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Thread: New Nations Mod (Updated for 1.3)

  1. #1
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    New Nations Mod (for patch 1.3) *Updated June 15*




    (NO LONGER AVAILABLE -- FOR THE AHD VERSION, GO HERE)



    The basic idea of this mod, as the name suggests, is to compile the many nations that existed, almost existed or could exist in the Victoria 2 timeframe, but were not added to the base game. It also includes events which facilitate the creation of these nations (British dominions having the possibility of being released, for instance) as well as irredentist decisions for countries once they exist.

    New Nations Mod is compatible with the Great War Mod, so long as you don't over-write the event modifier file-- the modifiers are already included here.


    NNM 1.6 Basic -- DOWNLOAD: This includes all the countries and events, but the new African nations are only present as cores. All the countries from the old Extended version are also present, but are placed via decision. If there's any you don't want, simply go into the Decisions folder and find the file marked "NNM - Country Name" and delete it. Eventually all the countries in this mod will be placed this way, for easier compatibility.

    NNM 1.6 African Add-On -- DOWNLOAD: This will add the new African countries as existing states at the beginning of the game.

    NNM 1.6 Optional Add-on -- DOWNLOAD: This changes the wargoal system to account for all the extra African nations (recommended!)*

    * = Sept 9th beta or later ONLY. See "The Optional Download" below for details.

    Simply unzip the contents of the file to your main Victoria 2 directory. The Africa Add-on pack (compiled by the hard work of Hibernian and Sabratha-- they deserve all credit) should be installed after the Basic version. The Optional Add-on may be added at any time.


    FEATURES

    New countries added:

    #Latin America
    Acre, Bahia, Belize, Entre Rios, Equador Confederation, Guyana, Los Altos, Oaxaca, Patagonia, Peru-Bolivia Confederation**, Rio Grande, Rio Grande do Sul**, Sonora, South Peru, Yucatan

    #Carribean
    Antigua, Bahamas, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Saint Kitts, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent, Trinidad

    #North America
    Alabama*, Alaska, Arkansas*, Dakota Republic*, Florida*, Georgia*, Iowa*, Illinois*, Indiana*, Kentucky*, Louisiana*, Michigan*, Minnesota*, Missouri*, Mississippi*, New Jersey*, New York*, North Carolina*, Nova Scotia, Ohio*, Oregon Country*, Pennsylvania*, Pueblo Republic*, South Carolina*, Tennessee*, Union of the Midwest*, Virginia*, West Virginia*, Wisconsin*

    #Europe
    Alsace, Asturias, Belarus, Brittany, Basqueland, Cornwall, Corsica, England*, Fiume, Galicia, Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernsey, Leon, Lorraine, Lusatia, Madeiras, Malta, Occitania, Rhineland, Saarland, Sapmi, Schleswig-Holstein**, Silesia, Wales, Westfalen

    #Russia
    Altai Republic, Astrakhan, Circassia**, Cossack Union, Dagestan**, Ingria, Kalmykia, Karelia, Kazakhstan, Kamchatka, Siberia, Tannu Tuva, Tatarstan, Ural Republic, Yakutia

    #Middle East
    Arabia*, Asir, Bahrain, Ha'il, Jordan, Kurdistan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan*, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Tajikstan*, Turkmenistan*, Turkestan*, Uzbekistan*

    #India
    Assam, Bengal, Bihar, Bombay, Ceylon

    #Eastern Asia
    Ainu, Kachin, Ryukyu**, Shan, Taiping*, Taiwan, Uyghurstan

    #Africa
    Angola*, Aro**, Ashanti**, Azande, Basotho**, Benin**, Botswana, Buganda**, Burundi**, Calabar**, Cyrenaica, Dahomey**, Damagaram**, Darfur**, Dendi**, Eritrea, Fouta Tooro**, Fuuta Jallon**, Gabu**, Geledi**, Kanem-Bornu**, Kazembe**, Kongo**, Kuba**, Loango**, Luba**, Lunda**, Majeerteen**, Mali Empire*, Massina**, Matabele**, Mongo, Mossi**, Mozambique*, Oyo**, Rwanda**, Segu**, Shewa**, Shona, Somalia*, Suazi**, Sudan, Toucouleur Empire*, Wadai**, Warri**, Wattara**, Wolof**, Xhosa**

    #Southeast Asia & Australasia
    Aotearoa, Bima, Indonesia*, Jambi**, Kalimantan, Lanfang**, Maluku, New South Wales, North Australia, North Queensland, Queensland, Sarawak*, Siak**, South Australia, South Island, Sulawesi**, Sulu**, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia

    #Pacific Islands
    Chuuk, Fiji**, Marianas, Marshall Islands, Micronesia*, Palau, Ponape, Tonga**, Yap

    -------------------------------

    * = cores do not exist at the start of the game, and only appear by event
    ** = appears as an existing nation at the start of the game (for African countries this is only with the Africa add-on)
    (bold) = most recent additions since the 1.40 version of NNM
    (italics) = may be removed from your game simply by deleting the file with their name in the Decisions folder

    National Flags of some of the most recent nations (this does not include all the new countries):




