Day of Glory (MP megacampaign)

[FrozenWall]

Point of fact: the steppe peoples did develop heavy cavalry

Indeed, their rusty remains are still dug up by Russian and Persian farmers.

[King of Men]

Point of fact: the steppe peoples did develop heavy cavalry, and prior to its military decline, the Mongol Empire's tumen actually contained probably the largest proportion of heavy cavalry of any army in the world at that time, at 4,000 heavy cavalry of 10,000 total soldiers.

Mongol heavy cavalry tactics were actually surprisingly similar in many respects to Maurician Byzantine cataphract tactics. Both relied on a combined arms cooperation between mounted archery and heavy (melee) cavalry, using archery to disrupt formations and then the heavy cavalry to actually kill people.

Yes, fair enough; but that was the formal Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan, and in OTL at that. I'm asserting that in this history, the heavy-cavalry tradition decayed because there was no tribute structure to maintain the supplies it needed; remember that our Mongols were turned back at the very borders of the CK map - we never had a system of Russian tributary states and there was certainly no question of them reaching Hungary and Poland. I'm not saying that the steppe tribes have never seen heavy cavalry before; just that they don't have the supplies of grain and iron they need to maintain a large striking force of them, nor do they have the living tradition of passing down that set of skills, as they do with light-cavalry tactics. Conversely, of course, the Roman heavy-cavalry tradition survived beyond 1071, because there was no Manzikert to kill off most of the people who had the skills for it. Compare the Ottoman Empire's loss at Lepanto, not of galley hulls (which indeed were quickly replaced) but of the corps of compund-bow archers that gave them firepower.

[Emperor Ike]

Caliphs of our time

So the years passed and Jawhar Fatimid grew old. Too old actually and soon he passed away taking the glory of the Fatimid dynasty with him. With his last will he made Egypt an Republic Caliphate where the Caliph would be elected every eight years. The first elected Caliph would be Muhammad Izzet who reign from the death of Jawhar in February 18th 1419 to the end of his term in 23th of February 1427. Not much happened during his reign except the colonization of Dongola in to the Caliphate. After his term Izzet retired in Cairo were he lived the rest of his life.

3rd Caliph was Ahmad Negib who ruled from his election to the February 20th 1435. His reign was much more interesting as he embarked on a quest to unify the realm by going against his vassals. The first victim was the Qasim Khanate in Tripolitania, Corfu and Cyrenaica. The campaign lasted for a year and the Caliphate armies were succesful Tripolitania (later renamed as Tivolitania) was added to the Caliphates domain and Qasim Khanate remained as the subject of Egypt. Also the province of Bieber next of Dongola was colonized for Egypt. Not much is known what Caliph Negib did after his retirment.

The next one to rule was Murad Asker. Who ruled from 20th February 1435 to 15th February 1443. Asker was known as the reformer as he issued the Licensing of the Press Act as well as took Tunisia, Gafsa and Gaines from the vassals peacefully. Also during his reing Aghraba was converted to the true faith. He died in his home after his retirement.

Then the next Caliphate was the son of Muhammad Izzet, Mansur Izzet. He ruled from 15th February 1443 to 19th February 1451. His reign only saw the transfer of Corfu to the Romans. Then came the Caliphs that did almost nothing. Tariq Nazhar ruled from 19th February 1451 to 17th February 1459, he managed only to colonize Rio de Oro. Died later of food poisoning. Then the next one was his brother Torgud Nazhar who ruled from 17th of February 1459 to 1st of April 1467. He only loss of Rio to the natives.

Then after the term of the Nazhar's the next Caliph was Abû Bakr Reis. Many said that his rule was to be the reign of great conquest and achievements. Much prosperity was to come for Egypt in the guidance of Bakr Reis. Some even said that he would be as great as the Fatimid's once were and would establish the Fatimid Caliphate once again under the rule of the Fatimids. But then again some said that he would be just like the other Caliphs had been. Too afraid to do great things, too afraid to go against the enemies of the realm. Too afraid to liberate the infidels from their false faith and bring the enlightenment of Islam to the people.

