Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 8 - Religion | Page 13

Brownbeard · Dec 8, 2011

Any new insights into Oriental Orthodox within game mechanics?

Nisco · Dec 8, 2011

When you create an anti-pope in your own country, will he come independent or remain under your rule? If you then fight and win over original pope and replace him, will the provinces in your realm be reverted back to you since he now has his own land or will they remain with the new pope. If the latter is the case, won't the pope be huge after a couple of anti-popes?

Nick B II · Dec 8, 2011

Nisco said:
When you create an anti-pope in your own country, will he come independent or remain under your rule? If you then fight and win over original pope and replace him, will the provinces in your realm be reverted back to you since he now has his own land or will they remain with the new pope. If the latter is the case, won't the pope be huge after a couple of anti-popes?

I assume that all anti-Popes start out as Catholic Bishops, which means they start out with at least a Barony.

The game seems designed so that a Rome-based King-tier character would give away an English/French/etc. Barony because it would be too hard to run, and that the Bishop would be likely to go back to his rightful King eventually due to several game mechanics.

Brownbeard said:
Any new insights into Oriental Orthodox within game mechanics?

A good question.

Last we'd heard they were Orthodox heretics, with no Pope in Alexandria. Anybody got more details?

Spectacle said:
I'd say it was because the Pope's moral authority was quite high that the wars of religion in Europe happened, the Catholics felt they still had enough power to enforce their doctrine on the Protestants.

The thing is hard-core Catholics will always think they have the moral authority to force their doctrines on everyone else, which means it's not a useful game mechanic.

What is a useful game mechanic is the non-hard-core Catholic's belief that the Church and Pope has the right to force them to do things. That's what Moral Authority seems to measure, the opinions of people who only agree with the Pope some of the time. And the Wars of Religion seem to prove pretty conclusively that when that number goes down Catholicism is in trouble.

Nick

Secret Master · Dec 8, 2011

Spectacle said:
Then replace "pope" with "catholic faith", my point still stands.

Not if you accept this view of religious politics in medieval Europe:

Secret Master said:
...And since heretics are not adding resources to the established church hierarchy, conflict is inevitable because this is the Middle Ages in Europe; secular rulers and church officials are inextricably linked in their networks of political and economic power. Besides, just because ruler A gets a heretic CB against ruler B, it doesn't mean they have to fight. But if ruler A covets the holdings of ruler B....

Low moral authority does not equate to religious tolerance, religious apathy, or even an early embrace of enlightenment or modern ideas. It means that one specific form of religious thought has been tarnished in the eyes of followers. That doesn't mean other forms of religious thought are similarly tarnished. A character can have either the zealous or cynical traits independent of their current religion.

If Roman Catholicism goes down to a moral authority of 10% (low enough to deactivate all special functions in the current preview build), heresies spring up. Let's say King Mark the Zealous is a zealous character who embraces Lollard in the ensuing religious confusion. Guess what? Lollard has a moral authority of 50% (the default moral authority for heresies, subject to change like any other faith). Now King Mark the Zealous has found a religion that works for him and he really believes in it. So, of course, he's not going to say, "Yeah, let's just all get along." He might instead say, "Those damnable prelates in the Roman Church have perverted God's word, so I'm going to invite Wycliffites to court and start building an entirely new religious structure in my realm. And in the process, I'll convert people to my religious ideals and if anyone tries to stop me, I'll fight them." This in turn causes neighboring Catholic states to be worried, and why shouldn't they? They still believe in the power and righteousness of their faith, even with the low moral authority. In fact, there may be zealous Roman Catholics who feel it is their duty to save the souls of their neighbors. And since King Mark is zealous, he has no love for those Cathars next door, either, because they're wrong, too. (In a different way, obviously.)

If King Mark is a cynical, it works the other way. He sees the corruption of low moral authority Roman Catholicism, but doesn't care until Wycliffe's followers tell him that by embracing their heresy, he has a moral obligation to "save" the church via war. Now King Mark the Cynical Bastard embraces Lollard specifically so he can fight wars with his neighbors technically in the name of religion. He doesn't really give a damn about religion, but it's a useful tool to get what he wants politically.

In both cases, the moral authority of the religion has no impact on the religious tolerance or apathy of individual characters. Furthermore, just because the main religion appears corrupt, this in no way means that its heresies look corrupt. The only difference between the moral authority of the main faith and the moral authority of the heresies is that the moral authority of the main faith is used as the catalyst for the spread of heresy since the "main" faith is the yardstick by which others are measured (for better or worse).

Dorevai · Dec 9, 2011

You must stream. God wills it.

Jia Xu · Dec 9, 2011

We need a sticky topic that collects Secret Master posts. I've been learning more about the game from him recently than I have from most DDs.