    Events & Decisions:
    -Arabian union has been reworked, with Hail and Nejd battling for dominance and several new events/decisions.
    -The Berlin Congress events from PDM have been added, for the European powers to try and dismantle the Ottoman Empire if it starts to decline.
    -New event chain for China's Taiping Rebellion (thanks to the PDM mod).
    -New event chain to simulate the fall of the Peru-Bolivia Confederation.
    -The "Disunited States" event chain, for a USA that becomes a dictatorship. The Union will begin to fall apart.
    -New union decisions for Indonesia, Romania, the Mali Empire, the Toucouleur Empire and Micronesia.
    -New event to simulate the dissolution of the United States of Central America.
    -New decision for the end of the United Kingdom, if both Ireland and Scotland leave.
    -New decision for the outside creation of Yugoslavia.
    -New events for the appearance of Turkic cores (such as Turkmenistan), as well as the ability for those nations to form a united Turkestan
    -New events for the independence of various countries such as the British dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa), Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland and Iceland) as well as numerous countries like Ireland and those under Austrian and Ottoman control. Also a number of events to help these along-- major rebellions like the January Uprising or the Moro Rebellion.
    -Irredentist events for Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia and Ecuador, once they become great powers.
    -Irredentist events for Rio Grande do Sul, Albania, Tatarstan, Yucatan, Yugoslavia and Mongolia.

    Additional Changes:
    -Lots of reworking of the cores and lands, much of it from the 1836 Improved mod by Capt Robau.
    -Africa's population has been increased (populations for the rest of the world were roughly correct for 1836, but Africa was not). This is according to Hibernian's research, and he's done the work to go through the population files and increase where necessary-- there's a .txt file included detailing exactly what he's done and where. These population changes are only in the African add-on version. The Basic version leaves Africa as it is, and only adds the new African nations as cores.
    -Union nations can only form from countries that are not other nations' vassals. This, combined with Schleswig-Holstein and the events combined with it, should keep NGF/Germany from forming very early... and also prevent the day 1 Austrian/Prussian war with Denmark.
    -Many adjacencies added in Indonesia, the Phillipines and the Caribbean. Also added a crossing from Gotland and Bornholm to mainland Sweden, a crossing from Spain to Morocco, and a crossing from Isle of Man to Ireland and Scotland. The Golden Horn has been made a land connection, which will make "the Ottoman Empire" display over the entire country rather than being split between Ottoman Asia and Ottoman Europe.
    -Norway begins the game as a vassal.
    -Russia begins the game at war with Circassia and Dagestan
    -Brazil begins the game at war with Rio Grande do Sul (the War of the Farrapos)
    -Tunisia begins the game as an Ottoman vassal (release event in 1881, and possibly sooner)
    -Potosi state split into Potosi and Antofagasta; Arequipa state split into Arequipa and Arica; Yemen split into Sana'a and Aden.
    -A bunch of cores changed for many countries (as per Hibernian's recommendations)
    -Alaska and the American Southwest (under Mexican control to start) changed to colonies.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    THE OPTIONAL DOWNLOAD
    This changes the wargoals system in the following ways:
    • the AI will use CB's such as Free Peoples and Release Vassal more frequently.
    • the AI will not attempt to acquire states unless they are bordering or coastal-- so no grabbing land in the middle of nowhere.
    • Establish Protectorate and Demand Concession CB's are more expensive initially and reduce in Infamy cost once Nationalism & Imperialism is researched-- for everywhere but Africa. Both CB's cost less Infamy once the Berlin Conference event fires, for everywhere including Africa.
    • The Brother's War CB is not available until State & Government is researched.
    • The Berlin Conference event will fire sometime after 1880, once a nation has the ability to colonize Africa. When that happens, events will appear for any sphered African minor to try and annex them (they may resist). Also, a new "Scramble for Africa" CB will appear, allowing a free conquest of any African minor that neighbors you.


    CREDITS
    -Trovador, for the original New Nations Mod (from version 1.1 and before);
    -Hibernian & Sabratha: they're responsible for Africa and Southeast Asia and much more besides;
    -Orinsul, for many nations and decisions here, plus a lot of the work on the Disunited States;
    -Naselus, for Jordan, Palestine & Arabia, as well as permission to adapt his Taiping Rebellion work from PDM;
    -CaptRobau, for many things incorporated from his 1836 Improved mod;
    -The Divergences mod, for the new CB's added to the African nation add-on pack;
    -chann, for the Oceanian nations from his Australia/NZ Improvement Mod, as well as Fiume and Kurdistan;
    -Evil Weasel, for states from his Western European Minorities and Revolters mod;
    -Tunch Khan, for the Middle Eastern nations from his Ottomania Mod;
    -Toppins, for the USCA dissolution event;
    -The Wookiee, for Byelorussian and English flags;
    -Ijtzoi, for his Micronesia & Microstates mod;
    -JuniorD, for the Carribean states from his The Commonwealth of Nations mod;
    -gorefest, for his Norway improvement mod;
    -VIP1 for the use of some of their flags;
    Many others - general ideas (thank you all!)


