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Thread: "Day of Glory" — Saturdays, 10:00 EST

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Ederon is the main forum. It's always been that way and it's not going to change.
    Never been a decision in red about it. We use it because its convenient for diplomacy and forking different subjects, but paradox is of equal importance and it's not going to change.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Ederon is the main forum. It's always been that way and it's not going to change.
    So I need to sign up for Ederon then? Is there a name for the approoriate thread?

    Naturally as a ROTW player I'd vote for 1. I guess a suggestion that a 100% skillsbased be done and then the ROTW buffed would complicated things!

    however option 3 seems like a bad way to go, if you genuiningly want to play a complex game all the way to 1955... By the end of EU3, if the conversion is wieghted to support whoever did best in the Ck stage, there will surely only be a 3 or 4 players left?
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  3. #83
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    So, I have to pick which decisions I can enact? I'm a little confused about the conversion process.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by James The 1st View Post
    So, I have to pick which decisions I can enact? I'm a little confused about the conversion process.

    This is the other reason why we absolutely have to post information here, we have only a week apparantly to submit our Auction picks and as we can see not everyone even knows this is the case!

    DG is calculated by ranking the dynasties of kingdoms (in effect, the player nations; if two kings have the same dynasty, they get the same DG, but this seems unlikely in our game) on the following quantities:

    Maximum prestige, piety, and gold of one character
    Average prestige, piety, and gold
    Fraction of Dukes and Counts (note, not the number of titles, but the number of title-holders)
    Number of living characters
    Amount of claims on other dynasties
    Titles held in fief from other dynasties

    Rest of the World nations (yay!) get to participate and get a "median" of average Dynastic Glory.

    For each quantity, the top-ranked nation receives 10 points, the second gets 9, and so down to the tenth-ranked who gets 1 point. The maximum DG, then, is 110. The DG is then used to bid in an auction, as follows. Each player submits a list of priorities, in this format:

    Code:
    TAG = {
      bonus1 = X1
      bonus2 = X2
      bonus3 = X3
    }
    where the absolute values of the Xi do not matter; they are used only to prioritise the bonuses. In each round of the auction, the player with the most DG gets his highest remaining priority; the price he pays is equal to the sum of all other bids, to a maximum of two-thirds of his reserve and a minimum of one-twentieth of his reserve. The amount a player bids for a bonus is equal to its DG divided by (2^n), where n is the priority ranking of that bonus; in other words, for your highest priority you bid one-half your DG, for the second-highest, one-fourth, and so on down. Note that this means that popular items will be expensive while unpopular ones will be cheap. Further, if the highest bid is less than two DG, the auction ends and no further items are sold.

    If a European player doesn't submit a bid, the default bid list is used:

    Code:
    default = {
      more_central = 100000
      ottoman_tolerance = 90000
      swedish_steel = 80000
      vornedskab = 70000
      bank_of_amsterdam = 60000
      finnish_cavalry = 50000
      printing_industry = 40000
      den_danske_lov = 30000
      government_tech = 25000
      habsburg_dominance = 20000
      fugger_banks = 10000
      emperor = 9800 
      elector = 9500 
      the_wooden_wall = 9000
      divine_faith = 8750
      the_societas_jesu = 8500
      religious_sacrifices = 8450
      the_absolutism = 8400
      krantor_crane = 8350
      adler_von_lubeck = 8300
      dutch_masters = 8250
      ninjas = 8200
      the_forbidden_city = 8150
      hall_of_worthies = 8100
      hangul_writing_system = 8050 
      hofkriegsrat = 8000
      afonsine_ordinances = 7000
      legacy_of_the_navigator = 6000
      thalassocracy = 5000
      production_tech = 4500
      trade_tech = 4250
      the_state_is_me = 4000
      stato_da_mar = 3000
      gold_fleet = 2000
      britanna_rules_the_waves = 1000
      land_tech = 950
      naval_tech = 925 
      british_merchant_navy = 900
      more_offense = 850 
      golden_fleece = 800
      compagnies_ordonnance = 700
      more_inno = 600
      more_land = 400
      more_quality = 300
      more_pluto = 200
      more_trade = 100
      army_tradition = 95
      prestige = 90
      legitimacy = 80
      navy_tradition = 75
      magistrate = 70
      spy = 60
      cultural_tradition = 55 
      colonist = 50
      missionary = 40
      merchant = 30
      venetian_arsenal = -1 
      extra_bt = -1
      extra_mp = -1
      more_aristo = -1
      more_merc = -1
      more_serfs = -1
      more_narrow = -1
      more_defense = -1
      more_naval = -1
      more_quantity = -1
      more_freedom  = -1
      papal_influence = -1
    }
    which also serves as a list of the available bonuses. ROTW nations that do not submit a bid do not participate in the auction. Note that a bid of -1 is no bid, "I don't want it". In the case of spies, magistrates, etc, five of each are auctioned. For papal influence, legitimacy and so on, five portions of 5% each. Eight electorships. For extra_mp and extra_bt, five portions of 0.1 each; the effect is explained below.

