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Thread: Opposing Munich agreement as UK

  1. #1

    Opposing Munich agreement as UK

    In my 1938 start I wanted to spice things up a bit by opposing Hitler taking the Sudentenland in 1938, thinking this would trigger conflict early. What's happened is that Czechoslovakia joined the allies but just France is at war with Germany and Italy.

    I don't see how this makes sense. Hitler's threat to invade Czechoslovakia if he didn't get his way is one of the main reasons of the Munich agreement. I know France wanted to take a stronger line with Hitler over this but I cannot imagine a scenario where France would have been prepared to go to war with Germany without Britain, which is why France relented over Munich.

    Even if that were the case, surely Czechoslovakia would be at war with Germany too? I could have sworn in an earlier version of the game the Allies as a whole would be at war with Germany over this. Is this working as designed or am I missing something?

  2. #2
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    While what you write is true I think this is working as intended. I'm no expert at reading scripts, but the Treaty of Munich includes this

    #######################
    # The Treaty of Munich #
    ########################

    # United Kingdom decides.
    country_event = {

    id = 1210

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1210"
    desc = "EVTDESC1210"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
    ai_chance = { factor = 100 }

    name = "EVTOPTA1210" # Peace in our Time
    neutrality = -5
    relation = { who = GER value = -25 }
    social_conservative = {
    organisation = 25
    popularity = 25
    }

    CZE = { country_event = 1201 }
    }
    option = {

    ai_chance = { factor = 0 }

    name = "EVTOPTB1210" # Oppose Agreement
    USA = { neutrality = 20 }
    AST = { neutrality = 20 }
    CAN = { neutrality = 20 }
    NZL = { neutrality = 20 }
    SAF = { neutrality = 20 }
    national_unity = -20
    threat = { who = all value = 10 }
    FRA = { country_event = 1211 }
    CZE = { join_faction = allies }
    }

    }

    country_event = {

    id = 1211

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1211"
    desc = "EVTDESC1211"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
    name = "EVTOPTA1211" # France will Fight
    neutrality = -10
    national_unity = 10
    relation = { who = CZE value = 20 }
    FRA = { war = { target = GER } }
    }

    }
    In bold you will note only France gets the war target. While the allies probably should go to war, it appears the devs wanted to let France twist in the wind.

  3. #3
    What irritates me about this is that I thought the defining principle of the Allies was "one for all, all for one", so there would always be UK involved once France is, even on offensive wars. Apparently, I was wrong.

  4. #4
    Ah okay, so the script may be working as intended but I still think the script probably should be different. Never mind, Germany couldn't help itself and invaded Denmark so I was able to declare war with its increased threat.

  5. #5
    That, or guarantee the independence of countries that are soon to be attacked....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunstickuncle View Post
    What irritates me about this is that I thought the defining principle of the Allies was "one for all, all for one"....
    Ask a Pole about that. They were certainly underwhelmed by the amount of support they got from UK and France after joining the Allies. But in the context of UK and France standing with each other (as opposed to with certain other Allies) you make a fair point. IMO that decision is kind of bass ackwards. France and the UK were pretty much on the same page with Munich, except that France was less eager to appease Hitler. So why indeed would UK's moving closer to France's position of non-appeasement suddenly result in the UK abandoning France? To my thinking the only way that should happen is if France chose to oppose the Munich Agreement while the UK chose appeasement, not the other way around. In the OP's situation, if there is to be a split in the Allies, then it should be UK at war with Germany while France sits it out.
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  7. #7
    The decision to guarantee Poland was seen as lunacy to some in the know, like Churchill. Britain couldn't guarantee their independence and everyone knew it.

    Chamberlain overcompensated. Austria, the Rhineland, and Munich were all different crises. The incompetence of him and his foreign minister peaked when they guaranteed Poland.