What ever the future hold for Egypt one thing was certain, the deeds done by Bakr Reis would go down in history as either a great success or as a failure. He would be remembered as Hero of Islam or as a failed caliph.


Hurrah for Ra! He lives up over there and He comes up over there and He goes down over there. And we chase him on a camel but He really goes so far. Hurrah for Ra! His a bit of a star.

[OrangeYoshi]

I just found a (very) old detailed analysis of this game from back in CK, in 1170. It seems it was uncannily insightful. I've added bold to the parts of it which have offered the most foreshadowing.

Rise and Fall of the Fatherland Part 2:

What determines the rise and fall of empires? A complex question arising in the minds of politicians, sociologists, historians and 16 year olds with an ethernet connection and too much time on their hands alike. From the dawn of recorded history until now history has recorded the rise, growth, prosperity, expansion, stagnation, decline, retraction and collapse of countless empires. They were of varies sizes, strengths, and makeouts with seemingly the only common thread being that they all existed and for a time prospered and then eventually collapsed. History is like a glacier, slow, steady, ruthless, eventually all historical events are smoothed out flat before the inevitable onslaught of the march of time and with that hindsight, with that record beautifully preserved we are given the gift of hindsight that we can use to make our arcane predictions of the future. Now the stage is set, the actors are upon the stage and the curtains drawn the year is 1170 of the Common Era allowing us to behold the wartorn and divided continent of Europa. Within Europe are hundreds of theifdoms each one pledging loyalty to a lord who in turn pledges his loyalty and support to a even more powerful lord, who would support someone more powerful if the CK engine allowed for Emperor titles. Europe is a sad site, it's been nearly 800 years since the collapse of the great Roman Empire, the greatest military machine the world has ever known, its empire stretching over a million square miles and had conquered more lands and peoples in its history then any other force on earth ever has but Rome, the Eternal City has fallen, the last Emperor Romulus Augustus long since dead, Imperial authority disintigrated, and barbarians of all stripes having migrated, pillaged, and invaded their way across the former empire settling in places that will become the nations now known to us and setting the current stage of conflict.

The spread of Christianity, once one of the causes of Rome's fall was not without its own schisms, Islam, the religion of peace and submission to Allah the One God under the guidance of its Prophet Muhammad spread like wildfire from its humble origins in Mecca and Medina across much of the world of Alexander, spreading all the way to Spain and southern France before being checked and driven back at Lyons in the West and at Constantinople in the East where unable to expand further the Caliphate split between the Shiite and Sunni, those who felt descendants of Muhammed should become Caliph and those who felt anyone of sufficient piety and merit should ascend. With Rome's successor state, the Byzantine empire besieged Christendom mobilized, armies raised, interests and personalities clashed and they would fight each other as often as they fought the Islamic threat.

In our last meeting we had discussed and speculated upon the main players of this age, examined their strengths pointed out possible weaknesses and using our experience tried to predict their stars, as of now a certain amount of time has assuredly passed and while the resources, technologies, lands, and thinkers not yet exist for us in which these predictions to show their full relevance let us see how well we have done and how much we need to adjust for changing and unpredictable quantum circumstances.

1. Persia, last time we had declared that they were an empire "beset on all sides", Russia to the north, Byzantium to the northwest, and Egypt to the West and Southwestm and so far aside for a few modifications the situation hasn't changed, Persia has been significantly reduced in influence in the middle east, and what is worse is that Byzantium's destiny is now fully controled by King of Men instead of merely being one Baron of many, Egypt has fullly consolidated the Levant under their control and Russia is more powerful now than ever before, isolated with few friends in a position to help the Persians.

But Persia is not without some advantages, they appear to have finally settled the border with Russia in their favor establishing it firmly between Chechnya in Russia and Armenia in Persia, good relations with Russia could be the key to gaining/reclaiming influence in the middle east, and by being on the periphery has immediate access to expansion routes into Central Asia and India, routes that Egypt and Byzantium would have likely give u up on.