    I will attempt to keep this mod updated occasionally, so any reports of bugs or suggestions are certainly welcome.
    Last edited by Rylock; 16-04-2013 at 19:10. Reason: updated

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Alternate Download Mirrors:

    NNM v1.60 - Filesmelt
    NNM v1.60 - Africa Add-On Pack - Filesmelt
    NNM v1.60 - Optional Add-On - Filesmelt



    CHANGELOG

    From 1.60:
    - Added Kuwait.
    - Added numerous adjacencies, primarily in the Caribbean, Indonesian islands and the Phillipines. Also added straits linking Bornholm and Gotland to mainland Sweden, as well as straits linking the Isle of Man to Scotland and Ireland. Added a strait linking Spain to Morocco.
    - The mod is now compatible with the Great War mod, so long as you don't over-write NNM's event modifiers file.
    - Added Peruvian cores to Ecuadorian Pastaza.
    - Added Chilean cores to Arica and Iquique.
    - lots of bug-fixes.

    From 1.50:
    *Nations added:
    -Ainu
    -Asir
    -Bahrain
    -Botswana
    -Carribean states
    -Ha'il
    -Ingria
    -Lanfang
    -Luzica
    -Mali Empire
    -Micronesia & Pacific states
    -Mongo
    -Oaxaca
    -Sapmi
    -Schleswig-Holstein
    -Shona
    -Sulu
    -Toucouleur Empire

    *Decisions/Events added:
    -Re-worked the Arabian peninsula-- added Ha'il from 1836 Improved, gave Nejd back to the Ottoman Empire. Reduced Yemen and added cores for Asir. Also re-worked the Arabian union decisions: Nejd and Ha'il will fight for dominance, and then claim the Hedjaz once the other is defeated. Added events for the Arab Revolt as well as the appearance of ibn Saud.
    -Added the Berlin Congress events from PDM, which begin if the Ottoman Empire begins to decline. The European powers will be invited to the congress to either "stabilize the Balkans" or "keep the Empire strong", with two possible results. The Ottoman Empire may defy the Congress.
    -Added union decisions for the Mali Empire & the Toucouleur Empire in Africa.
    -Added the "January Uprising", a major Polish rebellion which occured in Russia.
    -Belgium will now become either Wallonia or Flanders if the other state is lost.
    -added events for Colonial Spain: a bunch for Cuba, Phillipines and Puerto Rico all related to them seeking independence. Main highlight is the Maine Incident which triggered the Spanish-American war.
    -Sulu will be annexed by Spain if it remains in Spain's sphere after 1850.
    -Union decision for Pacific Islands to form Micronesia.
    -Schleswig-Holstein replaces Schleswig and Holstein (though those cores still exist). NGF/Germany cannot form until Schleswig-Holstein is no longer a vassal-- there are events now for the 1848 war between Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein and various ways it can work out afterwards.
    -Wallachia and Moldavia may peacefully unite to form Romania even if they are still vassals, provided one of them has Nationalism & Imperialism researched. Romania can become free later if the Berlin Congress events fire.
    -Liberia has an event to become independent, and also may claim its interior cores at the same time.

    *Other changes:
    -Norway is now a vassal of Sweden.
    -Incorporated a lot of land and core changes from 1836 Improved. Patagonia is now terra nullius, and both Chile and Argentina will get decisions to occupy sometime between 1850 and 1870. Netherlands now controls less land in Indonesia. Egyptian cores are removed from the Levant.

    From 1.40:

    *Nations added:
    -American states (for the "Disunited States" event)
    -Angola
    -Ashanti
    -Basotho
    -Benin
    -Buganda
    -Calabar
    -Dahomey
    -Darfur
    -Indonesia
    -Kanem-Bornu
    -Karelia
    -Kuba
    -Luba
    -Lunda
    -Massina
    -Matabele
    -Mozambique
    -Oyo
    -Ruanda
    -Sarawak
    -Segu
    -Silesia
    -Suazi
    -Urundi
    -Wadai
    -Xhosa

    *Decisions/Events added:
    -the "Disunited States", which adds cores for all American states if the USA becomes a non-democracy. This also includes secession events, as well as decisions for those states to potentially re-form the CSA or join an independent Canada.
    -adapted the Taiping Rebellion events from PDM to work in vanilla.
    -any southeast asian nation has a decision to unite Indonesia if it controls all of Sumatra, Java, Sulawesi and Bali (at a minimum).
    -added the "Berlin Conference" event, after which African minors may be annexed if sphered and neighboring GP's get a free CB to establish a protectorate (for the Extended version only, or with the optional download).
    -added decision for Krakow to form Poland, and also to join Poland if it already exists.
    -added decisions for Portugal to create Angola and Mozambique cores.
    -added decisions for an outside power to create Arabia and Yugoslavia as a vassal.
    -added event for the creation of Sarawak in 1841, as well as a decision for UK to create a protectorate in 1888.
    -added decisions for Ethopia and Shewa to unite the nation and clear the others' cores, should they wipe the other out.
    -added a decision for Somaliland to be created by either Geledi or Majeerteen.

