Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 8 - Religion | Page 4

Arizal · May 5, 2011

In the screenshot, they show the nomination of an antipope, but since I saw some grewed button, which values grant you (or not) to appoint an anti-pope. Also, will you balance AI so that there is no a ridiculous quantity of anti-pope (all the catholic countries)? Finally, will it be possible to begin a civil war because you (as a powerful duke, for example) don't want to recognized the new anti-pope?

Doomdark · May 5, 2011

Zechariah Zevi said:
Can the Pope be moved from Rome without the existence of an Antipope (as happened with the Avignon Papacy up to 1378)?

If Rome is lost to the Papacy, yes.

unmerged(31881) · May 5, 2011

Zechariah Zevi said:
Can the Pope be moved from Rome without the existence of an Antipope (as happened with the Avignon Papacy up to 1378)?

Presumably.

Take Rome as a secular ruler - without claiming the Papacy.

(e.g. Orthodox or Muslim ruler takes it... the Pope retains his Popishness but his Popocentric realm now has a new HQ in some other territory.)

edit: emu'd.

Doomdark · May 5, 2011

Frederic III said:
In the screenshot, they show the nomination of an antipope, but since I saw some grewed button, which values grant you (or not) to appoint an anti-pope.

That button is to nominate the successor to the Bishop under Crown Investiture, not antipopes.

Also, will you balance AI so that there is no a ridiculous quantity of anti-pope (all the catholic countries)?

Of course.

Finally, will it be possible to begin a civil war because you (as a powerful duke, for example) don't want to recognized the new anti-pope?

Not planned, but would be cool.

Zenith Darksea · May 5, 2011

Would I get pounced on if I were to point out that the Orthodox Church did not have a concept of a 'supreme pontiff'? This was, after all, the main cause of the rift between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Even EU3 recognises this fairly basic point with its Pentarchy mission. There were, after all, patriarchs in Antioch/Damascus, Alexandria and Jerusalem throughout this period, all of whom were Orthodox. Even within the Byzantine Empire itself, the patriarch couldn't do anything without the agreement of his synod and, unlike in the Roman Catholic Church, the synod didn't have to follow the patriarch's orders.

Now I know that it's not 'ultimate religion simulator', and I know that some trade-offs have to be made in the interests of gameplay etc. etc. However, it does seem to me like the Orthodox factions are going to get the usual treatment that they get in games like Medieval Total War - they end up being a carbon copy of the Roman Catholic Church but without any of the interesting features.

Given the number of people who enjoy playing as the Byzantine Empire, myself included, couldn't the design team push itself to give the Orthodox Church just a little more flavour?

RedRooster81 · May 5, 2011

Zenith Darksea said:
Would I get pounced on if I were to point out that the Orthodox Church did not have a concept of a 'supreme pontiff'? This was, after all, the main cause of the rift between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Even EU3 recognises this fairly basic point with its Pentarchy mission. There were, after all, patriarchs in Antioch/Damascus, Alexandria and Jerusalem throughout this period, all of whom were Orthodox. Even within the Byzantine Empire itself, the patriarch couldn't do anything without the agreement of his synod and, unlike in the Roman Catholic Church, the synod didn't have to follow the patriarch's orders.

Now I know that it's not 'ultimate religion simulator', and I know that some trade-offs have to be made in the interests of gameplay etc. etc. However, it does seem to me like the Orthodox factions are going to get the usual treatment that they get in games like Medieval Total War - they end up being a carbon copy of the Roman Catholic Church but without any of the interesting features.

Given the number of people who enjoy playing as the Byzantine Empire, myself included, couldn't the design team push itself to give the Orthodox Church just a little more flavour?

I second this. I realize too that the religious design might be all but finished, but it would be nice to be able to have regional patriarchs without breaking with the Orthodox religion. The only late antiquity patriarchate in the West is Rome, so I think that it is fair to represent the other four, maybe make a goal of restoring those that have been conquered by Muslims. And allow for the creation of others, as in an independent Bulgaria or a powerful Russian principality.

Blastaz · May 5, 2011

So if the Anti Pope's king can't be excomunicated how does the rest of Christendom sort them out?