  8. #8
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    Can't you DoW Germany seperately? If UK, as faction leader, goes to war, I think the rest of the Allies will have to join you. You might be sinking your relations with USA in the process, though.
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  9. #9
    You can do that if your neutrality is low enough. But usually British neutrality is higher than (25+German threat) in 1938.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunstickuncle View Post
    You can do that if your neutrality is low enough. But usually British neutrality is higher than (25+German threat) in 1938.
    Increase threat on Germany. This, along with an inevitable rise in German armed forces, should do the trick. Let's hope it's soon enough.
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  11. #11
    FWIW, in this game I think early war for Britain is bad. They're just not ready. By '38 you can build INTs and fill out your inf with support brigades, but you won't have the tank army you need.

    France, on the other hand, could deal a swift blow. At least they should be able to historically.

  12. #12
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    You can always add:
    ENG = { war = { target = GER } }

    But Im pretty sure the Devs overlooked something. They were right with having only France DOW Germany and not the Uk, since France wat the Ally that guaranteed the independence of Czechoslovakia. But it wasn’t just the French, the USSR had also guaranteed their independence. It was the Munich agreement that led Stalin astray and why the MLR was signed in the first place….So maybe
    SOV = { war = { target = GER } }
    should be added as well. It would certainly make a very interesting game

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    It was the Munich agreement that led Stalin astray and why the MLR was signed in the first place.
    No, it was the failure of alliance talks between SU and FRA/ENG in summer of 1939. Munich showed Stalin, that FRA/ENG didn't wish to fight.
    On the other hand, if Munich gets opposed, Poland should side with Germany.

  14. #14
    Convicted Drive-by Poster Pro_Consul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    But Im pretty sure the Devs overlooked something. They were right with having only France DOW Germany and not the Uk, since France wat the Ally that guaranteed the independence of Czechoslovakia.
    I don't see how you logically got there. Look at it this way, the two choices from the English POV:

    1. Agree to Munich as historically was done. Then France is going to go along, presumably because they do not feel strong enough with UKs backing to take on Germany alone. Fine. Makes sense both logically and historically.

    2. Oppose Munich. This basically means UK is threatening to go to war with Germany if they don't back off the Czechs. Now just how, in that scenario, would it be logical in any manner for the result to be that France ends up at war with Germany and the UK does not?
    An Englishman thinks a hundred miles is a long way. An American thinks a hundred years is a long time. I am beginning to think a hundred dollars is a lot of money. Two of these facts are interesting. All of them are revealing. But only one of them is truly pathetic.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_Consul View Post
    I don't see how you logically got there. Look at it this way, the two choices from the English POV:

    1. Agree to Munich as historically was done. Then France is going to go along, presumably because they do not feel strong enough with UKs backing to take on Germany alone. Fine. Makes sense both logically and historically.

    2. Oppose Munich. This basically means UK is threatening to go to war with Germany if they don't back off the Czechs. Now just how, in that scenario, would it be logical in any manner for the result to be that France ends up at war with Germany and the UK does not?
    That is eminently logic. I'm with you on that one.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opanashc View Post
    No, it was the failure of alliance talks between SU and FRA/ENG in summer of 1939. Munich showed Stalin, that FRA/ENG didn't wish to fight.
    On the other hand, if Munich gets opposed, Poland should side with Germany.
    Nope, Czechoslovakia had military alliances with France and the Soviet Union at the time of the Munich agreement. When Chamberlain didn’t invite/include the Soviets for the talks about Sudetenland, Chamberlain basically destroyed the military alliance of the Soviets with Czechoslovakia without consultation. Something Stalin never forgave him.

