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Nope. Emperor is now a fifth-tier title. And emperors can hold kings as vassals. See the developers' comments thread under the heading "Religious Counterweight to the Pope." There are reportedly to be four emperor-level titles, including Byzantine Emperor and Holy Roman Emperor. It might be possible to mod in a Tsar title.
I think King is joking in that thread.

I agree with you on that but I doubt that flexible tier system is realistic gamewise. Kinda an utopia IMO but who knows :)
Well if one looks at EUR: VV, most of the infrastructure for such utopia is in place. Succession crises were nicely done there (although sometimes too frequent :D). Changing regime was a bit simplistic but with a bit of polishing, similar system (with a lot more events and conditions ;)) could work with tier changes in CKII.

While I agree and understand that CKII is a game and not a realistic simulation of medieval rulers, getting a crown is the salt of the game and should be modelled in more vivid detail. Most of my more fun games in CKI were trying to become king if Lotharingia with a Duch count, trying to get Vermandois on the French throne or trying to kick out the Byzantines as a Bulgarian minor, and IMHO I was not the only one.
 
I think he is only half-joking; that is, that just the St. Andrew part is a joke.

The ST. Andrew part is an obvious joke. The king-tier patriarch is, I think, a joke said in a serious tone (he has to be some kind of landless king in Constantinople or based in some kind of micro-province to be true). Hence I believe the four emperors is also a joke.

We'll know for sure next year :D.
 
:p
 
You can see the patriarch in the video dev diary (~1:38). He's a vassal, not a courtier so he might a landless king for real.

I think he won't be landless, but rather a baron (bishop). And that the bishop of Constantinople will get to have the Patriarch king-level title.
 
King/Emperor title is a big deal in CK time period. Owning a lot of land did not make one king and creation or recreation of of kingdoms was a significant diplomatic effort. A title even empty of power and land provided the holder at least nominal prestige, and great domain by itself did not provide the right to the title.

The most famous example would be the duchy of Burgundy. Whilst quite a large and wealthy realm, it was unable to get a royal crown. Another example is Kaloyan who whilst inheriting from his brothers an already free state and cemented rebellion, was only able to get international recognition as a king/tsar because of the influence games of Byzantium and the pope (and obviously the Fourth crusade), getting a Rex title from the Pope (the only Bulgarian king btw) and later a Caesar from Byzantium before its fall. The imperial title of Russia was not exactly recognised outside of Moscow for a long time after Ivan the Terrible.

The example of Burgundy is long after the middle ages have ended. Has Charles the Bold been a medieval duke, first of all he would not have been able to amass that much land (and control it effectively); secondly he would have sought to be elected emperor instead of trying to have a royal title "invented" for himself. Not comparable. Charles the Bold wanted to be recognized as an independent and legitimate ruler of his territories, as a territorial lord in the early modern fashion who rules his lands directly. He did not want to become a king in the feudal sense, where he would have lords of his realm, and a bunch of dukes ruling his lands for him. Not medieval.

Places like Navarra and Corsica were also sought after because they had royal titles both ending in personal unions with richer duchies. One of the main benefits of the Normans and Plantagenets from England was exactly the royal title putting them on the same footing with the king of France.

One of the main weaknesses IMHO of CKI was that gaining higher tier tittle was oversimplified to a landgrab. Which is especially not true for king or emperor tier titles.

EDIT: Another example is also the Polish-Lithuanian union. The dynasty was Lithuanian, the larger realm was Lithuania, but the union was dominated by the Polish part exactly because of the royal title.
But what is the Corsican example supposed to show? That medieval rulers went to great lengths to be formally recognized as kings, even when their actual power was already on par with that of a king? If so, then Corsica is actually a bad example, since IIRC it was only made into a kingdom (by the Pope) in order to legitimize the rule of the Aragonese King over those lands. He was already king, the whole point of the exercise was to legitimize his rule over the islands. (The islanders hated him.) An independent ruler of Corsica or Sardinia would definitely not have sought or been granted a king title from the pope. He could always have elevated himself to be king of the island, which would be perfectly o.k. by medieval logic, since the island was outside the recognized jurisdiction of the established kingdoms at the time. (Until the pope created the crown of Corsica and handed it to the Aragonese, that is.)

There were lots of rulers of fringe territories who were called "kings" in medieval times, but their titles were worthless. For example the leaders of small pagan tribes in remote regions could be called "rex Pruthenorum". But no medieval Christian ruler in his right mind would waste efforts on seizing that land just for the titular ownership. "Might makes right" was the slogan of the middle ages, also "strength creates respect". Not "fancy titles create respect". That would be a renaissance / baroque meme.