Further is the AI going to do this or not? presumably one anti pope won't have too great an effect but if France, England, Denmark, HRE all have one things will get ridiculous.

Imperium Dei · May 5, 2011

Thanks for the information; religion is always an area of particular interest to me in these games. I'm looking forward to it even more now

Harle · May 5, 2011

It would be nice if the patriarchates could somehow become recognized as something other than heresy, but I concede that allowing too much leeway in that regard could cause the map to look pretty funny over the course of a long game.

Maybe consider adding an event for Russia that will allow them to create their own Orthodox church if they fulfill certain religious requirements? I enjoy my games the most when I have some particular longterm goal, which has traditionally been forming a kingdom. But trying to form the Russian Orthodox church would be a really compelling goal.

Juggernaut88 · May 5, 2011

Perhaps its just me, but I think that there should be only one antipope allowed at a time; otherwise this would seem a bit of an ahistoric gimic with 3 or 4 independent popes competing for the top spot. All the rulers of Christiandom should be able to back either the official pope or the one antipope (e.g. if the king of france makes an antipope and you playing as the king of scotland have friendly relations with france, you should be able to back the french antipope instead of the official pope), and down the line may lead to war between the opposing sides. This would be more historic than simply spending some piety to create an anitpope for your own kingdom to avoid excommunication etc.

I also very much like the idea of a pious duke rebelling against his king for creating an antipope -> would be very cool for roleplay purposes

Zenith Darksea · May 5, 2011

Harle said:
It would be nice if the patriarchates could somehow become recognized as something other than heresy

From a simple historical point of view I can't think of a single real-life instance where a new patriarchate was seen as being heretical simply for being new. It's true that they annoyed people, and at times they were seen as schismatic, but they were never considered heretical.

RedRooster81 · May 5, 2011

Blastaz said:
So if the Anti Pope's king can't be excomunicated how does the rest of Christendom sort them out?

Further is the AI going to do this or not? presumably one anti pope won't have too great an effect but if France, England, Denmark, HRE all have one things will get ridiculous.

I think he is excommunicated automatically (whatever the Latin term is) from those following Rome, as is everyone who follows his example by default or actively. Historically, the pope's camp would try to get his vassals (or even his heirs) to depose him in the name of Christian unity (but in reality it was a power struggle), to the point of raising up an anti-king: historical cases being the HRE under Heinrich IV von Franken and Bohemia during the Hussites. And of course religious rebels inspired by the pope's partisans. But it is an interesting theological point whether he is breaking off with universal Christendom, considers the current pope illegitimate, or whatever the point of contention would be. I guess it would depend on the case, which should be reflected somehow in the game. As someone pointed out, in the history of such breaks with Rome, there is on one side the Anglican Church (which is more about politics than anything) and on the other more radical sects that want a total break with tradition (like the Cathars I suppose).

I think that there should be one anti-pope generally speaking, at most. At the same time, I think that it would be historically plausible for there to be a sliding bar on how close or far a certain kingdom is to the Pope and how Rome dictates things should go. I would imagine an axis between Rome and Frankfurt being the core of orthodoxy and then things becoming a bit more localized as you move out from there in 1066. At that time, the Iberian kingdoms were not entirely in line with Rome, although Alfonso VI of Leon moved in that direction early in his reign, something started under his father's rule, and a similar case can be found in the British Isles and Scandinavia, where local forms of worship and some remnants of paganism lingered on. I am complicating the picture because I am a historian and that's what I do, but aside from game mechanics and the like, these issues can be explored through mods. I don't want Doomdark and his colleagues to feel that I am criticizing them. I like very much what I've seen and the release date is about a year off still. So do keep up the good work, and I think that the back and forth this morning has been very exciting.

Nyrael · May 5, 2011

Perhaps its just me, but I think that there should be only one antipope allowed at a time; otherwise this would seem a bit of an ahistoric gimic with 3 or 4 independent popes competing for the top spot.

In RL, there were 3 Pope's at one point so I don't really see a problem.
I just think that creating an Anti-pope should be quite expensive and an opportunity that doesn't appear too often.

