. I think it will take some time to develop a real AI for the games which will be able to think as human ( atleast close to that). Ofcourse outside of Single Player the AI isn't much of a problem, but most of the HoI players play Single Player mode i guess.

    After fixing AI and bringing the game much closer to reality than it is, it will be one of the best grand strategy games ever. But that may take years.

  17. #17
    Colonel MajorMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jju_57 View Post
    I seem to recall an invasion in France in 1942. A canadian division of about two regiments landed and were unsupported. The allied AI failed to provide the coordinated air support and the landings were a complete defeat. I'm not sure but maybe the AI was just conducting a 'raid' and not a real sea invasion.
    Its a bug I keep getting. The AI thinks it can supply anything through a level one port, and its disapointing to see it trying to supply three divisions through a damaged level 1 port.

    But congrats on the most historical HoI 3 game ever.
    Machtergreifung at the nation of Paradoxia on NationStates.

  18. #18
    General krieger11b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fewrfreyut View Post
    actually the Dieppe raid was literally meant to be just that: a raid to hit the Germans and keep them thinking about Britain, nab som prisoners and then run away (in planning at least.) It was the largest raid conducted (many much smaller raids occured using commandos and small units to hit some unimportant targets but alot failed), and the most costly. Planning was absolutely dreadful, as was the logistics of it. In fact, the raid was more to see what would be needed to actually launch an invasion. The lessons, clearly, was that alot more planning and deception was necessary.
    The Dieppe raid I think was the most cold hearted thing the UK ever did to their own troops. Knowingly planning a raid they pretty much knew was doomed to get critical information to do a real invasion like you said. Perhaps without Dieppe the Allies would have done something really stupid, like the highly favored Calais invasion for D-Day, that would have been one hell of a bloody mess since that had the largest concentration of men, forts and AA on the entire coast of France. It did however offer a large port with a very short supply line between Dover and Calais. If they pulled it off, it would have ended the war quicker. If it failed, and very well might have, it would have been a total disaster for the Western Allies.

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    You forgot about gamey exploits the AI used. I mean, tanks attacking through the forests in 1940? Huge pockets in the East? Invisibility trick performed by the JAP AI on the USA in 1941 (BTW they attacked without a DOW - this needs fixing)?

    This game is clearly unbalanced.

  20. #20
    Colonel shepherd352's Avatar
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    Well written jju_57! Yes the AI does some crazy stuff nut we ignore all the crazy stuff that really happened.

    The AI needs more work but I think it is evolution, not revolution. I would like to see lower AI (such as Army) better at defending in low supply situations (not just letting units go to zero ORG and get destroyed) and it should be possible to leave the AI defending an occupied region. When a partisan appears, the AI should not drag units from everywhere to deal with it but leave garrisons in ports and send one or two close mobile forces only.

    We seem to be after a perfect AI, operationg at all levels. People point to how well a human can control an invasion in-game but they ignore how badly humans did in real life.

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