    *Other changes:
    -changed the CB's (this is an optional download) to do the following:
    *after the Berlin Conference, neighbors get a "Scramble for Africa" CB to establish a protectorate (for 2 Infamy)
    *after the Berlin Conference, "Add to African Sphere" CB can be used for 0 Infamy
    *The "Establish Protectorate" CB available only after researching Nationalism & Imperialism
    *"Demand Concession" costs 6 Infamy at first, and 4 after researching Nationalism & Imperialism
    *"Conquest" is cheaper for uncivs based on their size (the minimum being 10 Infamy).
    -edited the "Congo Conference" to take into account the presence of Luba, Lunda and Kuba. Also changed it to exclude Asian and African powers, and fixed some of the bugs in the vanilla code (that no doubt meant some events never fired).
    -included Hibernian's increases to the African population (not in the Regular version of the mod, however, though it can be included via the African add-on).

    From 1.30:

    -Irredentist decision for Tatarstan
    -Nationalism events for Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikstan: their cores will appear if the nation occupying their capital province has Revolution & Counterrevolution (and their previous nations no longer exist, with regards to Kokand for Kyrgyzstan and Khiva & Bukkhara for Uzbekistan).
    -Kokand has a decision to become Kyrgyzstan once it is civilized and has State & Government.
    -Khiva and Bukkhara have a decision to become Uzbekistan once they are civilized and have State & Government, and the other nation no longer exists.
    -Any of the Turkic nations (Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan, Kazakhstan & Uyghurstan) can use a decision to unite into Turkestan. It's not a cultural union per se, but operates on similar principles.
    -The first of China or Japan to civilize can use a decision to inherit an AI Rykukyu.

    *General changes:
    -Removed Poland cores from several Prussian provinces & added them to Tesin and Pastavy, at recommendation of Sabratha
    -added Tatarstan into Regular edition
    -removed Krasnoyarsk, Lorraine & Tartary (Tartary is now Altai Republic)
    -Russian added as an accepted culture for both Kamchatka and Yakutia

    From 1.20:

    -Russia begins the game at war with Circassia and Dagestan
    -Brazil begins the game at war with Rio Grande do Sul (the War of the Farrapos)
    -Tunisia begins the game as an Ottoman vassal (release event in 1881, and possibly sooner)
    -Potosi state split into Potosi and Antofagasta; Arequipa state split into Arequipa and Arica.
    -A bunch of cores changed for many countries (as per Hibernian's recommendations)
    -state religion fixed for Mongolia, Bhutan and Tibet
    -Poland removed as a union country (there are no Polish countries other than Krakow to unite, and union cores do not permit nationalists to appear-- so Polish pops in Prussia, Austria and Russia will never rebel).
    -many pops in Corsica changed to North Italian.
    -many pops in Brittany changed to Breton culture (which has been added).
    -Siebenburgen changed to Romanian primary culture, with Hungarian as accepted (so Romanians there can rebel; Hungarian pops in that area already have Hungary cores they can rebel to).
    -Alaska and the American Southwest (under Mexican control to start) changed to colonies.

    Some of the new African nations shown:



    National Flags of some of the new nations (from v. 0.4):

    Last edited by Rylock; 27-06-2011 at 19:49.

  3. #3
    Looks like a very good update to an already-great mod. Downloading now.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    The problem with Alaska is that if say, France gets in it a war, its called French Russia, i think Alaskan cores should fix that. Its not really important but it bugs me, especially when it becomes the French USSR or the French Russian Republic etc
    Ah, I see... so not a vassal country, just Alaskan cores. And if a player wishes to release Alaska as a vassal, they're free to do so. Yes, that would probably work.

    As for russia interior, it is a huge area where russians are a minority and yet the game gave it no national revolts and grouped the central asian and mongol culture groups so awkwardly that union-tags wont really work there.
    it just made no sense in Victoria and now in Victoria II that russia might spend half the game with everything from the urals to the sea under rebel control due to the higher revolt risk from minority cultures but as they never had anything to revolt too they always stayed Russia, just under perpetual rebel control. You cant only by where revolts historically happened, as the game doesnt let the world be stable where it was historically stable as then itd be a movie not a game.
    I don't disagree-- that's one of the reasons for adding in additional countries and cores where they belong, period. BUT I think there also has to be some basis for a country to appear, as in some actual nationalism or an "idea" of the country that nationalists can unite behind. Otherwise they're simply rabble. Countries don't simply appear by default, because someone has lost control over the territory.

    With the Colonials, Decision based nations are atleast in my mind, better. Easier to merge with other mods as you dont need to muck about in the provinces files and they work with the Mod Directory. So Post-Colonial Nations should be easy enough to set up. Its just again that Victoria II has a culture based nationalism but no nations for the majority of culture and culture groups to revolt into to, so there is instability and revolts but nothing ever comes of it.
    Yes, if cores don't appear except by event it certainly does make it more compatible with other mods... and that would be the case for post-colonial Africa. I'm not sure that it's really something I agree with on the whole. Most of the post-colonial African nations don't exist as an idea of an actual country... and won't until well after WW2. Again, just because there can be rebels running around a country doesn't mean they'll unite and form a country.

    That said, it's why I have the two versions of the mod. If someone doesn't mind having things despite their plausibility, there's always the extended version for them to use.