    Now, basetax and MP. Each EU3 province gets BT and MP equal to half its EU3 value, rounded up. The remainder goes into a redistribution pool. Each EU3 province then gets a fraction of that redistribution pool proportional to its pull value. The pull is equal to the CK base taxes of the CK provinces making up the EU3 province, modified by the dynastic weight. The dynastic weight is calculated by looking at the living characters of the dynasty; if they have a martial education, they add one point to the manpower weight for each level, if they have a steward education, they add to the basetax weight. So, if your dynasty has equal numbers of steward and martial educations, the dynastic weight is 0.5 for each. The extra_mp and extra_bt from the auction modifies the total; if you bought one helping of extra_mp, you get a 10% bonus to your manpower weight. (So if it used to be 0.5, it is now 0.55, and the basetax weight is reduced accordingly.) Note that you cannot gain pull through either education or auction, you can only prioritise whether your pull will be used for basetax or for manpower. Observe that it is futile to bid on both extra_mp and extra_bt, since the bonuses will cancel.



    Essentially
    Code:
    default = {
      more_central = 100000
      ottoman_tolerance = 90000
      swedish_steel = 80000

    Is the same as

    Code:
    default = {
      more_central = 10
      ottoman_tolerance = 9
      swedish_steel = 8
    The absolute number doesn't matter its just to determine priority.

    The DG each pick consumes increases for every person who votes for it to a maximum of something, if no one but you picks something there's a minimum I think.

    Due date is saturday apparently.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  5. #85
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -MoRiDin- View Post
    So I need to sign up for Ederon then? Is there a name for the approoriate thread?
    The thread in question will make itself obvious. "Converter ROTW" or something like that.

    however option 3 seems like a bad way to go, if you genuiningly want to play a complex game all the way to 1955... By the end of EU3, if the conversion is wieghted to support whoever did best in the Ck stage, there will surely only be a 3 or 4 players left?
    The EU3 to Vicky2 converter has nothing to do with the CK stage. Option 3 merely gives population (Vicky 2 power) according to EU3 measures of power (things like base tax and other things like it), which maintains relative power across the entire world.

    For further discussion we should go to Ederon. It's already been discussed in detail there, as well, so you might get your questions answered by skipping the walls of text and reading the shorter posts.
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  6. #86
    Until everyone reads it we do need to discuss it even if brief.

    My argument is that your core assumption, that option 3 would result with keeping relative power across conversion is false, what it will result is giving Europe a disproportionate amount of power for Victoria 2 for much less "skill" than what RotW nations have to show for the same amount of population.

    Another reason why it is false is that if all we want to do is keep with the same power rations across games than we might as well use the unlimited time patch mod or end at EU3; because if relative power and skill is kept the same than the game will stagnate as nothing will ever change.

    Also fundamentally an equal distribution based on skill is inherently unfair to the RotW because Europe starts with significant advantages that they do not have or possess in Vanila and the RotW buffs are insufficient to close this gap, they were designed to make them playable not balanced.

    The EU3 portion is essentially rigged to make Europe more powerful for Victoria 2, no one in the RotW is going to want this.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  7. #87
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Let me remind you why we moved to Ederon in the first place: We were thrown out of the CK forum for chattering too much about a game that hadn't started yet. I laugh about it now but it wasn't all that funny at the time. So, let's try to avoid that mistake for the EU3 leg, shall we?
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  8. #88
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James The 1st View Post
    So, I have to pick which decisions I can enact? I'm a little confused about the conversion process.
    Prioritise the decisions, and you will automatically bid for them as the converter runs. Any decisions you win the bid for are activated from 1399. The converter does everything for you except deciding which decisions you want.