Nope. Emperor is now a fifth-tier title. And emperors can hold kings as vassals. See the developers' comments thread under the heading "Religious Counterweight to the Pope." There are reportedly to be four emperor-level titles, including Byzantine Emperor and Holy Roman Emperor. It might be possible to mod in a Tsar title.

Which makes for five playable tiers of titles, from count to emperor. Titles will have culture-specific names, so you can call these five titles anything you like for all members of your culture. Then below there is of course baron and below baron, well we don't talk about those people. ;)
You are mistaken, unfortunately. See DarkRenown's post in the same thread. There are five tiers in total, and four of these are playable. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch are king-level titles (that's what the thread was about that you cited) but neither one is playable, and the EP is actually a landless character.
 
You are mistaken, unfortunately. See DarkRenown's post in the same thread. There are five tiers in total, and four of these are playable. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch are king-level titles (that's what the thread was about that you cited) but neither one is playable, and the EP is actually a landless character.

You're late to the party. the_hdk already pointed out my error in counting. And I am already aware that the thread bearing the title "Religious Counterweight to the Pope" is in fact about the Pope. So I don't see the point of your criticism. Have a nice day!
 
You're late to the party. the_hdk already pointed out my error in counting. And I am already aware that the thread bearing the title "Religious Counterweight to the Pope" is in fact about the Pope. So I don't see the point of your criticism. Have a nice day!

I dont think he meant it as critique :)

It would be cool doh if we got an dev diary about culture and titles :) :p <tip ;) >
 
The example of Burgundy is long after the middle ages have ended. Has Charles the Bold been a medieval duke, first of all he would not have been able to amass that much land (and control it effectively); secondly he would have sought to be elected emperor instead of trying to have a royal title "invented" for himself. Not comparable. Charles the Bold wanted to be recognized as an independent and legitimate ruler of his territories, as a territorial lord in the early modern fashion who rules his lands directly. He did not want to become a king in the feudal sense, where he would have lords of his realm, and a bunch of dukes ruling his lands for him. Not medieval.
Depends when one considers the end of the Middle ages. If one considers the fall of Constantinople as such the Hundred Year's War was already on and Burgundy was a large and powerful duchy, seeking independence from its liege. Seeking a crown after securing such independence de jure would be the logical next step and actions of the later Burgundian dukes fallowed the inertia of their Medieval actions.


But what is the Corsican example supposed to show? That medieval rulers went to great lengths to be formally recognized as kings, even when their actual power was already on par with that of a king? If so, then Corsica is actually a bad example, since IIRC it was only made into a kingdom (by the Pope) in order to legitimize the rule of the Aragonese King over those lands. He was already king, the whole point of the exercise was to legitimize his rule over the islands. (The islanders hated him.) An independent ruler of Corsica or Sardinia would definitely not have sought or been granted a king title from the pope.

The kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica was made to counterweight the kingdom of Naples, so Aragon still getting a crow out of the whole thing. And even such paper kingdom was of value 400 years later. Internationally recognised, or at least such recognised by the at lest theoretical power brokers, is important and valuable.


He could always have elevated himself to be king of the island, which would be perfectly o.k. by medieval logic, since the island was outside the recognized jurisdiction of the established kingdoms at the time. (Until the pope created the crown of Corsica and handed it to the Aragonese, that is.)

I would disagree with you there. According to the medieval logic if one proclaimed himself king, it had no value outside of his own court and may not even be recognised fully within his own state. The kingdom on Earth was a shadow of the kingdom of Heaven, as the kingdom of Heaven was ruled by Jesus, so a kingdom on Earth was ruled by a king, in some sense chosen by by God and to some extent a representative of divine powers on earth. For obvious reason such recognition was not given lightly by the already existing powers, and those already having such recognition would rather not expand their numbers. Sardinia was a kingdom because the vicarius dei said so and cannot come into existence because a temporal ruler may want it to. The only temporal rulers that can also say so are the Roman emperors in the east and west.

There were lots of rulers of fringe territories who were called "kings" in medieval times, but their titles were worthless. For example the leaders of small pagan tribes in remote regions could be called "rex Pruthenorum". But no medieval Christian ruler in his right mind would waste efforts on seizing that land just for the titular ownership.

Pagan rulers can call themselves whatever they like, and be called by anybody whatever they like. “Rex Pruthenorum” was not a title granted to the pagans by the church or by the Roman emperor, thus it had no value. The family of Christian rulers was an already established concept in the Early Medieval times. To be king means to be recognised as such by your peers or your “betters”. No medieval Christian ruler in his right mind would waste efforts on seizing that land to claim a title, because there was no title to be claimed. One had to create one, bring the land and the people to the Christian universe so to speak.

