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It's the first Thursday of a new month, and the stars just happen to be exactly right for a new entry in the Crusader Kings II developer diary! God willing, it will be an enlightening one. Yes, my friends, it is time to get serious and talk about religion, and, being a game about medieval times, religion obviously plays a huge part.

There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other. For example, Catholicism has an independent chief pontiff (the Pope) who can excommunicate people and call for crusades. He can also, on rare occasions, grant a divorce or a special Casus Belli. Rulers can request excommunications, divorce or an invasion casus belli from the Pope, but it will cost them a lot of Piety, and requires that the Pope hold them in high regard.

Perhaps the most central feature of the Catholic Church, however, is the investiture of bishops. As you probably recall, fiefdoms can be held by members of the clergy (the rich and juicy Temple type baronies in particular). The income from these holdings normally goes to the Pope and not the secular liege of the bishops. However, if the Prince-Bishop happens to like his liege more than the Pope, he will instead pay taxes to his liege (and allow his troop levies to be raised.) The problem is just that the clergy naturally tends to favor the Pope, which is why kings can pass a law called Crown Investiture. This allows them to appoint new bishops who are appropriately grateful and loyal. Why not just do this all the time then? Because the Pope will be most displeased with kings who have passed this law, effectively barring them from any special Papal favors. There is a way around this problem too though: antipopes. Kings with Crown Investiture and high enough Prestige can set up a Pope of their own; an Antipope. This will ensure that all of the bishops in the kingdom pay taxes to the Crown, and will allow the king to excommunicate characters within the kingdom (but not outside it), arrange divorce, etc. Moreover, characters within the kingdom are immune to excommunication by the Pope, and foreign bishops who prefer your antipope might actually pay taxes to him (and therefore to you.) Antipopes cannot call for Crusades, however.

Another downside is that the setting up - and existence of - antipopes harms the "Moral Authority" of your religion. This value represents how respected the religion is and its general hold over the faithful. When the value is low, the chief pontiff can no longer call for Crusades, heresies start to run rampant, and characters and provinces will not convert to the religion easily. It is all a trade-off, and trade-offs are the heart and soul of good gameplay.

Crusaderkings2_DevDiary_110505_01.jpg

What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

That's all for now. At some point I will talk more about heresies. :) Until next time!

Crusaderkings2_DevDiary_110505_02.jpg

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
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so this anti-pope featurey thing. Is it just gallicanism? as its promoting your bishop to superiority but not breaking from the universality of the church. As there wont be any religion= changes right? so the game wont care what characters are tied to what so its only a politics thing not a heresy thing?

To RedRooster
For both Muslims and Christians, the formal conversion was only the first step, in what could take generations
wasnt so much a universal rule. In spain the divisions where kept being the always christians and the 'Conversos' but if you take the english example, a dane once christened was considered a christian immediately with full rights and title, even if he didnt know who jesus was and sent a prayer to old odin each night before bed. And his children, raised in christian practice would be considered as christian as anyone could be, unless he travelled to france as then you needed to be able to mumble latin and know who your maternal grandfather was to be taken seriously. but the point is and its completely unimportant, but the point is, in some places a division was shoved down between the descendants of christians and the descendants of converts but in other places it wasnt even the least bit important what your dad believed in. As for the most part when in the middle ages, it was what you did not what you were that mattered. the whole original sin, all people being born spiritually equal thing was taken seriously so your grandfather being a heathen didnt count for much. now your grandfather being a traitor that was a whole different thing but a heathen, and especially in the viking parts of the world it would be hard to find anyone whose grandfather wasnt so they were hardly likely to discriminate on account of it.
 
To RedRooster wasnt so much a universal rule. In spain the divisions where kept being the always christians and the 'Conversos' but if you take the english example, a dane once christened was considered a christian immediately with full rights and title, even if he didnt know who jesus was and sent a prayer to old odin each night before bed. And his children, raised in christian practice would be considered as christian as anyone could be, unless he travelled to france as then you needed to be able to mumble latin and know who your maternal grandfather was to be taken seriously. but the point is and its completely unimportant, but the point is, in some places a division was shoved down between the descendants of christians and the descendants of converts but in other places it wasnt even the least bit important what your dad believed in. As for the most part when in the middle ages, it was what you did not what you were that mattered. the whole original sin, all people being born spiritually equal thing was taken seriously so your grandfather being a heathen didnt count for much. now your grandfather being a traitor that was a whole different thing but a heathen, and especially in the viking parts of the world it would be hard to find anyone whose grandfather wasnt so they were hardly likely to discriminate on account of it.

Interesting, but I was trying to get at cultural change, not politics. I am interested in addressing how local forms of Christianity can be reflected.

But to the points you raised, the difference between England and France, say, was cultural and had to do with "civilization," in the sense implemented in EU Rome. England, Scandinavia, Iberia were on the periphery, while the old Carolingian empire was the center of culture and refinement. It's hard for me to put it down in so many words, but there was a certain snobbishness involved.
 
Great diary, the game shows so much promise.

I was wondering, though, with so much income coming the Popes way, what will effectively stop him from conquering many small and weak states in all of Europe?
Well, he's not playable and his AI won't be belligerent.