  5. #5
    Hey, I really want to try out this mod, but every time I try to run it I get the message
    File Exemption:Exemption in:discfile.cpp, line:431
    description:could not open file:common/countries/Rio Grande.txt

    The problem could always just be that I installed the mood wrong.
    thanks for your help

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsfan1000 View Post
    Hey, I really want to try out this mod, but every time I try to run it I get the message
    File Exemption:Exemption in:discfile.cpp, line:431
    description:could not open file:common/countries/Rio Grande.txt

    The problem could always just be that I installed the mood wrong.
    thanks for your help
    Nope, you're correct-- it looks like I forgot to actually put the Rio Grande country file in the zip.

    I've changed the links to point to a new zip, so re-downloading should do the trick. Sorry about that.

  7. #7
    The Guardian of Divergences Athalcor's Avatar
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    Some suggestions: Greenland, Majorca, Canary Islands, Occitania or Provence, Silesia, Salzburg, Ferrara, United Baltic Duchy, Somaliland, African kingdoms of Sahel, Arabia, Maldives, Indonesia, Pontianak, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uyghuristan, Makedonia (the Greek one).
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    My two other shamefully abandoned AARs...(there is also a third one hiding in the corners of the V2 AARland, not even worth linking)


  8. #8
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    Some suggestions: Greenland, Majorca, Canary Islands, Occitania or Provence, Silesia, Salzburg, Ferrara, United Baltic Duchy, Somaliland, African kingdoms of Sahel, Arabia, Maldives, Indonesia, Pontianak, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uyghuristan, Makedonia (the Greek one).
    Arabia is included. Occitania is also included (in the Extended version). Of the rest, there's maybe a few that might work in the Regular version-- I wouldn't mind creating the "-stan" countries and creating events to allow them to be created.

    Interestingly, Xinjiang is in the main game... which is probably intended to represent the Xinjiang Clique from the warlord era, but which has a Beifaren primary pop and almost no Beifaren's in the region. So the chances of Xinjiang ever establishing itself naturally are almost negligible. Uyghuristan, however, did have nationalism starting in the early 20th century and covers the exact same cores as Xinjiang.

    Indonesia also seems like it would need something to be done... though having an actual concept of Indonesia as one nation is probably out of period.
    Last edited by Rylock; 19-04-2011 at 04:51.

  9. #9
    General Hibernian's Avatar
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    Good to see that you've updated this Rylock.

    One question though, have you just used my PDM core fix files or did you re-edit the vanilla game files? Because the province files that I changed used PDM resources and such, and won’t work properly with vanilla.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Rylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    One question though, have you just used my PDM core fix files or did you re-edit the vanilla game files? Because the province files that I changed used PDM resources and such, and won’t work properly with vanilla.
    I used the information you posted on the PDM forums indicating the province ID's, and used the Vanilla 1.3 files for those provinces-- which was a lot of work, but there was really no choice since (as you point out) the PDM versions wouldn't work anyhow. I had to change a few things, and in some cases I assigned extra cores as an irredentist decision that the country can invoke (the extra Albanian cores, for example, or Yucatan claiming Mayan provinces), but for the most part I followed the info that you laid out. Very useful.

  11. #11
    General Hibernian's Avatar
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    Ok, that's cool.

    As we were discussing in PM, we can integrate the African Kingdoms being made for PDM into NNM. Though I don't known when I'll be able to get round to starting that.

  12. #12
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    Incidentally, I've been looking at the various -stan countries... when would these come into existence? At the start of the came we have Bukkhara and Khiva and Kokand, but when and how should these countries transform into something else? I was thinking perhaps the cores could appear when the capital is occupied and when any previously-existing country in that area ceases to exist (so Kyrgyzstan would appear when Bishkek was owned by someone and Kokand ceased to be, for example). But perhaps that's speaking from ignorance.

    Would anyone know?
    Last edited by Rylock; 19-04-2011 at 06:30.

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    Yeah, I'm not sure about those. The best way to represent them would probably be as Post-Colonial nations.

    If you remember we had a discussion about Kazakhstan in one of the PDM threads and although it probably isn’t that accurate to have its cores there from the beginning (since there probably wasn’t a unified Kazakh nationalism in 1836), we decided it was easier to put it in rather than create many small Kazakh Khanates.

    Something similar can be done for the other “Stans”, perhaps just leave the states as they are now, but create some event that if they get conquered (presumably by Russia), then add in the modern country cores around 1900 and remove the old kingdom’s cores.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernian View Post
    Something similar can be done for the other “Stans”, perhaps just leave the states as they are now, but create some event that if they get conquered (presumably by Russia), then add in the modern country cores around 1900 and remove the old kingdom’s cores.
    Perhaps, though it's not quite that simple. Kyrgyzstan matches up with Kokand nicely, but both Bukkhara and Khiva are Uzbek. Which one must be conquered in order to create Uzbekistan? Both? And then there's Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, which don't line up with any existing country. I suppose I could treat those two in the same way as Kazakhstan, though I'm leery about having cores for them right from the get-go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Incidentally, I've been looking at the various -stan countries... when would these come into existence? At the start of the came we have Bukkhara and Khiva and Kokand, but when and how should these countries transform into something else? I was thinking perhaps the cores could appear when the capital is occupied and when any previously-existing country in that area ceases to exist (so Kyrgyzstan would appear when Bishkek was owned by someone and Kokand ceased to be, for example). But perhaps that's speaking from ignorance.