"Might makes right" was the slogan of the middle ages, also "strength creates respect". Not "fancy titles create respect". That would be a renaissance / baroque meme.

Again I disagree. “Might makes right” is a gross misinterpretation and understatement of the most burdened by cosmology, tradition and symbolics era in the history of Europe. Might always had to come dressed in some kind of reason, which was fitting the world view of the medieval man, if no amount of might made it right, at least at the table of international politics. The pope claimed dominion over temporal lords, not because he was a third party that could be extremely useful in a pinch, but because he was a successor of Peter and had received the Constantine's gift. Th Fourth crusade took Constantinople not because they were able to, but because the were descendent from Trojans. No mater how ridiculous was such claim or that it came after the fact it was always there in the Medieval age. Its veracity might be proven by steel, but you cannot expand just because you are able to, you cannot just claim to be king without being recognised by some divine right. At least not without all available Christian rulers gunning for your stuff. “Might makes right” is also fitting for every day and age, in most of the Modernity it was covered by wrapping of the balance of power, in the Medieval age it was covered by the concept of the family of Christian rulers.
 
That's why, if it will be implemented, I would prefer a title high duke of Poland, which by event can change in king of Poland (same tier, but maybe high duke is less prestigious); however once promoted the ruler and his successors normally stay king.

Except a title of "High Duke" would be another ahistorical fabrication, as such a thing didn't really exist.

EDIT: Another example is also the Polish-Lithuanian union. The dynasty was Lithuanian, the larger realm was Lithuania, but the union was dominated by the Polish part exactly because of the royal title.

I would say this was more because Poland was richer, more centralized and advanced (thought the prestige from having a royal title was of course important)
 
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Depends when one considers the end of the Middle ages. If one considers the fall of Constantinople as such the Hundred Year's War was already on and Burgundy was a large and powerful duchy, seeking independence from its liege. Seeking a crown after securing such independence de jure would be the logical next step and actions of the later Burgundian dukes fallowed the inertia of their Medieval actions.




The kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica was made to counterweight the kingdom of Naples, so Aragon still getting a crow out of the whole thing. And even such paper kingdom was of value 400 years later. Internationally recognised, or at least such recognised by the at lest theoretical power brokers, is important and valuable.

(...)

I think you mean Sicily (before the split between 'Naples' and 'Trinacria') and not Naples; Aragon ended up with Sicily-Trinacria* and the much more nominal Sardinia & Corsica, the Angevins only kept Sicily-Naples* (*= both kingdoms officially were named Sicily).

Regarding Burgundy, the Burgundy dukes controlled a lot of territories in France and the Holy Roman Empire, in theory they could have succeeded (would have been very hard) in convincing the emperor to promote one of their holdings within the empire to a kingdom (but still a part of the empire); and have kept their French holdings as a very nominal vassal, like they already did.


@ Raczynski: you're right high duke is a retrospective (/modern) term, if anything it would probably have to be duke of the Polans or prince/duke of Poland (all royal tier but less prestigious than king). Obviously with an event for the full royal title, however this will mostly only be interesting at the start of certain scenarios; once they gain their full royal title, they will probably keep it.
This shouldn't be a problem if it would also apply to CK-1 ducal titles, which in real life were counts like Flanders, Barcelona, Toulouse, Provence, Holland etc. (which in similar should stay at the ducal tier, but should be named counts).
 
I think you mean Sicily (before the split between 'Naples' and 'Trinacria') and not Naples; Aragon ended up with Sicily-Trinacria* and the much more nominal Sardinia & Corsica, the Angevins only kept Sicily-Naples* (*= both kingdoms officially were named Sicily).
AFAIK Sicily-Trinacria went to a cadet Aragonese branch, Sardinia & Corsica went to Aragon and the Anjou kept Sicily-Naples.

Regarding Burgundy, the Burgundy dukes controlled a lot of territories in France and the Holy Roman Empire, in theory they could have succeeded (would have been very hard) in convincing the emperor to promote one of their holdings within the empire to a kingdom (but still a part of the empire); and have kept their French holdings as a very nominal vassal, like they already did.
I assume such was the plan. Although to promote them to kings, the HREmperor should have really good reasons (help in a war he cannot win alone, loyalty while the realm is falling appart), not just good relations. Same goes for the Byzantines, they offered Caesar titles usually to a claimant that was either beating them up or whom they needed to beat up someone else.

