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Thread: [MiniMod] Great Wars for Victoria 2

  1. #21
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    - Maybe the Great War cb should only be available if a GP is already involved in a war (the relations thing might already take care of that, I guess, though)? It seems to me that in both the actual WWI and the other events around it which almost triggered the whole great war thing, the war didn't start as a GP deciding they should destroy another GP. I don't think that in that political climate such an act would be done. Instead, the Great War and other wars spiraled out of control from smaller disputes.
    The relations need to be -100 or less, so the countries have to be pretty set against each other to invoke it. Really I didn't make it war-only to encourage the AI to use it, but if people are seeing too many Great Wars I can always change it.

    It would be nice if alliance blocks could form before the wars, but I'm guessing the AI would just drop them (even if it was right before a war).
    Maybe a series of events that would pop up around that time* that would raise the relations of enemies of enemies to each other, and lower the relations between a GP and the friends of their enemy.
    That's included in the "Enemy of my Enemy" events. It still doesn't guarantee a country will live up to its alliance, but I've improved the chances by increasing relations, decreasing relations with the enemy and even adding some influence for non-GP's.

    It would be nice if it was possible to get a country to join an existing war via script, though.

    Perhaps a couple new nations named "Mandate" (or other similar names) which would be given cores on any overseas lands of defeated GPs which couldn't be released in other ways (such as core-less swaths of Africa for when it's not with mods which have specific state cores there).
    No need. Overseas territories without cores are doled out to the victors, with preference given to great powers.

    It could be a more complex system, perhaps, but the entire thing is already pretty complex.

  2. #22
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    Is it possible to write in an event that unifies Poland and Krakow if the former is released Austria/Germany/Russia?
    I'd rather not include events that don't relate directly to the Great War itself. New Nations Mod already has a unification event for Poland & Krakow, and PDM will be getting it shortly. The only other thing I might change is including a non-existing union country's territory in the lands released... so Krakow could potentially receive Poland's territory, for instance.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I'd rather not include events that don't relate directly to the Great War itself. New Nations Mod already has a unification event for Poland & Krakow, and PDM will be getting it shortly. The only other thing I might change is including a non-existing union country's territory in the lands released... so Krakow could potentially receive Poland's territory, for instance.
    I only bring it up because the most likely scenario is that one of the three will lose a Great War and both Poland and Krakow will exist simultaneously.

    Speaking of which, do you have anything if a nation falls into rebellion during a Great War like Russia did?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    Speaking of which, do you have anything if a nation falls into rebellion during a Great War like Russia did?
    A country with a high percentage of occupied territory-- whether it be by enemies or rebels-- will lose its beneficial country modifier much more quickly. Other than that, no-- is there something you'd like to see?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    A country with a high percentage of occupied territory-- whether it be by enemies or rebels-- will lose its beneficial country modifier much more quickly. Other than that, no-- is there something you'd like to see?
    In our world, Russia withdrew a year before the war ended. Is it possible that if rebels occupy a capital that an event will fire to withdraw the country from the war and is then treated as if it lost?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    In our world, Russia withdrew a year before the war ended. Is it possible that if rebels occupy a capital that an event will fire to withdraw the country from the war and is then treated as if it lost?
    Unfortunately, no. The "end_war" command does work, but it cancels the war outright without creating a truce, and there's no way to create a truce by command. Not to mention that a player invading a country might be quite surprised to see his war simply ended.

    Having the modifiers be eliminated when there's a lot of rebel activity, however, means the war exhaustion will climb much more quickly, and the chance that a country will pull out of a war likewise much higher.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ZomgK3tchup View Post
    In our world, Russia withdrew a year before the war ended. Is it possible that if rebels occupy a capital that an event will fire to withdraw the country from the war and is then treated as if it lost?
    Russia withdrew by signing a peace treaty and all, though (rather than just withdrawing, it had to accept several wargoals against it). I think war exhaustion can take care of this the way Rylock describes. Rebels overthrow the government, lose positive modifiers that keep war exhaustion from skyrocketing. They continue the war because they want to keep their aid and all* and militancy keeps rising too, Communist rebels overthrow the government again. By now war exhaustion is huge, and ideological differences mean the Russians have low relations with the other allies**. Also, more land has probably been lost and the war isn't going well. The Russian government appeals for White Peace a billion times (these AI's - you can have their entire empire conquered but the small area around their capital, their great armies wiped out, and a hundred thousand men sitting around the emperor's palace and they have the audacity to say "hey chap, why don't we just declare this a draw?'), but eventually lets Germany use its Acquire State wargoals.