    Would anyone know?
    For the -stans, why need new countries? just have it as the democracy or con-mon name so it happens late game. new tags arent really needed for the central asian coutnries that already exist in the base game.
    For Uzbekistan, a decision to from for either who conquers the other to form it. But really, why not just choose whichever one the capital is in and give it Uzbekistan as the modern governments name.

    And yourve got Saar and the Rhineland states as implausible! Not only without them is it impossible to get a left bank french-german border, but they are plausible as Buffer-States between the two, Saarland actually did! and the others are just geographical for a larger buffer, it could be argued that the french occupation of the rhineland would be best represented as such, who it would be a puppet of would be a question but still, hardly in the same league as occitania and cornwall as one is historical and the other two exist purely to allow for plausibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    I don't disagree-- that's one of the reasons for adding in additional countries and cores where they belong, period. BUT I think there also has to be some basis for a country to appear, as in some actual nationalism or an "idea" of the country that nationalists can unite behind. Otherwise they're simply rabble. Countries don't simply appear by default, because someone has lost control over the territory.
    They exist as ideas of nations much as KOK, or KHI or BUK exist or Nejd for that matter and alot more then Hedjaz, If russia lost control of central asia, it wouldnt just stay russia but the game doesnt have room in it for land not ruled by a state but commanded by horse nomads who definitely wouldn't let russian soldiers travel through it, Just having an event that empties the land wouldnt stop troops and wouldnt put up resistance to russias return, a Country does, its not a state in the modern sense, but neither is half the countries that exist on day one of the base game. This makes them plausible, and in no way comparable to something like occatania.
    Not only does the game need them as Russia is immortal without them as without states to break up into there is no consequence to instability. But they are plausible, and a couple are historical.
    The Tartars had nationalism and revolted a few times through the period in hope if independance, actually having a couple independant states during the civil war in the early soviet [URA among them]. so its alot more plausible than Brittany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    Yes, if cores don't appear except by event it certainly does make it more compatible with other mods... and that would be the case for post-colonial Africa. I'm not sure that it's really something I agree with on the whole. Most of the post-colonial African nations don't exist as an idea of an actual country... and won't until well after WW2. Again, just because there can be rebels running around a country doesn't mean they'll unite and form a country.

    That said, it's why I have the two versions of the mod. If someone doesn't mind having things despite their plausibility, there's always the extended version for them to use.
    African Nationalism started kicking around as early as the 1880s, although mostly white lead at that stage but it was always a serious thing. And it doesnt need Nationalism, losing a world war is a much more plausible way for a post-colonial nation to come into being than bands of rebels.
    What would be good for the post-colonial would be something along the lines of French West Africa, British West Africa etc rather than historical ones, although by different names. As the post-colonial nations borders cannot be defined pre-game as they would have to depend on who colonises what. It would be good if like EU3 Nationalist rebels could place cores but instead decisions will have to do it.
    but i was thinking a late-game decision for France, UK, Germany and maybe Spain to places post-colonial cores dynamically in their african colonies. ike for the southern coast of west africa the bits owned by france might get a French West Africa, or maybe Great_Power 1 could get a West Africa 1 with a different style or something.
    however itll work there has to be more than one West Africa, probably 3, or else only one empire can fall plausibly.

    if it were up me all new nations cores would be placed by Decisions, mostly day-one ones. As with Victoria II's current modding limitations it just makes sense. And probably would take less time than editing all the individual province files as well, atleast if youre happy with using whole Victoria II regions as definitions rather than historical borders which makes the most sense gamewise anyway give how much the game expects regions to be whole. And for the few who require it not to be states are small enough for province definitions in the decision anyway.
    Probably one decision activated on day-one by every nation in the world could place every core. And then the late-game editions, post-colonials and what have you could each have their own.
    Last edited by Orinsul; 19-04-2011 at 08:29.
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    The stan countries are also a bit artificial - just compare the extent of the Tajik culture and of the actual Tajikistan. IMHO do not do tags for cultures that already have countries (like Uzbeks) but only for those that do not have one. They could be artificial = post-colonial or you can give use them to depict both historical entities and modern 'nationstates'. As an example, in DVG I use the TKM tag for Turkmenistan and as for abs-mon/pru-con it is called Salor Confederation (a former large tribal union in that area).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    For the -stans, why need new countries? just have it as the democracy or con-mon name so it happens late game. new tags arent really needed for the central asian coutnries that already exist in the base game.
    For Uzbekistan, a decision to from for either who conquers the other to form it. But really, why not just choose whichever one the capital is in and give it Uzbekistan as the modern governments name.
    They may need new countries because currently neither the Turkmen nor the Tajiks have tags they can rebel to. The Uzbeks, meanwhile, have two.

    So I could indeed make Kokand have a government name as Kyrgyzstan, that's not really going to work for either of the others... especially since the current capital of Uzbekistan, Tashkent, is under Kokand's control.