2. Egypt's position has remarkably improved since our last visit, while the strategic dilemna of having a large and mostly permeable coastline remain they're helped that via consolidated their position in the Levant, and their keen grasp on Spain either as an ally, protectorate or a vassal means that from the Atlantic to the Red Sea and the Eastern Mediteranium Egypt is a power not to be underestimate, it's size, manpower and wealth give it considerable power to defend its lands. In EU3 this gives them the almost assured ability to colonize and expand into Africa and lay claim to its gold mines, slave trade, ivory and expansive hinterlands to colonize into without interfearance.

But Egypts problems will however remains acute if hidden, the more of Africa they expand into will mean a much more complicated defense, their exposed north means they will need to maintain significant investments either diplomatically or militarily with a brownwater navy to defend independantly their many flanks.

3. byzantium: Their position now with a player at the helm has improved, their war against Crotia secured significant non trivial buffer in the Balkans though possibly at the cost of gaining the attention of Russia and with their border with Egypt to all appearances secured and their contributions to the Anti-German war noticed by the world Byzantium is in a good position to bide its time and expand wherever it needs to, and are in a commanding position in the med.

They are however not without cripplingly obvious weaknesses, Russia to their north is a behemoth to which every sneeze is an earthquake noticed in Constantinople severly limiting their actions. Croatia while defeated for now has more than doubled its size thanks to Russian intervention at the expense of Hungary and it is unlikely Byzantium could expand further at their expense further displaying the cramped cicumstances Byzantium finds itself in, without anywhere to expand into easily only a slow downward slope towards irrelevance remains unless they can find someway to expand at the expense of one or two of its neighbours, but such actions would certainly attract much unwanted attention and much careful diplomacy, is Byzantium up to the task to forge its destiny?

4. Poland: Poland made great strides in the last decade through acquiring Silesia and parts of Bohemia, which if it could acquire the remainder of would gaurante Poland significant reserves of coal and pig iron for future industrialization.

Alas the diplomatic front looks no better, Denmark, Germany, South Germany, Croatia, and Russia all border Poland, requiring an even more skillful oppurtunistic level of diplomacy to expand and prosper, luckily this goes both ways as it only takes bad or reckless diplomacy of one of Polands neighbours to give them the advantage, just as with Byz Russia is a direct neighbour and without allies in the west Poland is almost certainly within Russia's sphere and anything Poland does almost certainly needs the indirect or direct approval of the Kremlin. While the idea of a "poor freightened poland" currying favor and aid from the west could work in a bid to expand into Belarus its almost a deathwish should it fail, leaving poland realistically only able to expand on the bones of the enemies of the Rus, the Keys to greatness are nearly out of reach but are they imposibly so?

5. Denmark: Denmark has virtually in a single stroke assured its place in history with the acquisition of England, Wales, and Scotland, giving them the keen edge in any future colonial race for the new world, providing the wealth in agriculture, in coal and iron. While Russia borders them in the far north in scandinavia the difficult terrain would make any attack costly, making it in the interest of them to maintain cordial relations. Denmark also has a foothold in northern Germany which could in theory open up the Rhine and its wealth though competition from the current German major nation will make this unlikely, in fact Denmark is blssed that by having this foothold, even if it grows incresingly expensive to maintain, keeping it doesnt particularily help Denmark, allowing to possible cede unneeded mainland european lands to focus more on maritime developments.

Diplomatically Denmark by being in the periphery can hold its own with only fairly modest diplomacy. Open access to the north sea and ample coastline would give them a moderate navy, with sufficient trade and income it shouldnt be impossible for denmark to rule the waves...

6. Toledo: A new comer onto the scene, this bustling vassal of Egypt with its easy access to the atlantic, its decent size and considerable support from Egypt could in time easily become a maritime power to be reckoned with.