    *Could this be modeled by event? If a country has a high war exhaustion, it can Appeal for Aid (decision? or can events tell when an ally has high war exhaustion, thus negating the need for the weary country to start the chain?). Their richer (or less occupied? less warscore against them?) allies would then have the chance to Send Aid. A large economic cut, but some prestige gain or something, and a large reduction of war exhaustion for the aided country.

    **Is this already modeled well enough in game?

    Some more mostly-crazy-ideas:
    Blockade decisions if you're able to totally blockade a nation (similar to the Anaconda Plan decision for the U.S.)?
    Submarine blockades for (use against) nations whose capitals are on an island? Maybe based on a tech or invention or something? It could increase infamy slowly, but also increase war exhaustion in the targeted country.

    It would be really nice if we could model Zimmerman Telegrams and other similar slips of secret diplomacy and espionage of the time (and the whole "is America in the war now?" kind of stuff). Maybe periodic events for GPs not in the war, based partially on the actions of the nations in a war, which would sway sympathies one way or another.

    - Whenever a nation occupied a territory, there would be a small chance of getting an event of War Crimes. An option to keep quiet about it might raise a small bit of CON, but would reduce the chances of a peaceful GP hearing about it (which would again just have a small chance of happening).
    - Submarine warfare, if implemented, or blockades in general could have an event chain:
    -- Blockader: Unrestricted Naval Warfare? War exhaustion rises in the enemy if they do this, or maybe a prestige loss if they back down from the plan.
    -- If they choose to enforce this, peaceful GPs would occasionally get events: Peaceful Ship Sunk! Which would lower relations with the blockader.
    - If a GP wasn't at war with another GP in a great war, but had low relations, the GP in the great war could secretly look for allies against them (look for enemies of enemies, basically - instead of allying, it would just boost relations between the Enemy-of-Enemy and the GP in the war, while dropping relations between the Enemy-of-Enemy and the peaceful GP). Maybe it would also set a country flag or something so that if the peaceful GP got into the war, the GP which started in the war would know to call this old friend again.
    -- Of course, if they do look for allies, there can be embarrassing Intercepted Telegrams and other such fumbles which would give cb's against the GP which tried to do the shady stuff.

    Is there a League of Nations in the game already? If not, could we add an event chain for it? Basically, if there is a Great War victor who is a Democracy and a GP, they can use a decision to suggest the idea. Their allies and other more liberal nation types could join it then. Other nations would have a decision to join it (which would be harder to enact, maybe less benefits from it, but anyone could use it). Large army funding reduction like the Geneva Convention. Increase of relations between all those who join the league (to begin with, at least - if you wanted to go really into depth, the thing could fall apart later). Maybe some war exhaustion removal or prestige or something? It doesn't have to be a really complex alliance system (since... well, it wasn't), but more of a temporary peace encouraging measure and pacifist influence after a Great War.
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  8. #28
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    *Could this be modeled by event? If a country has a high war exhaustion, it can Appeal for Aid (decision? or can events tell when an ally has high war exhaustion, thus negating the need for the weary country to start the chain?). Their richer (or less occupied? less warscore against them?) allies would then have the chance to Send Aid. A large economic cut, but some prestige gain or something, and a large reduction of war exhaustion for the aided country.
    It'd be nice if the AI used the diplomatic function already in the game which supports another country's armies-- but as it stands, only the player can do that. As for helping another country out, I could perhaps arrange an event where a wealthy ally gives them money. I'm not sure how useful it would be, though.

    **Is this already modeled well enough in game?
    Ideological differences? No, it's not modeled at all.

    Blockade decisions if you're able to totally blockade a nation (similar to the Anaconda Plan decision for the U.S.)?
    Difficult to implement unless you know the exact nation tags involved, or unless the nations involved are neighbors. I could put in an event on the nation being blockaded, however, as opposed to a decision originating from the blockader.

    Submarine blockades for (use against) nations whose capitals are on an island? Maybe based on a tech or invention or something? It could increase infamy slowly, but also increase war exhaustion in the targeted country.
    Are there even submarines?

    It would be really nice if we could model Zimmerman Telegrams and other similar slips of secret diplomacy and espionage of the time (and the whole "is America in the war now?" kind of stuff). Maybe periodic events for GPs not in the war, based partially on the actions of the nations in a war, which would sway sympathies one way or another.
    Sway sympathies in what way? Just relations with other countries?