@ Raczynski: you're right high duke is a retrospective (/modern) term, if anything it would probably have to be duke of the Polans or prince/duke of Poland (all royal tier but less prestigious than king). Obviously with an event for the full royal title, however this will mostly only be interesting at the start of certain scenarios; once they gain their full royal title, they will probably keep it.
This shouldn't be a problem if it would also apply to CK-1 ducal titles, which in real life were counts like Flanders, Barcelona, Toulouse, Provence, Holland etc. (which in similar should stay at the ducal tier, but should be named counts).
CKII titles can be at least localised, meaning it is theoretically possible to have different names for different tiers. Dukes were dukes as names for the tiers were mostly the same in CKI (I think Turkish culture had localised titles, but the were not playable in vanilla CKI anyway).
 
Again I disagree. “Might makes right” is a gross misinterpretation and understatement of the most burdened by cosmology, tradition and symbolics era in the history of Europe. Might always had to come dressed in some kind of reason, which was fitting the world view of the medieval man, if no amount of might made it right, at least at the table of international politics. The pope claimed dominion over temporal lords, not because he was a third party that could be extremely useful in a pinch, but because he was a successor of Peter and had received the Constantine's gift. Th Fourth crusade took Constantinople not because they were able to, but because the were descendent from Trojans. No mater how ridiculous was such claim or that it came after the fact it was always there in the Medieval age. Its veracity might be proven by steel, but you cannot expand just because you are able to, you cannot just claim to be king without being recognised by some divine right. At least not without all available Christian rulers gunning for your stuff. “Might makes right” is also fitting for every day and age, in most of the Modernity it was covered by wrapping of the balance of power, in the Medieval age it was covered by the concept of the family of Christian rulers.

Awww that's an awfully idealistic view of things. If I understand you right, you're saying, those who used violence to become high and mighty always had a plausible (if far-fetched) claim to highness. I think it's the other way around - first you acquire might and wealth through violence, then you go and buy yourself the title to the property you stole. There were always claqueurs and sycophants willing to provide you with moral and legal blessings, praising your name and telling everyone how it's just and proper that you murdered the old duke, if you were willing to spare some morsels. Or the church, always willing to float with the tide, always ready beatify even the cruelest villain and usurper, if his heirs were willing to pay for it.
:rolleyes:

Examples: Grimaldi family and how they acquired Monaco - cunning and violence, then followed by legalization after the fact. Or the Fourth Crusade. Might makes right. (Your sentence on that particular shame of medieval history sounds to me almost like sarcasm. You are not really serious on that, are you???)

If you're the ruler of a land, and there's no one around able to dispute your rule, you can make yourself king. It would be nice if the game could capture some of the diplomacy that preceded royal coronations but it's really not necessary to capture the essence of what went on at the time, IMHO.
 
RedRooster81 said:
You're late to the party. the_hdk already pointed out my error in counting. And I am already aware that the thread bearing the title "Religious Counterweight to the Pope" is in fact about the Pope. So I don't see the point of your criticism. Have a nice day!
I dont think he meant it as critique :)

It would be cool doh if we got an dev diary about culture and titles :) :p <tip ;) >

Yeah it was not meant as a critique. Just a factual correction (only read half the thread)
 
Awww that's an awfully idealistic view of things. If I understand you right, you're saying, those who used violence to become high and mighty always had a plausible (if far-fetched) claim to highness. I think it's the other way around - first you acquire might and wealth through violence, then you go and buy yourself the title to the property you stole. There were always claqueurs and sycophants willing to provide you with moral and legal blessings, praising your name and telling everyone how it's just and proper that you murdered the old duke, if you were willing to spare some morsels. Or the church, always willing to float with the tide, always ready beatify even the cruelest villain and usurper, if his heirs were willing to pay for it.
:rolleyes:
Yes, first came the Dark ages, where military might was pivotal, then the states that survived that were already part of a more or less established international order. My meaning is not that the reason came before the the might, but that you had to come up with a reason as you did what you did (i.e. Fourth crusade). Face was important in the Middle ages, on many occasions more important than might. Byzantine emperors were relevant throughout in the Middle ages even when they could not project their power away or had no power to project. Being the king of Jerusalem was prestigious even when the kingdom was gone. Might and right should come together and for the game to capture the spirit of medieval politics it should offer you the need to dress your ambitions with right, and your right with might appropriately.