Their disadvantages thus far is that South Germany is fairly powerful, and you never know just how tight the leesh from Egypt may be, and any major colonial venture will surely find competition at some point with Denmark, forcing it to have to answer the age old question of whether it can be a hybdrid land and sea power or if it has to focus on only one or the other.

7. Germany (Hannover): Unquestionably the most powerful Western European nation, its position along the rhine gives it considerable future industrial potential, spanning the rhine to the Oder gives them considerable population and manpower, while for sure it has the diplomatic challenged of being bordered on all sides it also has the advantage that it has far greater resources to call upon then either Poland or Byzantium.

8. Croatia: Mauled from its conflict with Byzantium has left it in bad straights, but luckily its acquisition of Hungary, the seeming willing support of Russia, and its central position in European politics gives it influence and potential it might not otherwise have had, while it is doubtful that Croatia will have the resources as it stands now to truly enter European politics as an equal, with skill and some luck, especially if it can acquire the remainder of Austria from South Germany Croatia has alot of potential indeed.

9. Russia: The biggest winner thus far, huge with vast swaths of land stretching from the Baltic Sea to Central Asia, possessing absolutely huge amounts of people, with vast potential, play their cards right and Russia's greatness is assured, with the vast empty tracks of Siberia open to settlement, nothing is impossible with even moderate skill.

And here are the bolded parts quoted in a lump:

While it is doubtful that Croatia will have the resources as it stands now to truly enter European politics as an equal, with skill and some luck, especially if it can acquire the remainder of Austria from South Germany Croatia has alot of potential indeed.

Forcing [Al-Andalus] to have to answer the age old question of whether it can be a hybdrid land and sea power or if it has to focus on only one or the other.

Just as with Byz Russia is a direct neighbour and without allies in the west Poland is almost certainly within Russia's sphere and anything Poland does almost certainly needs the indirect or direct approval of the Kremlin.

Without anywhere to expand into easily only a slow downward slope towards irrelevance remains unless they can find someway to expand at the expense of one or two of its neighbours, but such actions would certainly attract much unwanted attention and need skilled diplomacy

But Egypts problems will however remains acute if hidden, the more of Africa they expand into will mean a much more complicated defense, their exposed north means they will need to maintain significant investments either diplomatically or militarily with a brownwater navy to defend independantly their many flanks.

These 5 predictions are all shockingly proven correct either soon after they were made, or in some cases, 300 years after they were made. These predictions were dead-on for over half the player base, and for 3 of the final 7 CK converting players. If I may, however, I would like to revisit each of these predictions, explain their relevance, and perhaps make a couple more.

Bulgaria

In the simplest of terms, they moved too slowly. They had done relatively well at finding places to expand while avoiding unwanted attention. Up until the mid-1300's, Germanic Italy had been stealing the show and capturing everyone's attention. But when Italy fell, Bulgaria realized that their position was no better than Italy's. They hadn't made the most of the unsupervised years, and then they made a mistake. They tried to work with everyone single one of their neighbors (against all the other ones) at the same time. This basic and arguably avoidable miscue led to pissing off everyone and leaving them with no friends at all. As such, they were summarily annexed in 1394.

Poland

Well this one is fairly simple, but it applies to another state. Poland was indeed at the whim of the Kremlin. Russia had interests in a obedient buffer; Germany, England, and Italy didn't. They were, by default, Russia's pet. When a new player came in that was fatally unaware of this relationship, Poland was annexed (1290). But who it was annexed by is the intriguing part. It wasn't annexed by Russia itself, although they did take a bit of land, it was annexed by Russia's other pet - Croatia.

Croatia

Luck and skill indeed. With luck, a feckless player was put in Poland. With luck, they performed the one and only act which could make wholesale annexation acceptable to the international community. Croatia had previously made it apparent that they wouldn't turn on their benefactor, and that, if possible, they would fight to defend them. This opportunity to prove themselves came when Poland went rogue. Quickly moving in, Poland was wiped out and taken under Croatian rule to unify the buffer between Central Europe and Russia into a single sane state.