    Whenever a nation occupied a territory, there would be a small chance of getting an event of War Crimes. An option to keep quiet about it might raise a small bit of CON, but would reduce the chances of a peaceful GP hearing about it (which would again just have a small chance of happening).
    - Submarine warfare, if implemented, or blockades in general could have an event chain:
    -- Blockader: Unrestricted Naval Warfare? War exhaustion rises in the enemy if they do this, or maybe a prestige loss if they back down from the plan.
    -- If they choose to enforce this, peaceful GPs would occasionally get events: Peaceful Ship Sunk! Which would lower relations with the blockader.
    While interesting, it seems to be trying to model submarine warfare by event when really it should be part of naval combat-- which is lacking in Victoria 2, yes, but I'm not sure I want to try and do it all by events when a country might not even have much of a navy.

    If a GP wasn't at war with another GP in a great war, but had low relations, the GP in the great war could secretly look for allies against them (look for enemies of enemies, basically - instead of allying, it would just boost relations between the Enemy-of-Enemy and the GP in the war, while dropping relations between the Enemy-of-Enemy and the peaceful GP). Maybe it would also set a country flag or something so that if the peaceful GP got into the war, the GP which started in the war would know to call this old friend again.
    The first part I could do, though it's already handled by the "Enemy of my Enemy" event chain. The second part I can't-- if I'm only using one flag, it can't be re-used for multiple countries as there'd be no way to figure out who was who's ally.

    Is there a League of Nations in the game already? If not, could we add an event chain for it? Basically, if there is a Great War victor who is a Democracy and a GP, they can use a decision to suggest the idea. Their allies and other more liberal nation types could join it then. Other nations would have a decision to join it (which would be harder to enact, maybe less benefits from it, but anyone could use it). Large army funding reduction like the Geneva Convention. Increase of relations between all those who join the league (to begin with, at least - if you wanted to go really into depth, the thing could fall apart later). Maybe some war exhaustion removal or prestige or something? It doesn't have to be a really complex alliance system (since... well, it wasn't), but more of a temporary peace encouraging measure and pacifist influence after a Great War.
    That might be interesting. I don't know how much it actually needs to encourage peace, however... it wasn't like the real League of Nations did much in that respect.

  9. #29
    Submarines exist in the invention file, but are commented out. Given that there's no way to make them 'special', they're rather redundant unless an expansion gives us more options for the navy.
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  10. #30
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    The link to the download isnt working.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by flame7926 View Post
    The link to the download isnt working.
    That's odd. I'm away from my home computer at the moment-- I'll fix the link as soon as I get home this afternoon.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    It'd be nice if the AI used the diplomatic function already in the game which supports another country's armies-- but as it stands, only the player can do that. As for helping another country out, I could perhaps arrange an event where a wealthy ally gives them money. I'm not sure how useful it would be, though.
    Only the player can use the function at all, or the AI just won't use it at all? It would be nice if the AI could use it, though. AI seems rather bad at supporting other nations aside from just intervening in wars and such.
    Anyway, I think the major aid programs were a bit more major than the monetary aid function, and it would be nice to see countries trying to prop each other up more (it could give money and also improve relations and lower war exhaustion in the country some - thus making it more likely for the nation in distress to stay in the war).


    Difficult to implement unless you know the exact nation tags involved, or unless the nations involved are neighbors. I could put in an event on the nation being blockaded, however, as opposed to a decision originating from the blockader.
    Yeah, that might work - but the AI probably wouldn't know what to do with it, so maybe just stick with the effects of blockades just normally and hope that models it well enough.


    Are there even submarines?
    I don't think so, which is a pity. Maybe an invention (added to one of the naval techs) which would allow a decision to Pursue a Submarine Program which would cost a lot of money over some years. If the decision was taken, an event Submarine Program would pop up after awhile, putting up a country flag which would allow another decision: Unrestricted Submarine Warfare (which would only be usable in war, and which would increase war exhaustion in the enemy maybe - maybe at the cost of infamy or events which might bring other nations into the war). The decisions could require a certain number of (certain level) ports, other naval techs, military power, GP status, tech research school, etc. so that only nations which had a good naval presence could use it.

    Sway sympathies in what way? Just relations with other countries?
    That seems to be the main way we can influence other nations towards one side or the other. Even if relations themselves wouldn't make a nation jump in to help, it could be a way to trigger events which could set up alliances and push countries into the war.