Given the sometimes less moral reputation of some of the Popes, I just wonder how this will influence the Pope's reputation and how this reputation will influence the likelyhood of Antipopes. Barbarossa has been mentioned in this thread, so I can imagine that an overambitious Pope might clash with the interests of the HRE ruler (or other rulers) and the lords in Italy. Would the less belligerent AI not curtail those ambitions, or are the Pope's stats still more important than the AI in these matters? It could lead, after all, into a nice event chain around the Guelfi and Ghibellini.
 
I know this is practically necromancy but since its a dev diary I assume its okay.

I've been thinking about the anti pope mechanic. Since an antipope has excommunication rights, so would it be possible for a King that's currently excommunicated to name an antipope and use him to lift his own excommunication? I mean that would be hell of a motivation right there and something the Pope would always keep in mind when going there against the leader of a strong nation.

Also, regarding religious authority, it's shared between the Pope and the antipopes right? At least thats how I understand it. Wouldnt it make sense to have a separate rating for the antipope instead of damaging the whole religion? An antipope would start with very low moral authority this way, and if he was able to raise it above the Pope's, then his influence would increase more? I assume this is too late to change but just maybe.

Another thought is that Byzantium is going to kick ass in this game. The Orthodox religion is clearly the "strongest" from the point of view of a secular ruler because the lack of investiture conflict makes the Emperor very powerful. Furthermore, Byzantium has high crown authority from what we've read AND the highest tech levels at game start according to that video AAR in Iberia.
 
I know this is practically necromancy but since its a dev diary I assume its okay.

I've been thinking about the anti pope mechanic. Since an antipope has excommunication rights, so would it be possible for a King that's currently excommunicated to name an antipope and use him to lift his own excommunication? I mean that would be hell of a motivation right there and something the Pope would always keep in mind when going there against the leader of a strong nation.

Also, regarding religious authority, it's shared between the Pope and the antipopes right? At least thats how I understand it. Wouldnt it make sense to have a separate rating for the antipope instead of damaging the whole religion? An antipope would start with very low moral authority this way, and if he was able to raise it above the Pope's, then his influence would increase more? I assume this is too late to change but just maybe.

Another thought is that Byzantium is going to kick ass in this game. The Orthodox religion is clearly the "strongest" from the point of view of a secular ruler because the lack of investiture conflict makes the Emperor very powerful. Furthermore, Byzantium has high crown authority from what we've read AND the highest tech levels at game start according to that video AAR in Iberia.

But would it worth to create an Antipope just to remove the excommunication trait from yourself? I mean the consequences of an Antipope creation could be harsher than having the excommunication trait...
 
I've been thinking about the anti pope mechanic. Since an antipope has excommunication rights, so would it be possible for a King that's currently excommunicated to name an antipope and use him to lift his own excommunication? I mean that would be hell of a motivation right there and something the Pope would always keep in mind when going there against the leader of a strong nation.


Pretty much, yep. I've done that before in preview games. In fact, in earlier previews, backing an anti-Pope automatically removes excommunication. And, because I can't resist the obscure reference....

The-Untouchables-Sean-Connery-and-Kevin-Costner-27-8-10-kc.jpg


The HRE makes the Pope excommunicate you? You back an anti-Pope. He tries to assassinate your anti-Pope, you replace the current Pope by war. It's the Crusader Kings way.
:)

Note that you can't back anti-Popes if the head of the religion is the vassal of an Emperor. That means that this option is not available for Orthodox characters.

Wouldnt it make sense to have a separate rating for the antipope instead of damaging the whole religion?

No, because that's not what moral authority gauges. It doesn't track the moral authority of the head of a religion, but the whole thing. If moral authority goes way down, then heresies start to form and spread. Having an anti-Pope damages the moral authority of the whole faith over time in addition to the initial hit (having more than one is even worse). This is the balance mechanic to anti-Popes and prevents anti-Pope spam. If the moral authority of the church turns completely to crap, everyone who isn't a heretic loses. (Note: on the other hand, anyone with the long term goal of trashing the religious unity of Western Europe should go right ahead with their evil plan. :)


Another thought is that Byzantium is going to kick ass in this game. The Orthodox religion is clearly the "strongest" from the point of view of a secular ruler because the lack of investiture conflict makes the Emperor very powerful. Furthermore, Byzantium has high crown authority from what we've read AND the highest tech levels at game start according to that video AAR in Iberia.

Well, it's awesome if you are in charge. Vassals have a harder time clawing their way to the top with higher crown authority. :)

And actually, last time I checked, I think Alexandria has better techs than the core territories for Byzantium.

EDIT: Backing an anti-Pope requires a pile of prestige and free investiture, so it's not an option for most Catholics, either. Count Fuddy McDuddy probably doesn't have the prestige (and never will) to back an anti-Pope.
 
An Untouchables reference is always welcome :) Secret Master, how well does Byzantium tend to hold together in the face of the Seljuks? They didn't tend to have much of a chance in my CK games, but I'm wondering if that's changed.
 