Ordo Impavidus · Dec 9, 2011

Doomdark said:
What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

Also, the countless believers of the 'other' religions, especially in these modern times, value, yearn and respect the Authority-derived institutions for higher learning: The Alma Mater. Through it the Authority establishes far more for itself than for the willing pupil, regardless of the loyal subject's religious beliefs, backgrounds or convictions -- a stealthy and effective crusade.

Βαβυλών, ie Babylon

Since religion plays -still- a very large part in today's world, it should rightly play a large part in this game.

zmantle · Dec 9, 2011

Secret Master said:
Not if you accept this view of religious politics in medieval Europe:

Low moral authority does not equate to religious tolerance, religious apathy, or even an early embrace of enlightenment or modern ideas. It means that one specific form of religious thought has been tarnished in the eyes of followers. That doesn't mean other forms of religious thought are similarly tarnished. A character can have either the zealous or cynical traits independent of their current religion.

If Roman Catholicism goes down to a moral authority of 10% (low enough to deactivate all special functions in the current preview build), heresies spring up. Let's say King Mark the Zealous is a zealous character who embraces Lollard in the ensuing religious confusion. Guess what? Lollard has a moral authority of 50% (the default moral authority for heresies, subject to change like any other faith). Now King Mark the Zealous has found a religion that works for him and he really believes in it. So, of course, he's not going to say, "Yeah, let's just all get along." He might instead say, "Those damnable prelates in the Roman Church have perverted God's word, so I'm going to invite Wycliffites to court and start building an entirely new religious structure in my realm. And in the process, I'll convert people to my religious ideals and if anyone tries to stop me, I'll fight them." This in turn causes neighboring Catholic states to be worried, and why shouldn't they? They still believe in the power and righteousness of their faith, even with the low moral authority. In fact, there may be zealous Roman Catholics who feel it is their duty to save the souls of their neighbors. And since King Mark is zealous, he has no love for those Cathars next door, either, because they're wrong, too. (In a different way, obviously.)

If King Mark is a cynical, it works the other way. He sees the corruption of low moral authority Roman Catholicism, but doesn't care until Wycliffe's followers tell him that by embracing their heresy, he has a moral obligation to "save" the church via war. Now King Mark the Cynical Bastard embraces Lollard specifically so he can fight wars with his neighbors technically in the name of religion. He doesn't really give a damn about religion, but it's a useful tool to get what he wants politically.

In both cases, the moral authority of the religion has no impact on the religious tolerance or apathy of individual characters. Furthermore, just because the main religion appears corrupt, this in no way means that its heresies look corrupt. The only difference between the moral authority of the main faith and the moral authority of the heresies is that the moral authority of the main faith is used as the catalyst for the spread of heresy since the "main" faith is the yardstick by which others are measured (for better or worse).

So what effect does low authority of a heresy have?

Nuril · Dec 9, 2011

zmantle said:
So what effect does low authority of a heresy have?

Presumably it'd be the same? So if you're Catholic, convert to the Lollard heresy and Lollards wind up with low Authority then maybe some Waldensian heresies could spring up and undermine you even more. Maybe even some looking upon your Heresy as a corruption and deciding to turn back to the Catholic papacy.

No idea, but it certainly seems feasible enough that more heresies within a heresy would pop-up if it isn't unified enough to sustain itself. Just look on the many thousands of different sects of Protestantism.

What I'd be curious about would be how such mechanics would function for Muslims/Pagans, though. For Islam I can see it given Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufi, Ibadi or what-have-you and that they have Caliphates, but for pagans? If you weren't much of a war-like person you just praised more fertility or learning inclined Gods over the war-like ones and the ones worshiping war-like ones didn't see their different outlooks as some huge challenge to them, since it's the same pantheons. That's probably something the DLC will have to deal with. Until then I guess they just won't have heresies or a replacement feature, but they likely need all the bonuses they can get and it's not like there's huge swaths of territory for such problems to pop up in anymore anyway.

Secret Master · Dec 9, 2011

zmantle said:
So what effect does low authority of a heresy have?

Don't have a clue. Since heresies can't have anti-Popes or a religious head, it is hard for their moral authority to drop really low, really quickly. You'd have to have a bunch of rulers believing in the heresy, and they would all have to spend years doing things that lower the moral authority of the heresy 1% at a time. Since that is not a common occurrence, I have not observed the impact of low moral authority on heresies.

And it is not that often that Roman Catholicism gets low moral authority, either. You really got to put some work into it or play MP where everyone has free investiture and they all have anti-Popes to immunize them from excommunication.

Bloodmerchant · Dec 10, 2011

Is Shi'ism considered to be a heresy of Sunnism in this game? How do heresies of other religions work?

Jaol · Dec 10, 2011

Bloodmerchant said:
Is Shi'ism considered to be a heresy of Sunnism in this game? How do heresies of other religions work?