    (So if say Germany and Britain are in a Great War, some events pop up for the neutral U.S. and the U.S. sides mostly with Britain, downplaying events which would hurt Britain-U.S. relations and increase German-U.S. relations, getting riled up by the events which hurt German-U.S. relations and increase Britain-U.S. relations, and siding with Britain on events which let the U.S. choose... This increases the CON of Germans in America and encourages Pro-Military sentiments, but also pushes the U.S. towards high relations with Britain and allies and low ones with Germany and allies. An event pops up: Intercepted Telegram! and gives the option for This Means War which (either directly, or by setting up a country flag that helps trigger another event, depending on which is easier to mod) allies the U.S. with Britain. Britain then has events which lets it pull in the U.S. (through the various means you set up to trick the Call Ally function to be used). If they don't take the option, there's still a big relations drop and probably a MIL or CON spike. Another option rolls by with Unrestricted Submarine Warfare! - again with the choice of This Means War. Then Peaceful Ship Sunk! etc. etc.

    By setting it by relations, it doesn't matter why the neutral GP is unhappy with Germany and friendly with Britain - whether
    - They just get more bad events with Germany (perhaps radio tech and other high level inventions would help a country in a great war smear its enemy, intercept and code break secret diplomacy, etc.)
    - They decided to side with Britain: Supply Aid to Britain (triggered by moderately high relations with a GP at war, and a similar political system [so Communist-Communist OR Democracy-Democracy OR Constitutional Monarchy, OR Absolute Monarchy-Absolute Monarchy OR Prussian Constitutionalism, etc.]), Peace Negotiations [option: Favor Britain], etc.
    - They used Improve Relations with Britain and Decrease Relations with Germany, gave War Subsidies, etc. because they were the Player and wanted to be in that war.
    - They already had bad relations with Germany (maybe from the German Colonial War for Alaska) and good relations with Britain. )

    In any Great War, there should definitely be a lot of interaction with any "neutral" GP and maybe even regional Secondary Powers. Attempts to mediate peace (which would be very unlikely to work, especially if the power chose to Favor [One Side]), reactions to atrocities in war, submarine warfare, dipomatic incidents, intercepted secret diplomacy, secret agents (for example, an event to support propaganda in newspapers in a neutral GP - a relations increase with that GP... but also a chance of that GP getting an event with Propaganda Conspiracy Revealed! which would greatly lower relations), even sabotage (increasing war exhaustion in the target GP to make them weaker if they do fight, and less likely to want to fight, but also having a high chance of being revealed).

    While interesting, it seems to be trying to model submarine warfare by event when really it should be part of naval combat-- which is lacking in Victoria 2, yes, but I'm not sure I want to try and do it all by events when a country might not even have much of a navy.
    Yeah, but I'm not sure how we'd model submarine warfare with naval combat. They don't react like other types of ships (preferably they would not engage in combat with other ships, but would still set up blockades - if you had enough of submarine enforced blockades, you could declare Unrestricted Submarine Warfare by event/decision - maybe have a tech which could invent ships which could fight submarines... but then we need a lot more naval combat stuff and maybe even more airplane stuff).

    That might be interesting. I don't know how much it actually needs to encourage peace, however... it wasn't like the real League of Nations did much in that respect.
    Yeah, the LoN didn't really do that much there. Maybe just have a military spending reduction, prestige increase, war exhaustion decrease, and a small relations boost - better yet, could we set up truces without wars? That would be handy, to spread truces between all the nations, although it might have bad effects. Maybe just have bad modifiers to most wargoals if you're in the League of Nations (or just an event if you're in the League of Nations and at war, which lowers prestige or increases infamy with League of Nations disapproval). You could also Leave the League at any time, with some negative effects (but less negative than if you just waged war like mad).

    Maybe have some events which would break up the League or Solidify it more (with the possibility of it actually becoming more powerful and influential, cutting down military spending even more and other peace dealing things), with the members deciding what to do.

    If a member state was attacked, perhaps with an Enemy of my Enemy kind of event they could ask all countries that had the country flag indicating they were still in the LoN to support them (which would bring up the event in all those countries to either Ally with them and help them fight, bringing them into the war the same way they're brought into Great Wars, to Support them Financially (monetary transfer), or to ignore them).
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  13. #33
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    Okay, the link on the original post has been fixed. Sorry about that.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gloa View Post
    Only the player can use the function at all, or the AI just won't use it at all?
    If the AI can use it, I've never seen them do so. Perhaps they do. Either way, it's nothing we can prompt with an event.

    it would be nice to see countries trying to prop each other up more (it could give money and also improve relations and lower war exhaustion in the country some - thus making it more likely for the nation in distress to stay in the war).
    I'll see if I can add something like that.