    And yourve got Saar and the Rhineland states as implausible! Not only without them is it impossible to get a left bank french-german border, but they are plausible as Buffer-States between the two, Saarland actually did! and the others are just geographical for a larger buffer, it could be argued that the french occupation of the rhineland would be best represented as such, who it would be a puppet of would be a question but still, hardly in the same league as occitania and cornwall as one is historical and the other two exist purely to allow for plausibility.
    My idea of plausibility is primarily related to how prevalent nationalism is in the region, or at the very least have a culture they can rebel to and a national identity for the time period. Or having existed as a result of a rebellion, even if it doesn't have its own culture (like Rio Grande do Sul). Saarland did exist, briefly, as an artificial state-- but that's it. The Rhineland never has, and while someone could conceivably create it as an artificial state it clearly belongs in the Extended version.

    This is not to say that the particular category couldn't change for a few countries-- the Caribbean nations in particular probably should be moved to the Extended version, for instance, and Cornwall probably belongs in the Regular edition... but in the case of these German states I don't really see a reason to move them.

    They exist as ideas of nations much as KOK, or KHI or BUK exist or Nejd for that matter and alot more then Hedjaz, If russia lost control of central asia, it wouldnt just stay russia but the game doesnt have room in it for land not ruled by a state but commanded by horse nomads who definitely wouldn't let russian soldiers travel through it, Just having an event that empties the land wouldnt stop troops and wouldnt put up resistance to russias return, a Country does, its not a state in the modern sense, but neither is half the countries that exist on day one of the base game. This makes them plausible, and in no way comparable to something like occatania.
    Not only does the game need them as Russia is immortal without them as without states to break up into there is no consequence to instability. But they are plausible, and a couple are historical.
    I disagree. Regardless, that's what the Extended version is there for.

    The Tartars had nationalism and revolted a few times through the period in hope if independance, actually having a couple independant states during the civil war in the early soviet [URA among them]. so its alot more plausible than Brittany.
    And yet I can find no actual mention of any particular Tartar state outside of Crimea, or even mention of nationalism-- even determining what would make for good borders had to rely more on the existence of Tartar pops in the game then any kind of actual historical reference beyond really old references to Tartary/Tartaria (and the existence of a Tartaria region in the game). Neither can I find any mention of a Ural state. So if you have any references for these, they'd be appreciated. Otherwise, if they're just there to give areas for someone to release, they belong in the Extended version.

    Breton nationalism, however, I can at least find reference to... and that extends to nationalism that exists during the game's time period.

    African Nationalism started kicking around as early as the 1880s, although mostly white lead at that stage but it was always a serious thing. And it doesnt need Nationalism, losing a world war is a much more plausible way for a post-colonial nation to come into being than bands of rebels.
    What would be good for the post-colonial would be something along the lines of French West Africa, British West Africa etc rather than historical ones, although by different names. As the post-colonial nations borders cannot be defined pre-game as they would have to depend on who colonises what. It would be good if like EU3 Nationalist rebels could place cores but instead decisions will have to do it.
    but i was thinking a late-game decision for France, UK, Germany and maybe Spain to places post-colonial cores dynamically in their african colonies. ike for the southern coast of west africa the bits owned by france might get a French West Africa, or maybe Great_Power 1 could get a West Africa 1 with a different style or something.
    however itll work there has to be more than one West Africa, probably 3, or else only one empire can fall plausibly.
    Dynamically-created African nations aren't really something that I can imagine doing-- I'm not even sure how that would be accomplished, or what the culture of such a nation would be (it'd have to be set beforehand if any cultures are going to rebel to it) or when the cores would come into existence. I'm not convinced that African nationalism actually existed that far back-- and by that I mean an actual identity of any post-colonial nations as countries, with the people of that culture united in wanting to be that country-- but if they existed they'd probably have to roughly line up with modern post-colonial countries and cultures (and have the cores placed once the region is colonized, by whomever). Indeed, the modern borders don't matter so much considering any rebels only need control whatever cores the country they're in owns.

    If you have a better way of doing it, however, be my guest.

    Beyond that, there are some additional pre-colonial African nations I'd like to see added-- Hibernian has been working on a few of them for PDM.
    Last edited by Rylock; 19-04-2011 at 10:04.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    The stan countries are also a bit artificial - just compare the extent of the Tajik culture and of the actual Tajikistan. IMHO do not do tags for cultures that already have countries (like Uzbeks) but only for those that do not have one. They could be artificial = post-colonial or you can give use them to depict both historical entities and modern 'nationstates'. As an example, in DVG I use the TKM tag for Turkmenistan and as for abs-mon/pru-con it is called Salor Confederation (a former large tribal union in that area).
    The cores for a Tajikstan could indeed extend as far south as the Farrah region of Afghanistan-- one could argue (in game terms) that the Soviets released Tajikstan in its current form because those were the only cores of the nation it controlled. The question, really, is when such cores should come into being (if ever).

    I like the idea of using a different name for the monarchy, though-- if any of these cores exist from the beginning of the game (like Turkmenistan) that's a far more likely version of the nation for them to rebel to.
    Last edited by Rylock; 19-04-2011 at 09:26.

