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Thread: Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 8 - Religion

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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 8 - Religion

    It's the first Thursday of a new month, and the stars just happen to be exactly right for a new entry in the Crusader Kings II developer diary! God willing, it will be an enlightening one. Yes, my friends, it is time to get serious and talk about religion, and, being a game about medieval times, religion obviously plays a huge part.

    There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other. For example, Catholicism has an independent chief pontiff (the Pope) who can excommunicate people and call for crusades. He can also, on rare occasions, grant a divorce or a special Casus Belli. Rulers can request excommunications, divorce or an invasion casus belli from the Pope, but it will cost them a lot of Piety, and requires that the Pope hold them in high regard.

    Perhaps the most central feature of the Catholic Church, however, is the investiture of bishops. As you probably recall, fiefdoms can be held by members of the clergy (the rich and juicy Temple type baronies in particular). The income from these holdings normally goes to the Pope and not the secular liege of the bishops. However, if the Prince-Bishop happens to like his liege more than the Pope, he will instead pay taxes to his liege (and allow his troop levies to be raised.) The problem is just that the clergy naturally tends to favor the Pope, which is why kings can pass a law called Crown Investiture. This allows them to appoint new bishops who are appropriately grateful and loyal. Why not just do this all the time then? Because the Pope will be most displeased with kings who have passed this law, effectively barring them from any special Papal favors. There is a way around this problem too though: antipopes. Kings with Crown Investiture and high enough Prestige can set up a Pope of their own; an Antipope. This will ensure that all of the bishops in the kingdom pay taxes to the Crown, and will allow the king to excommunicate characters within the kingdom (but not outside it), arrange divorce, etc. Moreover, characters within the kingdom are immune to excommunication by the Pope, and foreign bishops who prefer your antipope might actually pay taxes to him (and therefore to you.) Antipopes cannot call for Crusades, however.

    Another downside is that the setting up - and existence of - antipopes harms the "Moral Authority" of your religion. This value represents how respected the religion is and its general hold over the faithful. When the value is low, the chief pontiff can no longer call for Crusades, heresies start to run rampant, and characters and provinces will not convert to the religion easily. It is all a trade-off, and trade-offs are the heart and soul of good gameplay.

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    What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

    That's all for now. At some point I will talk more about heresies. Until next time!

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    Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
    Last edited by Doomdark; 05-05-2011 at 14:28.
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    Forum's #1 Irishman Demi Moderator RedRalphWiggum's Avatar

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    Looks brilliant

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    Major esbenmf's Avatar
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    Ohh, both Investiture and Antipopes. this seems like a major and much needed step forward from CKI.

    Esben

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    Anti-Emperor RhoDaZZ's Avatar
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    Great diary, the game shows so much promise.

    I was wondering, though, with so much income coming the Popes way, what will effectively stop him from conquering many small and weak states in all of Europe?

    Also, if prestige is gained in any way similarly as in CKI, isn't a 500 prestige cost for your own Anti-Pope a tad too low? And is it possible to give a sneak peak of what the results have been (if any) from testing the clergy<>secular princes balance?

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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhoDaZZ View Post
    Great diary, the game shows so much promise.

    I was wondering, though, with so much income coming the Popes way, what will effectively stop him from conquering many small and weak states in all of Europe?
    Well, he's not playable and his AI won't be belligerent.

    Also, if prestige is gained in any way similarly as in CKI, isn't a 500 prestige cost for your own Anti-Pope a tad too low? And is it possible to give a sneak peak of what the results have been (if any) from testing the clergy<>secular princes balance?
    The actual numbers should be taken with a grain of salt at this point.
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    First Lieutenant Xain's Avatar
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    Will religions be moddable?

    And I read that names of the Pope and the Antipope are "Alexander", "Paschal"... I guess it is likely that the english Antipope, such as the other bishops in the Realm, has a Anglo-Saxon christening name. So shall we assume that regnal name are implemented ? And if that's the case, is it just for the Papacy or for Kingdoms too ?
    Last edited by Xain; 05-05-2011 at 14:52.

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    wishes for a WWI game Affenklaus's Avatar

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    This is the best addition to the game mentioned so far. It sounds really great and reasonably thought out.

    Will it be possible for single characters to convert to a different religion by a decision or something similiar (A Pagan getting baptised etc)?
    "It is not in swaddling-bands that we learn to walk. It is not in the dark that we learn to distinguish colours. It is not under oppression that we learn how to use freedom." - Thomas Babington Macaulay

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    Captain Assos's Avatar
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    Sweet! Very nice with the antipope idea! I am assuming the antipope could become the pope if the pope is forced to concede?

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    First Lieutenant Xain's Avatar
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    1) Will religions be moddable?

