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Thread: "Day of Glory" — Saturdays, 10:00 EST

  1. #661
    Mostly Harmless oddman's Avatar
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    The following is meant as an AAR, but as it concerns multiplayer dynamics, I'm pretty sure the Mods of Doom will not accept me posting it in the AAR thread, so I post it here instead.

    The Context of Treaties

    I think people would do well to consider signed treaties' contexts. There is a spectrum of circumstances under which treaties are signed, and that spectrum is characterized by the amount of duress either party is under.

    The extremes of the spectrum are:
    1) Two parties recognizing mutual interest, signing a win-win treaty;
    2) One party imposing treaty conditions through coercion, either force or trickery, on the other party.
    Looking at situation 1: When two parties come to a mutual agreement of their own will, without one party coercing the other, the parties will both want to enforce the terms of the treaty. An example of a situation like this is the agreement between Bavaria, England and Andalucia at the end of CK. We all had a vested interest in dividing the New World between us; we would all win if we stuck to the terms of the agreement and no-one forced anything. The spoils were divided in a way everyone agreed to of their own volition.
    Defensive Alliances against a common foe are another example of this sort of treaty: enforcing the terms is in both parties' best interest.
    Agreements like these can end, too: circumstances change, common foes are cut down to size. Ideally, the treaty is then ended with mutual agreement. However, one often finds that one party wishes to continue the treaty while another doesn't. To facilitate this, we often include a grace period: "automatic renewal every 10 years" - the 10 years is the grace period, a compromise between both parties of which one wishes the terms to be enforced and the other party doesn't. To maintain credibility it is very important not to infringe on these terms.

    Situation 2 is the case where one party imposes its terms on another. In this case there is no mutual interest: one party has an interest in seeing the terms enforced, and does so by coercion. A typical example of this is the peace treaty a victor imposes on the vanquished: the victim has no interest in enforcing the conditions of the agreement; the victim has an interest in getting the victor to back off. In the simplest case, the victor will take something material: provinces, money. In other cases, the victor may impose demands over time: a NAP, or war reparations over time. The vanquished may agree to demands like these under duress. The main enforcing power of such a treaty's conditions is not mutual will and diplomatic credit, but the victor's worldly power. After all, once the roles are reversed, the previously-vanquished-now-victorious can just force the previously-victorious-now-vanquished to reverse the treaty conditions.

    In situation 2-cases, the victor's word is more important than the vanquished's. After all, once the vanquished accedes, he is at the victor's tender mercies: the vanquished depends entirely on the victor's word, whereas the victor still has his force of arms to enforce conditions. An example: All the Russias fights Komnenid Rome, and defeats the Roman armies in the field. Both parties agree on a treaty where Rome cedes the Romanian Black Sea coast and the Crimea to Russia, in exchange for a 50-year NAP that allows the Romans to focus on the Croatians. If Russia breaks its word and attacks the Romans, that is disastrous for the Russian reputation. If Rome, however, takes back the Black Sea Coast after another war in 60 years, no-one will think any less of him for it, yet he and Russia did not agree upon a lease of the provinces for a NAP.


    An interesting case is when treaties are agreed upon not as the result of armed conflict, but as the result of the threat of armed conflict. Essentially, the enforcing power is the threat of a lost war. Bavaria agreeing to cede a ruinous amount of German-cultured provinces in exchange for a NAP is equivalent to the example above. The alternative was more lost wars, with essentially the same outcome.

    My point is that the vanquished party, having been forced to accede to demands, is not bound in spirit by those terms when the aggressor's force falls away. Another example is treaties signed on the basis of deceit: if one party tricked the other (essentially using force, albeit in a different way) and it is found out, the treaty will be considered far less valid than when parties engaged upon in out of their free will and fully aware of the consequences. So if you force a treaty onto someone, don't be surprised when you get screwed over on the letter of a treaty you had someone sign under duress. Catalunyan diplomats, at least, will not be surprised.