    Munich was the final nail in the coffin of Soviet-French/British military relations. After being ignored at Munich Stalin slowly began his rapprochement towards Hitler. The failed talks in the summer of 1939, for a military alliance between the Allies and the USSR, were bound to fail. First of all because of what happened at Munich (ignoring the Soviets and giving in to Hitler). Second because the Allied delegation couldn’t negotiate, they had to confer any proposal to Paris/London. Third because the Allied delegation came by boat, which took a lot of time. This was an affront to say the least since the Allies had been pushing Stalin for quick talks and when he finally agreed, yes they took the boat. The first three arguments are enough to be insulted. And when Ribbentrop came to Moscow, while the British and French were also in Moscow, and he could negotiate on his own on his own and offered Eastern Poland and the Baltic states, it was enough to tip the scales. But all this started at Munich when Stalin was ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_Consul View Post
    I don't see how you logically got there. Look at it this way, the two choices from the English POV:

    1. Agree to Munich as historically was done. Then France is going to go along, presumably because they do not feel strong enough with UKs backing to take on Germany alone. Fine. Makes sense both logically and historically.

    2. Oppose Munich. This basically means UK is threatening to go to war with Germany if they don't back off the Czechs. Now just how, in that scenario, would it be logical in any manner for the result to be that France ends up at war with Germany and the UK does not?
    Historical facts got me there (see also above): Czechoslovakia had a military alliance with France and the USSR. Not with the UK! So if Munich means war, Germany should be at war with FRA and SOV. In game it’s safe to say that this would also mean that ENG declares war on GER. It’s hard to say what would have happened in reality. Though it’s a real “what if” question, I doubt the UK would have gone to war over Czechoslovakia if the French and Russians would have honored their alliance with Czechoslovakia. Maybe something for a mod
    Last edited by Oof; 04-08-2014 at 16:13. Reason: typing erros

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opanashc View Post
    On the other hand, if Munich gets opposed, Poland should side with Germany.
    Yes, I agree. Poland did take land from Czechoslovakia.
    /Loke

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Oof View Post
    Nope, Czechoslovakia had military alliances with France and the Soviet Union at the time of the Munich agreement.
    If UK/French delegation could negotiate in summer of '39, and Poland agreed to let Soviet troops in, to fight the Germans (else the whole point was moot), MR probably would not have happened.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opanashc View Post
    If UK/French delegation could negotiate in summer of '39, and Poland agreed to let Soviet troops in, to fight the Germans (else the whole point was moot), MR probably would not have happened.
    Exactly and that was my point in my reply to your post. If the French would have acted more independently from the British and would have talked with the Soviets, since both had a military alliance with Czechoslovakia, and would have stand tall together to Hitler’s demands , it’s very unlikely Hitler would have actually invaded Czechoslovakia and risk a war on two fronts. He intended to do so before Munich, but at that time it was already clear that the Soviets were taken out of the equation by Chamberlain, so there was no risk of Soviet intervention anymore.

    And with the Communist and part of the Allies both opposing Germany, countries like Poland and Hungary would have granted transit rights without any question. Not granting transit rights would probably have meant that they would have stood alone against Germany, the French and the Soviets!

    If we get the Munich agreement in game, we automatically reckon that the Munich conference was either successful or unsuccessful. What’s not taken into account by most players, is that when Munich starts off WWII, it might not have taken place at all. For instance if the above would have happened. In that sense it’s strange that Czechoslovakia doesn’t start with a military alliance with the French and Soviets. Those alliances should be ended if Munich is successful, but would trigger war if unsuccessful. It would definitely make the game more interesting in the 30ies and I guess it would in game change WWII. With the Soviets intervening in Europe and Germany beaten by them and the French, I reckon they would make good use of the opportunity and create a couple of puppets in Eastern Europe (East Germany, Poland and Hungary(?)) and with those actions trigger WWII and we get the “West Germany or peace event” which would trigger a British DOW (with Britain guaranteeing West Germany instead of Poland).

    The more I think of it, the better this sounds for a mod

  20. #20
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    I suspect something has gone wrong in the OP's game. I've never seen a war over Czechoslovakia not include Britain. There is no limited war mechanic for the Allies. Historical stuff aside, in terms of game mechanics, the Czechs going to war over Munich always drags both France and Britain into the conflict. (Not that the British have a lot t contribute in 1938...)

    It's been awhile since I've done it or had it happen in a game. Is it possible the event was somehow broken?
    Last edited by Secret Master; 06-08-2014 at 18:37.
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