    By the way, it seems to me that Japan is a bit of a special case when it comes to national unification: Since the shogun stuff is a real nerf in the early game, it should be allowed to use the Unite Japan option in the Shogun interface, even though national unification decisions are not generally allowed.
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  9. #89
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid Meier View Post
    Another reason why it is false is that if all we want to do is keep with the same power rations across games than we might as well use the unlimited time patch mod or end at EU3; because if relative power and skill is kept the same than the game will stagnate as nothing will ever change.
    Nah. Let's just mod CK again and never leave it.
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by James The 1st View Post
    So, I have to pick which decisions I can enact? I'm a little confused about the conversion process.
    I think you put them in order of preference and then some poor, unfortunate person has to distrubute them fairly!

    EDIT: Some of the items in this list do not appear to be a national decision. More Centralisation, Colonist, etc. Is there a list of what exactly these other options do? Bank of Amsterdam is worth a lot more from 1399 than an extra starting colonist.

    I'll go have a look at Ederon in case the info is there.
    Last edited by -MoRiDin-; 19-04-2011 at 23:53.
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  11. #91
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -MoRiDin- View Post
    I think you put them in order of preference and then some poor, unfortunate person has to distrubute them fairly!
    Not quite. Through CK, we have accumulated something called "Dynastic Glory". That's the "currency" we are using during the auction. The one with the highest DG is always the bidder and the bid is always on his highest priority item. The price starts at 1/10th his DG and gets raised (to a maximum of 2/3rds his DG) based on how many other people have it as their highest priority.

    ROTW nations get a certain amount of DG which is just below the lowest CK player's DG, IIRC.
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  12. #92
    Yours is no Disgrace Gollevainen's Avatar
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    Ederon forums are more relaxed and King of Men is our moderator there. Pdox is good place for prestige, but like for me, Its only used for my offical propaganda
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    Not quite. Through CK, we have accumulated something called "Dynastic Glory". That's the "currency" we are using during the auction. The one with the highest DG is always the bidder and the bid is always on his highest priority item. The price starts at 1/10th his DG and gets raised (to a maximum of 2/3rds his DG) based on how many other people have it as their highest priority.

    ROTW nations get a certain amount of DG which is just below the lowest CK player's DG, IIRC.

    No its an average, as per King of Men's initial post 5 months back on the subject, add them all up and divide by number of players.

    Prioritise the decisions, and you will automatically bid for them as the converter runs. Any decisions you win the bid for are activated from 1399. The converter does everything for you except deciding which decisions you want.

    By the way, it seems to me that Japan is a bit of a special case when it comes to national unification: Since the shogun stuff is a real nerf in the early game, it should be allowed to use the Unite Japan option in the Shogun interface, even though national unification decisions are not generally allowed.
    That's because we didn't start it in a reasonable amount of time, and regardless the EU3 forums have different moderators, we picked a date (2 weeks) and thats usually the average time between new games anyways.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  14. #94
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    So it was just now brought to my attention that ninjas are not a permanent decision in EU3, but a one-year modifier that costs 100 gold at a pop. With that in mind it's probably a bit too powerful to be handed out permanently. So I shall remove it from the list of available decisions.
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  15. #95
    Clearly they were driven away by pirates.
    He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

  16. #96
    Comrade Uzkiye Bryuki Emperor Ike's Avatar
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    So the due date of the auction decisions is this Saturday?
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    See Quote. By PM, I do believe means on the Ederon forums to ensure we don't miss anyone.

  18. #98
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Ike View Post
    So the due date of the auction decisions is this Saturday?
    Next Saturday. The 30th.
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  19. #99
    Field Marshal James The 1st's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danomite View Post
    See Quote. By PM, I do believe means on the Ederon forums to ensure we don't miss anyone.
    Could I have a link? My googling brings up a silly trading card forum.

  20. #100
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James The 1st View Post
    Could I have a link? My googling brings up a silly trading card forum.
    http://forums.ederon.net/Default.aspx?g=topics&f=154
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