    2) And I read that names of the Pope and the Antipope are "Alexander", "Paschal"... I guess it is likely that the english Antipope, such as the other bishops in the Realm, has a Anglo-Saxon christening name. So shall we assume that regnal name are implemented ? And if that's the case, is it just for the Papacy or for Kingdoms too ?

    I am assuming the antipope could become the pope if the pope is forced to concede?
    3) That's what I'm asking too. Is there any way for the Antipope to become the Pope ?

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    General Riddermark's Avatar
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    I don't like the *once again* bare representation of the orthodox religion. Being the Patriarch of the religion should give significant bonuses while orthodox nations who HAVE to bow down to that Patriarch are affected negatively. It's no coincidence many nations fought to have their own Patriarchate recognized by the Byzantines. I'm quoting here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari...atriarchate.29

    Following Bulgaria's two decisive victories over the Byzantines ...the government declared the autonomous Bulgarian Archbishopric as autocephalous and elevated it to the rank of Patriarchate at an ecclesiastical and national council held in 919. After Bulgaria and the Byzantine Empire signed a peace treaty in 927 that concluded the 20-year-long war between them, the Patriarchate of Constantinople recognised the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and acknowledged its patriarchal dignity[1][2]. The Bulgarian Patriarchate was the first autocephalous Slavic Orthodox Church, preceding the autocephaly of the Serbian Orthodox Church (1219) by 300 years and of the Russian Orthodox Church (1596) by some 600 years. It was the sixth Patriarchate after Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch. The seat of the Patriarchate was the new Bulgarian capital of Preslav. The Patriarch was likely to have resided in the town of Drastar (Silistra), an old Christian centre famous for its martyrs and Christian traditions.
    If you continue to read on you will see it was a huge deal to have your own Patriarchate and that should be a possibility in the game when u are negotiating with the current Patriarch. It's a vital part of a stronger claim i.e the Russians calling themselves the third Rome and taking the role of successors of the Byzantine Empire.

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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xain View Post
    Will religions be moddable?

    And I read that names of the Pope and the Antipope are "Alexander", "Paschal"... I guess it is likely that the english Antipope, such as the other bishops in the Realm, has a Anglo-Saxon christening name. So shall we assume that regnal name are implemented ? And if that's the case, is it just for the Papacy or for Kingdoms too ?
    Religions are fully moddable.

    Popes and Antipopes get a regnal name, but they are unique that way.
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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Affenklaus View Post
    This is the best addition to the game mentioned so far. It sounds really great and reasonably thought out.

    Will it be possible for single characters to convert to a different religion by a decision or something similiar (A Pagan getting baptised etc)?
    Something similar, yes.
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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Assos View Post
    Sweet! Very nice with the antipope idea! I am assuming the antipope could become the pope if the pope is forced to concede?
    Yes. An antipapacy is actually just a claim on the title to the real papacy.
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    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riddermark View Post
    I don't like the *once again* bare representation of the orthodox religion. Being the Patriarch of the religion should give significant bonuses while orthodox nations who HAVE to bow down to that Patriarch are affected negatively. It's no coincidence many nations fought to have their own Patriarchate recognized by the Byzantines. I'm quoting here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgari...atriarchate.29

    If you continue to read on you will see it was a huge deal to have your own Patriarchate and that should be a possibility in the game when u are negotiating with the current Patriarch. It's a vital part of a stronger claim i.e the Russians calling themselves the third Rome and taking the role of successors of the Byzantine Empire.
    Orthodox heretics can have their own patriarchs.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomdark View Post
    Yes. An antipapacy is actually just a claim on the title to the real papacy.
    Are you saying that for example if France supports an Antipope France may declare war on the Pope and try to force him to abdicate? Will other countries (for instances, the Holy Roman Emperor) be able to help the current Pope continue being Pope?

    Also, does the figure of Papal controller continue to exist? Do they get special benefits from the Pope like an higher likelihood of having their requests granted?
    I went to OT forum and all I got was this louzy sig.

  16. #16
    Really like what I am seeing here but i was wondering how you balance out the antipope thing. When you say characters in the kingdom cannot be excommunicated does the king count?

  17. #17
    What about Judaism? I don't think that Judaism can be ignored as the jews are very important in Spain at the time and even have independent territories near the Caspian sea. - until that nasty horde arrives...

    Of course the Jewish nations should be playable - nothing like a recreation of Israel 900 years premature

  18. #18
    Project Lead/Game Designer Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gottskalk View Post
    Really like what I am seeing here but i was wondering how you balance out the antipope thing. When you say characters in the kingdom cannot be excommunicated does the king count?
    He does.
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  19. #19
    This all will make for very interesting gameplay.

  20. #20
    Looks great.

    Out of curiosity though, will the Muslims AI countries fight amongst themselves to grab the Caliphate title, or does that just stay with one dynasty for the entire game?

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