RedRooster81 · May 5, 2011

Zenith Darksea said:
From a simple historical point of view I can't think of a single real-life instance where a new patriarchate was seen as being heretical simply for being new. It's true that they annoyed people, and at times they were seen as schismatic, but they were never considered heretical.

I'm no expert by far on Orthodox Christianity, so forgive my ignorance, but a new patriarchate would seem to suggest a break with the authority of the Byzantine emperor, as the case of Bulgaria for instance, or the collapse of that authority because the patriarchate was not established in Moscow until after 1453 IIRC. So would it be considered proper to establish new patriarchates if say the Byzantine Empire succeeded in conquering the Arabian Peninsula and further east? Would there be a Patriarch of Baghdad possibly? Or would there simply be bishops subject to the authority of the nearest of the established patriarchates?

On the same subject, how will the Oriental Christians be handled? Will there be a patriarch in Axum in service to the emperor of Ethiopia, for instance?

Imperium Dei · May 5, 2011

Juggernaut88 said:
Perhaps its just me, but I think that there should be only one antipope allowed at a time; otherwise this would seem a bit of an ahistoric gimic with 3 or 4 independent popes competing for the top spot.

There were over twenty historical antipopes during the game's timeline, and at at least one point three claimants to the Papacy, so as long as the AI is restricted in how often it will do such a thing, as Doomdark suggests it will be, I don't think it would necessarily be too far-fetched.

The Kingmaker · May 5, 2011

Sweet! This looks great guys. Finally a proper papacy feature in a medieval game.

And look at all those neat Saxon bishops! I do hope that's not Harold Godwinson up in the corner though. He looks kind of like a doofus. Give him his Saxon mustache!

(I'm assuming those are still portrait placeholders?)

KonradRichtmark · May 5, 2011

Doomdark said:
Religions gain Moral Authority from things like succeeding with crusades, and also the skills of its chief pontiff.

Am I understanding this right? Every religion has one, common, global Moral Authority value? Rather than the religion having a separate level of Moral Authority in every country with that religion as state religion?

Makes me think of a wacky idea for an AAR: Make it your goal to completely destroy the credibility of every religion except the True Faith

RedRooster81 · May 5, 2011

KonradRichtmark said:
Am I understanding this right? Every religion has one, common, global Moral Authority value? Rather than the religion having a separate level of Moral Authority in every country with that religion as state religion?

Makes me think of a wacky idea for an AAR: Make it your goal to completely destroy the credibility of every religion except the True Faith

I don't know, Konrad. I'm already thinking up modifiers to apply to Moral Authority. Gaining and losing holy sites, discovering important relics, new revelations, church councils (plus or minus), big church scandals (minus, minus, minus), deposing a stubborn secular ruler (either way again), abuse of papal power in public (disbanding an important order of knights or friars), Pope flees Rome. Looks like a general measure of how legitimate your faith is to the folks that you're lording over.

Jak9090 · May 5, 2011

Zenith Darksea said:
Would I get pounced on if I were to point out that the Orthodox Church did not have a concept of a 'supreme pontiff'? This was, after all, the main cause of the rift between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Even EU3 recognises this fairly basic point with its Pentarchy mission. There were, after all, patriarchs in Antioch/Damascus, Alexandria and Jerusalem throughout this period, all of whom were Orthodox. Even within the Byzantine Empire itself, the patriarch couldn't do anything without the agreement of his synod and, unlike in the Roman Catholic Church, the synod didn't have to follow the patriarch's orders.

Now I know that it's not 'ultimate religion simulator', and I know that some trade-offs have to be made in the interests of gameplay etc. etc. However, it does seem to me like the Orthodox factions are going to get the usual treatment that they get in games like Medieval Total War - they end up being a carbon copy of the Roman Catholic Church but without any of the interesting features.

Given the number of people who enjoy playing as the Byzantine Empire, myself included, couldn't the design team push itself to give the Orthodox Church just a little more flavour?

Thirded, I hate when you get hyped up for a "historical" game, only to find that features were cut just to make it easier for the player, everygame I have played so far I get little to none enjoyment from the Byzantine/Roman empire due to historical inaccuracies that arent just bad, they ussually make no sense when included in the time frame.

Panjer · May 5, 2011

Will antipopes get papal names as well?

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