With luck, the Italy player left the game and his nation was partitioned by the four nations it bordered. Croatia was one of these. The intricacies of this don't need to be discussed here, but with patient skill, the partition was properly finished 60 years after it started with Croatia gaining what it had originally been told it could have.

In the end, Croatia eventually had the resources to enter European politics as more than an equal.

Egypt

Egypt's very large, very indefensible border on the Mediterranean as long been it's potential undoing. Twice Vikings from the north have used this weakness to sack Alexandria. Twice central Europeans have used this weakness to take Italy out of Fatimid hands. Twice Easterners have taken advantage of the long travel times from one end of their empire to another to launch attack after attack successfully. Unless there is great skill in diplomacy or military, this weakness will likely once again prove destructive for Egypt.

Al-Andalus (Cataluyna)

Everyone's favorite nation that was never meant to be (only because no one likes Croatia). The previous predictions have come full-term as we steam towards 1500. This nation is left with a dilemma. Do you attempt a hybrid nation? Do you sacrifice your overseas territory to maintain your land strength, or do you sacrifice your continental strength to reap the wealth of the New World? Not choosing is not an option. A hybrid nation is safest, but ultimately the weakest. A land nation is the strongest, but it heavily dictates your foreign policy. A naval nation offers more flexibility, but all continental ambitions are automatically thrown out the window. In addition, the first two can be done with any player at the helm, but the last one requires a skilled diplomat to keep everyone happy all the time.

I might do some ROTW analysis next week. For now I'll just leave you an image of how adorable wee little Croatia was just before the original predictions were made:

[fasquardon]

Heart Of Darkness:

In The Shadow Of Averroës and Madhava:

While Kongo was busy discovering Ethiopia, European seafarers had worked their way down the coast of Africa, and quite accidentally, discovered the Kongo.

The Portuguese were a minor people living along the lower course of the Douro. Their history was notable only for being a somewhat difficult conquest for the Toulousian empire. When their lands were conquered by Al-Andalus, they almost passed from the pages of history. Peacefully growing grapes and fishing, with even the free city of Porto (where there was some local autonomy) being a loyal and largely strife-free backwater of the vast Andalusian Empire. However, as Europe developed a nascent market economy, the Portuguese fishermen, out-competed in their traditional fishing grounds by enterprising Andalusi and English fishing crews, began making fishing voyages to the rich fishing grounds along the West African coast.

Coming for the resources of the sea, rather than the land, the Portuguese were slow to make an impact on the rising Kongolese republic, however, as bad weather, opportunistic trading and the age old lure of young, single women took their toll, more and more fishermen arrived in the coastal villages. And having arrived, the fishermen found their skills in high demand, as the sinister rulers of the republic bent their efforts to mastering the seas with European-style boats and docks.

So the fishermen became small-time traders, shipwrights, architects and foundering fathers of mixed Afro-Portuguese culture. They also provided hospitality for Averroist missionaries.

At the same time, the expansion of the Gujarati Empire in India destabilized that ancient civilization, forcing the scholars of Madhava of Sangamagrama's great school in Kerala to uproot themselves and flee to safer lands. At first this meant Solomnid Ethiopia, however, finding the Ethiopian schools hostile to foreign competitors, the Indian mathematicians, after meeting Kongolese merchants in Zanzibar, opted to trek across the African continent on the by-now well established road between the two civilizations. There they found a land hungry for their learning, and their mathematical prowess caused a revolution in Kongolese accountancy techniques and astronomy.

With the authority their usefulness in the First Eater's court created, the religious ideas of the scholars - namely Davaita Hinduism - began to spread among the Kongolese.