    And Catalunyan diplomats will also try to arrange treaties that are beneficial to all signatories.

  2. #662
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddman View Post
    So if you force a treaty onto someone, don't be surprised when you get screwed over on the letter of a treaty you had someone sign under duress. Catalunyan diplomats, at least, will not be surprised.

    And Catalunyan diplomats will also try to arrange treaties that are beneficial to all signatories.
    It still astounds me that Irsh Faq promised to not void the treaty that was forced upon him by Malaya and Catalunya even after his allies went to war over it.
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  3. #663
    Mostly Harmless oddman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    It still astounds me that Irsh Faq promised to not void the treaty that was forced upon him by Malaya and Catalunya even after his allies went to war over it.
    You should probably ask IrshFaq about my role in negotiations.

  4. #664
    Yours is no Disgrace Gollevainen's Avatar
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    One signs his word and he is bound by it, no matter why he did so. Peace treaty is always mutual agreement between the belligrents, despite in 99% cases its the winner who decides and dictates the terms. Newertheless its still agreed agreement, no one could blame that he had no alteranatives, war is always the other alternative If you don't like getting into pacts, agreements or into treaties with in the peace, do not sign such. Tell the enemy that you won't accept peace with treaties or which would bound your word. Simple as that... I bet the enemy can think of lot of alteranatives to fill up his humanwarscore
    The spirit of the treaty is always inside the agreed parts, not in the intentions of the signatorials, nor in the conditions where the treaty is signed.
    If the agreement is simple and universal like NAP (whose content and meaning should not be at anyways unclear to anyone who plays these MP games), there is simply no acceptable excuse of breaking it with excuses presented in the near history of this game.

    Idea is not and should never be to find excuses or loopholes how one can "honourably" break agreements or treaties. One should steel himself with character that is willing to accept damage and loss in order to keep his word pure and trusthworty.
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  5. #665
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddman View Post
    You should probably ask IrshFaq about my role in negotiations.
    "End your deals with Russia or I'll invade you"
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  6. #666
    Lt. General BlitzMartinDK's Avatar
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    on NAP : non AGRESSION pact...the definition of agression might not be the same to all parties : Is trying to compete away the other sides merchants agressive? Is an embargo, to defend your tradecenter from that? What about allowing somebody elses merchants into your own center, because you do not have the money to pay to oust your "friend's" merchants yourself? Allowing somebody to march thru' your territory, in order to attack the friend or ally of your NAP-partner? Giving money to somebody, well knowing he will build armies or navies to resist your NAP-partners efforts?
    If you do not have some standard definition, you will have to agree on something in every treaty, or risk ...errors in translation... ..

    As Odmann is saying (I think..) : If you make an agreement where both sides percieve to have a significant advantage in keeping the agreement, it is less likely for the signatories to try to ..interprete.. the treaty in novel ways...

  7. #667
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi View Post
    It still astounds me that Irsh Faq promised to not void the treaty that was forced upon him by Malaya and Catalunya even after his allies went to war over it.
    For the peanuts: OY refers to a conversation we had immediately after Ethiopia signed a treaty under duress obligating it not to help the Slavs. He asked if I would keep the agreement or whether I would ignore it, on principle that a treaty signed under duress isn't valid. I told him I would keep it and considered it valid despite the duress.
    Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Lord Protector of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Autocrat from Carthage to the Cape, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant in Tyranny's Bloody Banner.

  8. #668
    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzMartinDK View Post
    If you do not have some standard definition, you will have to agree on something in every treaty, or risk ...errors in translation... ..
    There are two ways to approach it. Either agree to a standard definition, or simply write the terms into each treaty. Ethiopian treaty protocol generally followed the latter principle; I wrote my treaties specifically listing each thing that the parties agreed on, and anything not prohibited by the text of the treaty was allowed.

    Kongolese treaty protocol may be different. I've already signed several NAPs under broader definitions than I would have done as Ethiopia.