Examples: Grimaldi family and how they acquired Monaco - cunning and violence, then followed by legalization after the fact. Or the Fourth Crusade. Might makes right. (Your sentence on that particular shame of medieval history sounds to me almost like sarcasm. You are not really serious on that, are you???)
Well, Trojan crusaders were a perfect example of a far-fetched justifications for actions. Ridiculous, but accepted, because it fit the worldview established during the era. To reject it is to reject your own mythos, that justifies your own right to rule. I think that the Fourth crusade is one of the more interesting parts of the Middle ages and an event that gave a reason to the Byzantine states to muster their power and survive another two centuries. If it was not the crusaders, it would have been someone else. btw another good example that self-proclaimed titles has no international value - the despot of Epeirus proclaimed himself Byzantine emperor when he captured Salonica and was laughed at by the rest of the Balkan monarch. Even if Epeiros was at the time the Byzantine successor state with the best chance to restore the empire, it was not enough to proclaim himself as such.

If you're the ruler of a land, and there's no one around able to dispute your rule, you can make yourself king. It would be nice if the game could capture some of the diplomacy that preceded royal coronations but it's really not necessary to capture the essence of what went on at the time, IMHO.
That is not true. The grand duke of the Rus was always a grand duke, during medieval times. Their control over their land was not contested and some controlled much more land than some of the Balkan states with royal titles. Galich got and lost a royal title because of the diplomatic game, not in spite of it. Since CKII is in a way also a RPG game it is very important to capture the essence of what went on. The level of abstraction is much lower than in EU. You deal with characters and their relations, not with states. A king in EUIII is the sum of three stats, while in CK he is an individual, with strengths and weaknesses. If those individuals and their struggles are not fleshed out enough it will hurt the game. Remember vanilla CKI (without DV) in the beginning of the game you could just wait for 100 to build a forestry and nothing happened? that is something that should not be in CKII
 
One of the hallmarks of the end of the middle ages and birth of the Renaissance is precisely the idea that might makes right, due to the erosion of the importance of the medieval legality.
 
Awww that's an awfully idealistic view of things. If I understand you right, you're saying, those who used violence to become high and mighty always had a plausible (if far-fetched) claim to highness. I think it's the other way around - first you acquire might and wealth through violence, then you go and buy yourself the title to the property you stole. There were always claqueurs and sycophants willing to provide you with moral and legal blessings, praising your name and telling everyone how it's just and proper that you murdered the old duke, if you were willing to spare some morsels. Or the church, always willing to float with the tide, always ready beatify even the cruelest villain and usurper, if his heirs were willing to pay for it.
:rolleyes:
Thing is that for King-titles they almost always got their ducks in a row first. William the Conquerer, for example, had a fairly incredible line of reasoning poving he was rightful King. But it got blessed by the Pope before he invaded England. The Principality of Antioch and most of the other Crusader states were certainly big enough to be called Kingdoms, but none of their rulers actually took that exalted title.

By the same token Poland and Lithuania were important enough to be Kingdoms, and had Catholic rulers who could have proclaimed themsleves Rex. But most of them didn't bother.

IRL a lord who managed to conquer Finland probably could have gotten himself recognized as a Grand Duke or Grand Prince without the blessing of an Emperor or Pope. But he would not even try to unilaterally declare himself King.

In CK terms this did no matter because there were no special titles for King-level characters who were called something else.

It's possible CK2 will be more flexible. Some of the tools the Devs need to make it more flexible are certainly there, with culture or region-specific titles like Earl. But it's not clear other elements exist, in particular the ability to rename a culture-specific title in-game.

Nick
 
AFAIK Sicily-Trinacria went to a cadet Aragonese branch, Sardinia & Corsica went to Aragon and the Anjou kept Sicily-Naples.


I assume such was the plan. Although to promote them to kings, the HREmperor should have really good reasons (help in a war he cannot win alone, loyalty while the realm is falling appart), not just good relations. Same goes for the Byzantines, they offered Caesar titles usually to a claimant that was either beating them up or whom they needed to beat up someone else.

One of the reasons for the emperor seem to have been a royal crown (within the empire) in exchange for a withdrawal of the imperial election (by the Burgundian Valois dukes); and ironically to bind them much firmer and formal to the empire (which was an imperial condition), since they perhaps were even more nominal vassals in the empire than in France (so in a way a crown would have made them less free).

By the same token Poland and Lithuania were important enough to be Kingdoms, and had Catholic rulers who could have proclaimed themsleves Rex. But most of them didn't bother.

Only two rulers of Lithuania (within the timeframe) had a recognized royal title (one in the 13th century and the other in the 15th century, but the latter was never crowned), most of the other Lithuanian rulers were pagan. If more rulers would have been christian, then I suspect, at least just as IRL Poland, more rulers with the ambition to gain a recognized royal title.