Coming in a period of unprecedented flux in the belief systems of West Africa, with wars with the advanced Sunni tribes in Northwest Africa and the shredding of traditional religious authority by the First Eater's cannibalistic approach to centralization, the Davaita ideas trickling down from the court, and the Averroist ideas washing in from the coast mixed and created an age of philosophical and religious flowering. Built on a common pragmatic many-paths-to-one-truth approach the Averroists and Dvaita Hindus created between them Averroist Hinduism.

Or as its adherents called it "the Divine Faith".

fasquardon

[Edzako]

I haven't read trough all thread yet, but I will continue supporting von Rundstedt and fasquardon.

Glory to Russia and Kongo !

[Sid Meier]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzVJU9ypk3Y

Final part.

[FrozenWall]

Frosty makes glorious return to Abbasid Caliphal Persia! Whacks Punjab! Smashes Mongols! Repels Indians! Annihilates Croats! Captures Samarkand, Caspian Sea, Arabia, Jerusalem!

Abbasid Calipha hailed as greatest military genious since Frosty played the Fatimid Caliphas!

Caliphal ego-maniacal comics and Komnenid poetic laments to follow tomorrow!

[OrangeYoshi]

Annihilates Croats!

Wrong.

More like: Dano continually increasing the speed ignoring both lag and PvP wars causes the Croat primary to crash, leaving Yoshi with his bad connection and bad computer to lead the Croat armies aimlessly into Anatolia because they can't be properly controlled!

[King of Men]

Whew. A dramatic session. Main events, from the Khanate perspective:

• Khanate and Punjab attack Persia; Punjab gets its ass kicked, surrenders a province just as the Khanate was about to rescue it by invading the Caucasus in force.
• All of Africa and some of Europe attacks India. The Khanate comes to the defense of Asia along with Punjab and many other loyal Asian powers, but the long distances prevent us from combining our armies properly.
• In the middle of negotiations, Persia joins the aggressors and the Khanate is forced to pull its armies out of India. One-third of the subcontinent is annexed to the victorious aggressors.
• The Persian front is a stalemate with very heavy casualties. Punjab gets its ass kicked again. Croatia joins, but is soon turned back from Anatolia.
• Persia is demanding the return of all its losses in the previous war, a total of six (I think) provinces - two from the Khanate, four from Punjab.
• There is also some sort of drama in Indochina and south-east Asia, but I was otherwise occupied and couldn't pay close attention.

[Emperor Ike]

Well the whole Gujaration Peace negotiations episode reminds me of this scene.

[Gollevainen]

it went also so that england joined and was not going to get any provinces from the peacedeal
The we made seperate peace for just for our own gains, got some slack about it from our allies who wanted us to continue in war where were not to going to get anyhting...
But eventually Gurjat agrees to surrender...
agrees not...
agrees...
agrees not...
x10
and then he finaly agrees "for real this time"
agrees not...
x3
and then agrees for real

As Africans and Catalunia were in seperate wars, they made their peace first, but then "tadaa" Qin deciseds in Gujarats behalf of not more to his surrendering, and Qin, while his player is in his usuall "ignore all" mood keeps continues to figth catalunians despite Gujarat player agreeing in the chatt to surrender

to enforce this, Qin player kicks out Catalunian player (and some others aside) from the TS channel to ensure that the peace cannot come.
Add to that the fact that Croatia got bad mauling due lag and no one paying attention to it, this wasent the best MP session I had seen :/

[Emperor Ike]

Yeah the Gujaratian "agreement process" was actually hurting himself more and he could have survived the war with less casualties if he would have just accepted our demands on the 2nd time.

[oddman]

Frosty makes glorious return to Abbasid Caliphal Persia! Whacks Punjab! Smashes Mongols! Repels Indians! Captures Samarkand, Caspian Sea, Arabia, Jerusalem!

Abbasid Calipha hailed as greatest military genious since Frosty played the Fatimid Caliphas!

Caliphal ego-maniacal comics and Komnenid poetic laments to follow tomorrow!

