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Poland: Kingdom of Duchy

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Ruwaard said:
One of the reasons for the emperor seem to have been a royal crown (within the empire) in exchange for a withdrawal of the imperial election (by the Burgundian Valois dukes); and ironically to bind them much firmer and formal to the empire (which was an imperial condition), since they perhaps were even more nominal vassals in the empire than in France (so in a way a crown would have made them less free).
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There is always a price tag attached to a crown :D, or a big army headed to Constantinople anyway.

Ruwaard said:
Only two rulers of Lithuania (within the timeframe) had a recognized royal title (one in the 13th century and the other in the 15th century, but the latter was never crowned), most of the other Lithuanian rulers were pagan. If more rulers would have been christian, then I suspect, at least just as IRL Poland, more rulers with the ambition to gain a recognized royal title.
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Mindaugas converted and was granted kingship by the pope (which didn't end well for him). Vytautas who technically also never got a crown by the HREmperor, would take Lithuania from the Jagiellons. I think both of them show that becoming a king required a lot of effort. In the case of Gediminas and Mindaugas the pope offered a crown for a adding Lithuania to the Catholic sphere of influence, while giving a royal title to Vytautas would splinter the Polish-Lithuanian union forming just outside the borders of the HRE. They did received crowns for just owning land, but for significantly furthering the interests of the crown-giving party (the pope or the HREmperor)
 
You dont need any solution, there is no problem.
Youre character holding the title of King doesnt mean hes a king in historical terms but a king in game mechanics terms, is a king under the games rules definitions.
In games mechanics terms the Duke of Poland was a king, even when he was not the king of poland he had dukes as vassals so as far as mechanics go, is a king.
Just as in Cornwall and Ireland there were Kingdoms that compromised of only a single town, in CK game terms they are not even on the map, in CKII game terms they would probably be barons. Not because they were barons, but because they fulfil the role of Barons in the generic-one-name-for-all-situations-game-mechanics.

All thats needed is for the Player when playing Poland to think the word Duke when he reads King and then the problem is solved, this is not a big issue, but a minor role-playing one.

The Mechanics have to do as well as they can for all of europe for all of the time span, so small specific regional quirks not being obviously allowed for is not an issue. Poland is called a Kingdom not because it was a kingdom for all the time of the game but because it acts like a kingdom under the rules of the game, it fits into the kingdomshaped hole not the dukeshaped hole, so no matter what it called itself at the time under the rules of the game it is a kingdom.
 
Yes, and in Ethiopia there were several kingdoms, but they all were part of the Empire of Ethiopia. If Ethiopia is included (I kind of hope it isn't, since I don't think it will be represented very well), those kingdoms would probably be duchies in game terms.
 
a few words about Poland...
Mieszko I, was born around 930th He was the son Siemomysła. This is the first and the rulers of which have relatively much information. He stood at the head of the State which was the result of actions of his father and grandfather. The country emerged from Slavic connections. Legend has it that took his name from the fact that Mieszko for 7 years he was blind and in the seventh year of his sight. There was a great commotion. So the name of Mieszko was supposed to come from the "mixing" that was when he regained his sight. In the early years of the reign of Mieszko I, and therefore about the year 960, his authority outside Polans living over the middle Warta, around Gniezno, subject to a Goplana above the Gopło, Mazovians living on the right bank of the Vistula River and with its chief castle in Plock, and Leda, whose territory was later Sandomierz and Lublin. Probably also inherited from his father, Mieszko Eastern Pomerania. Your home and it was patchy. Consisted of several tribes that have not yet, felt the wider community. Arab traveler Ibrahim ibn Jakub lives is called the king of the north. Living alone was not his to know. While the court of Otto heard of a dangerous neighbor to the east. Mieszko had to conduct the war continued as the young state was threatened from all sides. Initially led war on militant Wielet5ami to address Western. It met with the response from the German side. In 964, there was a Polish-German clashes. Lives troops were defeated, his brother was killed in battle. This defeat led lives to seek help from the Czechs. First, paid homage to the emperor and soon married a Bohemian princess Dobrawa.In 966 he was baptized. Even as an ally of the Emperor Otto I and the Czech Republic continued with success in the next year fighting Wieletami and Wichman and became part of Pomerania. The 972 was said at the Battle of Cedynia attack Margrave Hodona. A year later, after the death of Emperor Otto I appeared on the side of Duke Henry of Bavaria against Otto II wrangler, and after his death in 983, in turn, was once again sided with the prince, only to be regarded as a permanent ally of Otto III. In the year 981 has lost the strategically important Red Cities. At the end of his life (991/992) issued a document Dagome Mieszko Iudex, which gave his country under the protection of the Pope, and described its boundaries.Putting the State under the protection of the Vatican is likely to serve the manifestation of the fact that the principality has become a country lives permanently Christian.