An Untouchables reference is always welcome :) Secret Master, how well does Byzantium tend to hold together in the face of the Seljuks? They didn't tend to have much of a chance in my CK games, but I'm wondering if that's changed.

They tend to do fine. Since the Seljuk Turks can't annex them in one go, even a disaster like Manzikert isn't the final end of the empire. Furthermore, since the AI is better than some of the historical rulers, there's a good chance the empire will thrive in every game. At least, until a drooling idiot takes the purple...
 
They tend to do fine. Since the Seljuk Turks can't annex them in one go, even a disaster like Manzikert isn't the final end of the empire. Furthermore, since the AI is better than some of the historical rulers, there's a good chance the empire will thrive in every game. At least, until a drooling idiot takes the purple...

Music to my ears. Thanks!
 
Would be awesome if you would actually be able to split Catholism apart between 2 rival popes (like the one France created once, which many nations followed). Also, I think that you should actually be able to win and replace the Pope in the Curia (or create a different Church).
 
Would be awesome if you would actually be able to split Catholism apart between 2 rival popes (like the one France created once, which many nations followed).

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you might be able to do something like this. If bishops can pay taxes to either Pope-claimant, then we should be able to mod in relations boosts between the antipope and bishops we want to support him.
 
Would be awesome if you would actually be able to split Catholism apart between 2 rival popes (like the one France created once, which many nations followed). Also, I think that you should actually be able to win and replace the Pope in the Curia (or create a different Church).

Ummm, you can. That was the point of my little joke with The Untouchables picture I posted above.

When you back an anti-Pope, he gets a claim on Pope of the Papal States. If you back his claim in a war, and you win, your anti-Pope becomes the new Pope. And he will really like you, so Papal favors will be easy to get.

Furthermore, anti-Popes can turn into a generational thing. I've had situations where wars with the Papacy and its allies were inconclusive, so the anti-Pope passed his claim to his successor a few times, resulting in two rival Papacies for a couple of decades, just like real life.

In fact, backing an anti-Pope also means that bishops that like your anti-Pope more than the real Pope pay money to the anti-Pope.

I should warn you that, just like real life, schisms of this nature tend to erode the moral authority of the entire religion. If you have an anti-Pope problem, you probably should resolve sooner rather than later. If your faith has 3 or more rival Popes, you really need to fix it. I had a bug in an old game that cause 5 rival anti-Popes to exist at one time. Moral authority plummeted after only a few decades, resulting in so much heresy that western Europe was busy making the 30 Years War look like a short Passion Play. Considering that the 30 years war is outside the timeframe of the game, you can understand how bad things got. :blink:
 
It would be cool if when the moral authority of a religion got low enough, characters would stop caring about other's heresy, since everyone is a heretic anyway. Wars over heresy should mostly happen when there's still a fairly strong papacy, once the expectation of religious unity is gone only the most zealous would see any reason to fight over religious doctrine.
 
It would be cool if when the moral authority of a religion got low enough, characters would stop caring about other's heresy, since everyone is a heretic anyway. Wars over heresy should mostly happen when there's still a fairly strong papacy, once the expectation of religious unity is gone only the most zealous would see any reason to fight over religious doctrine.

Of course the one time the Pope's moral authority was that low IRL, and alternate forms of Christianity became important, the result was several centuries of extremely bloody warfare. Granted the Thirty Years War is out-of-period, but it's the closest thing we've got to a historic example.

Nick
 
I'd say it was because the Pope's moral authority was quite high that the wars of religion in Europe happened, the Catholics felt they still had enough power to enforce their doctrine on the Protestants.
 
I'd say it was because the Pope's moral authority was quite high...

But that's not what moral authority measures. It measures the moral authority of the entire religion, not just the Pope (or religious head).

This is important because low moral authority does other things besides cause heresies to break out. If moral authority gets too low, excommunication stops working altogether. The Pope can't grant invasion CBs once moral authority drops past a certain point. There are probably some other effects that I can't think of at the moment (event modifiers and such).

It also means that just because you got a good Pope in office now, it doesn't mean that the perception of corruption just goes away.

Moral authority is lowered by other things besides anti-Popes. Refusing to release a religious figure from your prison when the local clergy ask you to erodes the moral authority by like 1%. No big deal, until 10 rulers are all refusing to release religious figures from prison. Tiny little things like this can add up over time, making the entire church look bad.

Eroding the moral authority of the church (every religion in the game has moral authority, by the way, its just a bigger issue with Catholics since the Papacy is an independent power) is not just a "The head of my religion acts like a secular jackass" problem. Instead, it seems to be more of a "The religion has always taught X, Y, and Z. The entire hierarchy of the faith seems corrupt and the secular rulers just do what they want. Maybe heretic A and heretic B are right." And since heretics are not adding resources to the established church hierarchy, conflict is inevitable because this is the Middle Ages in Europe; secular rulers and church officials are inextricably linked in their networks of political and economic power. Besides, just because ruler A gets a heretic CB against ruler B, it doesn't mean they have to fight. But if ruler A covets the holdings of ruler B....
 
Then replace "pope" with "catholic faith", my point still stands.