    As Odmann is saying (I think..) : If you make an agreement where both sides percieve to have a significant advantage in keeping the agreement, it is less likely for the signatories to try to ..interprete.. the treaty in novel ways...
    A better way to put it is that the friendlier a nation feels towards you, the more inclined it will be to interpret treaties generously towards you or to go above and beyond the call of the actual text of a treaty. Nations which are hostile to one another will often not be inclined to go past the letter of a treaty.

    For example, the African Brotherhood was, on paper, never more than three articles: defensive alliance, NAP, and borders agreement. Spying and embargoing and all was never prohibited by the text of the treaty, but we never did such to each other.

    A good counter-example would be KOM and Frosty back in CK. They had a treaty, the relevant clause of which was something along the lines of lands gained from one another by vassal-inheritance would be returned at the end of each session. They were also arch-rivals. So KOM inherited a vassal of Frosty's, and then tried to sell it to a third party and buy it back so that he wouldn't have gained it by inheritance and therefore would not technically breach the treaty. Or perhaps he tried to arrange a third party to inherit it and then buy it from them... My memory is slightly hazy on teh exact details by now, but the point is that since they were rivals, KOM wasn't going to go a letter past what was required of him by treaty.
    Last edited by Irsh Faq; 24-09-2011 at 00:47.
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  9. #669
    Mushroom Korps Field Marshal OrangeYoshi's Avatar
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    KoM tried to get me to inherit the island and then buy it from me. Well, at least once in Crete. I know there were others that I wasn't involved in.

    Then again, Granny assassins were working for both sides of that conflict. I'm sure I wasn't being told the truth in half of the conversations I had during that time period.
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  10. #670
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    I'm sure I wasn't being told the truth in half of the conversations I had during that time period.
    That half belonging squarely on KoM's side, I asure everyone.

    KOM wasn't going to go a letter past what was required of him by treaty.
    As I see it agreements are usually upheld either by the players bond of honor, friendship, or threat of force. Ours were held up by the fact that neither could afford 2 front wars, but on the flip side we very much wanted the other one trimmed down to size. In a situation where the others word is bound by force one must reasonably expect it to be broken when such force becomes lacking. Bringing in honor or friendship in such a situation is silly, since they were not a factor in signing the treaty in the first place. I certainly never expected KoM to stay away from anything but the most egregious and obvious breaches of contract, all in the spirit that it was begrudgingly signed.
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  11. #671
    http://www.twitch.tv/raenirsalazar lets play is now broadcasting.
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  12. #672
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    So it seems we need a new Bengal player. Any takers?
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  13. #673
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Men View Post
    So it seems we need a new Bengal player. Any takers?
    I might be able.
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  14. #674
    Comrade Uzkiye Bryuki Emperor Ike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenWall View Post
    I might be able.
    Yes please. Join us. Asia needs more nations.
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  15. #675
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Ike View Post
    Yes please. Join us. Asia needs more nations.
    If I join there may soon be less nations in Asia
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  16. #676
    Yours is no Disgrace Gollevainen's Avatar
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    heh, even better, wellcome indeed back
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  17. #677
    Resident Opportunist King of Men's Avatar
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    Excellent! Great to have you back, Frosty.
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  18. #678
    Hello everybody.
    I am sorry to say that I desire to leave this game at a time convenient the the players. I feel that Khmer is not fun enough to justify the 4 hours of prime time saturday that it takes up, not to mention the endless browsing of the forums. Khmer has become a punching bag being tossed around by the powerful nations and has no real future or hope.
    I am sorry I have to leave, for the progression of the game. I will not however vanish off the earth like many other DoG players. I do however aim to have left the game by the 8th October session.
    If anyone could find a perm for Khmer I would be grateful. Perhaps Broculoc would take it but probably not.
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  19. #679
    Rättshaverist FrozenWall's Avatar
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    Sad to see you go
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  20. #680
    Mostly Harmless oddman's Avatar
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    I (it is I, Catalunya) am in need of a sub. Any takers?

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