*Like*

Also, Catalunya deplores the slow resolution of the peace process, and urges Qin to stop interfering when the principal has surrendered, and urges Punjab acquiesce to reasonable demands when the majority of their country is overrun by shambling hordes.

Also also, Catalunya owes England an apology for calling on her when pissed-off about not ending the war together, which was Blayne's fault, not Golle's.

[OrangeYoshi]

*Like*

Also, Catalunya deplores the slow resolution of the peace process, and urges Qin to stop interfering when the principal has surrendered, and urges Punjab acquiesce to reasonable demands when the majority of their country is overrun by shambling hordes.

I believe the Punjab sub crashed or something and we never got a notification. I think Punjab didn't do a think for the last 10 minutes or so.

[Irsh Faq]

Yeah the Gujaratian "agreement process" was actually hurting himself more

Not only him. Second time he fake-surrendered (the time after demands were stated) I dutifully paused Ethiopian armies so as not to mess up his country any more than was required by the peace, letting his last major depleted stack retreat; a couple months, a point or so of WE, and 15k manpower of attrition later, imagine how thrilled I was to see Mongol armies arriving and Gujarat unsurrendering again.

Then imagine how pleased I was when the above scenario played out ten or fifteen more times (although I admit I stopped pausing the advance of the Ethiopian armies after the second or so fake-surrender... fool me once, and all).

[oddman]

The World of 1491
As Noted Down By Remarkably Objective Andalusian Historiographers, Inspired As They Are By Divine Savegames

Topography

Nations, Blobbed


Nations, Unblobbed


Income
Average Income Per Province
Red = 0.440603773585 ducats per province per month; Green = 8.04871428571 ducats per province per month.


Income per Nation
Red = 4.643 ducats per month; Green = 424.223 ducats per month.


Technology
Average Tech Level
Red = 7.6; Green = 12.8.


Development
Average Buildings per Province, per Nation
Red = 0.0 buildings per province; Green = 7.0 buidings per province.


Buildings per Province
Red = 0 buildings per province; Green = 12 buidings per province.


Military
Army Size


Navy Size


Culture
Cultures


Religion

[King of Men]

I think perhaps the surrendering thing was an issue of terminology. Usually when someone says "I surrender", it's a request for terms to be dictated, and that's how you gentlemen understood it. But Suirantes seemed to feel he was asking for terms to be negotiated. Perhaps he'd have done better to say "What terms are on offer?".

Red = 0 buildings per province; Green = 6 buidings per province.

Really? The Khanate has invented both workshops and courthouses, and can consequently have up to 8 buildings per province; and if the poverty-struck steppes have got to 8, you may be sure Croatia has 9 or 10.

Also, I'm glad to see that the Khanate (when blobbed) now has a creature shape. My head is sticking up into Sibir, the Oirat Horde is my open mouth, my provinces north of the Caspian and sticking into the uncolonised bits are my arms, and I've got a long serpentine body stretching back to the Pacific.

... now I can't expand any more.

[Edzako]

I think perhaps the surrendering thing was an issue of terminology. Usually when someone says "I surrender", it's a request for terms to be dictated, and that's how you gentlemen understood it. But Suirantes seemed to feel he was asking for terms to be negotiated. Perhaps he'd have done better to say "What terms are on offer?".



Really? The Khanate has invented both workshops and courthouses, and can consequently have up to 8 buildings per province; and if the poverty-struck steppes have got to 8, you may be sure Croatia has 9 or 10.

Also, I'm glad to see that the Khanate (when blobbed) now has a creature shape. My head is sticking up into Sibir, the Oirat Horde is my open mouth, my provinces north of the Caspian and sticking into the uncolonised bits are my arms, and I've got a long serpentine body stretching back to the Pacific.

... now I can't expand any more.

Don't see it, but there is freakish red head south of you.

[Sid Meier]

I'm pretty pround of myself in general though, I successfully fought the Europeans off toe to toe while our techs are still equal, if the persian war/distraction didn't happen I think Gujurats fate would've been much different.