    I don't think so, which is a pity. Maybe an invention (added to one of the naval techs) which would allow a decision to Pursue a Submarine Program which would cost a lot of money over some years.
    To be honest, that seems like something that I'd prefer not to model with events-- particularly since you would never actually get submarines.

    That seems to be the main way we can influence other nations towards one side or the other. Even if relations themselves wouldn't make a nation jump in to help, it could be a way to trigger events which could set up alliances and push countries into the war.
    Maybe. Unless there were a lot of events happening, however, or the changes in relations were quite large, it's unlikely to affect the course of the war. I might implement something that affects relations with neutral GP's, but I'd want to keep it fairly simple.

    Yeah, the LoN didn't really do that much there. Maybe just have a military spending reduction, prestige increase, war exhaustion decrease, and a small relations boost - better yet, could we set up truces without wars?
    No, truces can't be created by command.

    That would be handy, to spread truces between all the nations, although it might have bad effects. Maybe just have bad modifiers to most wargoals if you're in the League of Nations (or just an event if you're in the League of Nations and at war, which lowers prestige or increases infamy with League of Nations disapproval). You could also Leave the League at any time, with some negative effects (but less negative than if you just waged war like mad).
    I can't change wargoals that way, not without creating an entirely new set of wargoals. I could add infamy for countries at war, however... the problem being that I can't detect who the aggressor in a war is. I can only detect that two countries are at war. So in this case I'd end up punishing both. So anything that required the event to try and figure out who was being attacked would be pretty fruitless.

  15. #35
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    So, I just did a great war with Germany, against Belgium, and later France. Everything went well, but there was only one modifier throughout the war, though that might be because I updated versions for an already started game, or because the war only lasted a year. The goal that I had was a great war against Belgium, but I didnt gain any of their colonies. I only gained French colonies, even though my only wargoal against them was cut down to size. I gained the French colonies that were states, but not anything from Belgium. Maybe that was beacuse I made a separate peace with Belgium. Here are screenshots from before and after the war of Africa. It got split up between all my allies, so it looks very strange.

    Before

    After

    The Gray in Africa is me, and this is with PDM
    The other green is italy, the red is canada, the brownish is Japan, and the orange is the Netherlands. you can see that the Belgians didn't loose any land.

    And right now, im in a war with the UK, but im not war leader, so i cant call my allies in. I think everyone should be able to call their alies in.
    Last edited by flame7926; 25-05-2011 at 09:48.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by flame7926 View Post
    So, I just did a great war with Germany, against Belgium, and later France. Everything went well, but there was only one modifier throughout the war, though that might be because I updated versions for an already started game, or because the war only lasted a year. The goal that I had was a great war against Belgium, but I didnt gain any of their colonies. I only gained French colonies, even though my only wargoal against them was cut down to size. I gained the French colonies that were states, but not anything from Belgium. Maybe that was beacuse I made a separate peace with Belgium. Here are screenshots from before and after the war of Africa. It got split up between all my allies, so it looks very strange.
    France would be forced into a treaty because it ended disarmed-- "Cut Down to Size" works just as well as the "Great War CB" in this case (and they both require the same warscore), so the only difference between them is how the war begins. As for Belgium, if you didn't enforce the Great War CB with them, then they didn't end the war disarmed and thus won't be dismantled. I'm assuming that's what you meant by "separate peace", yes?

    I'll take a look at the colony hand-out-- clearly I need to make Africa a special case and have it based on states-only and not provinces there, as large tracts of land do seem to make it look messy. Any chance you have a save game you can post, prior to the break-up? It'll make fixes a bit easier to test.

    Thanks for the screenshots.

  17. #37
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    No, I enforced Great War on them and some other goals the netherlands had added, after adding the cut down to size on France.

  18. #38
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    And when exactly do you want the save game from?

  19. #39
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flame7926 View Post
    No, I enforced Great War on them and some other goals the netherlands had added, after adding the cut down to size on France.
    Hmm. Was Belgium perhaps a minor power? As in not a GP and not a secondary power?

  20. #40
    Benevolent Imperialist flame7926's Avatar
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    They fell from Great Power Status the day after I made the treaty with them.

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