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    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    And yet I can find no actual mention of any particular Tartar state outside of Crimea, or even mention of nationalism-- even determining what would make for good borders had to rely more on the existence of Tartar pops in the game then any kind of actual historical reference beyond really old references to Tartary/Tartaria (and the existence of a Tartaria region in the game). Neither can I find any mention of a Ural state. So if you have any references for these, they'd be appreciated. Otherwise, if they're just there to give areas for someone to release, they belong in the Extended version.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Rylock View Post
    They may need new countries because currently neither the Turkmen nor the Tajiks have tags they can rebel to. The Uzbeks, meanwhile, have two.
    This seems to be my main problem, youre one hand saying Turkmen and Tajiks need a Tag to rebel in, while on the other youre saying that none of the russian subjugated altics or turkics should. How is Turkmenistan plausible, if Tatarstan is not? Why should you say one culture plausibly need a tag to revolt away into while at the same time you deny it to another?
    Surely Tatarstan is more possible, as it has easier access to education and by extension, liberal nationalism. Yes in history Turkic nationalism in russia was a small thing until the first world war, but historically russia kept the door to liberalism firmly shut, in the game that is not a possibility, Russia in game is as modern and as afflicted by modern concerns as england or austria and as a result if it liberalises it should suffer the liberal troubles.
    The turkic and mongol peoples of russia are entirely culturally, ethnically and religious different than their russian rulers. How is it more plausible that they should be trapped in perpetual oppression no matter the circumstances than that they should have a tag to revolt into should the conditions that provoke nationalists occur?

    As for you not being able to find it, this isnt the one i meant but a two second search found this link http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/flags/ru-idurh.html for 1918 tartar separatists. And as for where Tatarstan should be, why not where it is as a Victoria region, where it is as a 'republic' now and as a geographic region for centuries, or hey, where the cores were put the first time round as they were a reason not just on a whim.

    It is a maddening inconsistency to be calling for tags for unattached cultures to be revolt to at the same time as dismissing the exact same thing.
    how is it plausible or reasonable that austria have so hard a time holding together an empire of so disperate cultures when russia rules over more cultures and with greater differences between them have no trouble at all simply because there are no tags for those cultures to aspire to? Russia has unattachted cultures, that historically it had a much harder time keeping in line than the austrians ever did. But by the simple chance that the game doesnt come with break-aways for countries which didnt lose the first world war Russia is unbreakable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    This seems to be my main problem, youre one hand saying Turkmen and Tajiks need a Tag to rebel in, while on the other youre saying that none of the russian subjugated altics or turkics should. How is Turkmenistan plausible, if Tatarstan is not? Why should you say one culture plausibly need a tag to revolt away into while at the same time you deny it to another?
    Err... when did I say that Turkmenistan and Tajikistan would be in the Regular edition? They could simply go into the Extended edition, if I create them at all.

    Surely Tatarstan is more possible, as it has easier access to education and by extension, liberal nationalism. Yes in history Turkic nationalism in russia was a small thing until the first world war, but historically russia kept the door to liberalism firmly shut, in the game that is not a possibility, Russia in game is as modern and as afflicted by modern concerns as england or austria and as a result if it liberalises it should suffer the liberal troubles.
    The turkic and mongol peoples of russia are entirely culturally, ethnically and religious different than their russian rulers. How is it more plausible that they should be trapped in perpetual oppression no matter the circumstances than that they should have a tag to revolt into should the conditions that provoke nationalists occur?
    Just because rebels can form does not mean a new country should automatically occur. If a part of the country is taken over by rebels, it is still effectively out of control of the owner in terms of gameplay-- that does not mean that portion of the country will immediately form it's own nation. And I am not suggesting anyone should be "trapped in perpetual oppression"... this mod exists to provide alternatives, not to provide freedom to the masses. There is no need to speak to me as if I am an oppressor.

    As for you not being able to find it, this isnt the one i meant but a two second search found this link http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/flags/ru-idurh.html for 1918 tartar separatists. And as for where Tatarstan should be, why not where it is as a Victoria region, where it is as a 'republic' now and as a geographic region for centuries, or hey, where the cores were put the first time round as they were a reason not just on a whim.
    Excellent. Thank you for the link.

    It is a maddening inconsistency to be calling for tags for unattached cultures to be revolt to at the same time as dismissing the exact same thing.
    how is it plausible or reasonable that austria have so hard a time holding together an empire of so disperate cultures when russia rules over more cultures and with greater differences between them have no trouble at all simply because there are no tags for those cultures to aspire to? Russia has unattachted cultures, that historically it had a much harder time keeping in line than the austrians ever did. But by the simple chance that the game doesnt come with break-aways for countries which didnt lose the first world war Russia is unbreakable.
    The reason I split the mod into two sections was to give options, and separate nations that were either made-up or unlikely into another area for those who want it-- and if you feel that Russia or any other country is in need of additional areas for areas to rebel to or be released as, there you go. If you have a case for why a country should be moved back over to the Regular version, feel free to make it. If it's that maddening, however, then feel free to change the mod for your own purposes or not use it at all. It's up to you.

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