RELATIONS Polish-German for the first Piast developed under the influence of German feudal lords desire to subjugate the Polish lands.Mieszko I and Boleslaw the Brave successfully resisted German expansion.Their policy has allowed the state to strengthen and expand its borders. Thefirst phase of contact with the Empire Piastów went unscathed, while maintaining complete independence of their country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DrXgj1NwN8
 
yourworstnightm said:
Yes, and in Ethiopia there were several kingdoms, but they all were part of the Empire of Ethiopia. If Ethiopia is included (I kind of hope it isn't, since I don't think it will be represented very well), those kingdoms would probably be duchies in game terms.
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Sorry to disappoint your hopes, but they're definitely in.
 
You should ask some Pole on this matter, don't you think? :)

In fact, at the beginning of CK timeframe, Poland WAS considered as Kingdom, as Duke of Polans, Boleslaw "the Bold" was crowned in 1076 by the pope during the time of investiture conflict. After that he was expelled from kingdom for beheading bishop of Krakow, Stanislaw in 1079. After that his brother Wladyslaw Herman become duke of Polans (but not managed to be crowned) the sons and further heirs Wladyslaw Herman in 1138 partied Poland between themselves creating several duchies (that more or less are connected with division of Poland in CK) with senioral duchy of Lesser Poland (Krakow).

The idea was that the oldest of heirs would be considered as "high duke of Polad" ad except his own duchy he'd also be duke of Krakow and Lesser Poland. Of course, it was constant civil war between brothers, cousins and their heirs. During the time of feundal fragmentation Poland lost most of Silesia (the dukes of Silesia had alot of sons, and further divided the province) to HRE, both selled or conquered.

The next king of Poland was Przemyslaw of Greater Poland who become king in 1291, than was short time reign of Czech kings (Wenclaus II and Wenclaus III from 1300 upto 1320). From now on the last two of Piast dynasty were kings (Wladislaw the Elbow-High and Casimir the Great).

The kings of Piast dynasty were here until 1370. Of course the remains of house of Piast were still on Silesia and (more or less independant) Masovia (the last Masovian Piasts died in 1526, while last legitimate Silesian Piast died in 1707).

After Casimir the Great the King of Poland become Louis of Hungary (from Anjou dynasty), who was son of Casmir's sister. After him his daughter, Hedwig was crowned king of the Poland (to ensure that she ruled independetly and not as consort to anybody). She married Grand Duke of Lithuania, Jogaila in 1399 and died not so later month after ging birth to their daughter. Jogaila establish the dynasty of Jagiellons which had ruled as kings of Poland (and Grand Dukes of Lithuania) up to 1572.

To make long story shorter: for timeframe of CK Poland was ruled by King or somebody that was almost the King, or High Duke that was on King-level.

Al.

P.S. Sorry for any misspelling, grammar and any other mistakes it is 10 am now, and I am after third night without sleep.
 
Leviathan07 said:
This rarely happened and you usually had situations where the titular King of, say, Bohemia was a guy in northern Finland or southern Spain who owned only one county and the royal crown. Kind of ridiculous because if you wanted to become King of Bohemia in this situation, even if you owned all of Bohemia you would still have to usurp the title from the Spanish guy (usurp = lay claim) and then take it from him in war.
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When the carolingian empire was disolved, the crown of France went to one son, the crown of Germany to another, and to Lothar went the dutch estates and the crown of italy, as well as the imperial crown. A few more gavelkind successions later (The kings of France and Germany kept their kingdoms whole, but Lothar's ilk did not), the HRE was being held by some random italian dude who no one was listening to. It wasn't until some time afterwards that the HRE was re-established.

So, totally legit. :)
 
Featauril said:
When the carolingian empire was disolved, the crown of France went to one son, the crown of Germany to another, and to Lothar went the dutch estates and the crown of italy, as well as the imperial crown. A few more gavelkind successions later (The kings of France and Germany kept their kingdoms whole, but Lothar's ilk did not), the HRE was being held by some random italian dude who no one was listening to. It wasn't until some time afterwards that the HRE was re-established.

So, totally legit. :)
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Well all three of Lothar's sons died without any legitimate sons, to the extent any heirs existed they were in the female line. Add to that the propensity for Frankish division. Lothar's realm was divided into three. Charles the Bald had only one surviving son. Louis the German had three sons but only one left a male heir for the next generation (Charles the fat's bastard did not inherit) so the crown was united. By the early tenth century dividing the kingly title among all your sons was passe
 
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