No, IIRC, it's a separate religion, like the Orthodox are to the Catholics. Basically the setup is: religion group (Christian) -> religion (Catholic) -> heresy (Lollard)

Dorevai · Dec 10, 2011

I love the name of the Lollard heresy. I'd be lolling it up in Europe. All of Europe will embrace the LOL or be subject to eternal damnation in GT*O.

nemuri_no_kogoro · Dec 10, 2011

Secret Master said:
Don't have a clue. Since heresies can't have anti-Popes or a religious head, it is hard for their moral authority to drop really low, really quickly. You'd have to have a bunch of rulers believing in the heresy, and they would all have to spend years doing things that lower the moral authority of the heresy 1% at a time. Since that is not a common occurrence, I have not observed the impact of low moral authority on heresies.

And it is not that often that Roman Catholicism gets low moral authority, either. You really got to put some work into it or play MP where everyone has free investiture and they all have anti-Popes to immunize them from excommunication.

No religious heads for Heretics? Aw, I was hoping there would a Cathar pope event where if you get enough land/convert you could be elevated past heretic status.
Does anyone this it'd be moddible to do something like that? To make an event chain/decision that coverts a heretical subsect to a true branch of the religion?
Such as Cathar going from being a simple Heretic to becoming on the same level as the Orthodox?

Wezqu · Dec 10, 2011

viruscarrier said:
No religious heads for Heretics? Aw, I was hoping there would a Cathar pope event where if you get enough land/convert you could be elevated past heretic status.
Does anyone this it'd be moddible to do something like that? To make an event chain/decision that coverts a heretical subsect to a true branch of the religion?
Such as Cathar going from being a simple Heretic to becoming on the same level as the Orthodox?

Well if I'm not wrong historically many heretics were against someone like pope. So they would not allow one person to be the leader of their religion. So Cathar should not have their own pope as their beliefs were against it. If they would add events where the heretic bishops can call councils where they would decide bigger things with their pears would be more historical.

Brownbeard · Dec 10, 2011

So, are Coptic and Syriac Orthodox separate religions within Christian group, or are they treated as heresies within Greek Orthodoxy?

Crusader states would be a little bland without the native Christian population.

Also, what about Nestorian?

Jaol · Dec 10, 2011

viruscarrier said:
Does anyone this it'd be moddible to do something like that? To make an event chain/decision that coverts a heretical subsect to a true branch of the religion?
Such as Cathar going from being a simple Heretic to becoming on the same level as the Orthodox?

I'm sure you could do it. You'd need to make both a religion and a heresy called Cathar, make it initially impossible for anyone to convert to the religion Cathar, then have events that switch all Cathar heretics to the Cathar religion and disable the Cathar heresy once its strong enough.

eliphas8 · Dec 10, 2011

viruscarrier said:
No religious heads for Heretics? Aw, I was hoping there would a Cathar pope event where if you get enough land/convert you could be elevated past heretic status.
Does anyone this it'd be moddible to do something like that? To make an event chain/decision that coverts a heretical subsect to a true branch of the religion?
Such as Cathar going from being a simple Heretic to becoming on the same level as the Orthodox?

You could do that but I dont think giving these groups their own pope is a good idea, the Lolards, the Cathars and the Bogomolists where against the idea of a centralized church structure. I think that is almost every group besides monophysites that the game represents.

Secret Master · Dec 10, 2011

There is also a game balance issue. In order to balance some things out, it looks like that removing the possibility of a religious head for heresies means that if you embrace a heresy, you can't make use of the perks that being mainstream would give you.

If you don't have a religious head, in the current build, you can't get annulments, invasion CBs, crusades, or excommunications. This seems to balance out the Holy War CB that is available against everyone in your faith that is not a heretic, which is a very powerful perk.

This might all change before release, though.

Orinsul · Dec 12, 2011

Jaol said:
I'm sure you could do it. You'd need to make both a religion and a heresy called Cathar, make it initially impossible for anyone to convert to the religion Cathar, then have events that switch all Cathar heretics to the Cathar religion and disable the Cathar heresy once its strong enough.

Ultimately, the Albergesians were medieval heretics not post-reformation ones, in Paradox terms, revolutionaries not nationalists. The aim wasnt to break away and create a new church, such a thing was beyond imagination, they saw themselves as much as defenders of the catholic church as true catholics did, the aim was to create a second pope and a second church, but 'reform' the church along their lines.
For a Mod giving the albegensian a chance for victory then if the Catharites are strong enough they shouldnt create a new religion, they should stop being heretics and become roman catholics, and all non-catharite catholics should become heretics with an event offering them the chance to bend the knee to the new 'orthodoxy' and lose the heretic trait/religion or however it works, for those characters who arent concerned over theology or truth, or to hold true to the old orthodoxy and retain the heretic trait and maybe get counter-revolution plots or CBs.

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