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So you feel that society owes you, entitles you, to the profit of their labor? You feel like you have an unimpeachable right to a livelihood derived from their product rather than your own labor; and your defense for that position is the fact that you pay them?

What do you pay them with? Do you hire them the way I would hire house painters, with money I made through my own trade, or is what you pay them merely a portion of the profit of your company? The profits derived, at least in large part, from those employees.

It never ceases to amaze me how men such as yourself can act like it is an act of charity or some kind of fair bargain to be taking a portion of the working man's produce and call it you "paying" them! They're paying you. Your position, your employment as a manager and man of business, is dependent on their labor. You require them far more than they require you, they literally employ YOU. You would have no purpose in life were it not to "manage" the product that they create.

But they created it - they should get to decide for themselves whether they would rather their labor union manage their product, or a government that represents their interests manage their product. How would either be less desirable than allowing a self-appointed - or rather capitalist State appointed - bureaucrat such as yourself steal as much of their property as he, that is you, see fit?
It is not charity. It is, however, fairly basic to state that, especially after this spectacular bust, were I not employing these people, they would not be employed. No one forces these men to work for me, no one forces me to hire them. The arrangement has been reached because it is mutually beneficial. My business could not exist without their labor (as it is impossible for me to do all aspects of my business alone), but so too would they not be able to live without receiving payment for their labor.

And I should clarify further, lest the fire you breathe consume you entirely - they do not "produce" anything, strictly speaking. They move product from ship to shore, and vice versa. What, exactly, is there for your precious union to manage? If they do not like the amount of reimbursement I and my company give them for their labor, they are more than welcome to seek out better wages, or organize in the same manner that the New York longshoremen did. But to insinuate that I am some monster seeking to keep my employees subsistent and subservient is nothing short of deceptive.

Mr. Weaver, my company is privately-held. There is no board for employees' representatives to sit on. Their wages are themselves already profit-sharing. I pay above the industry average precisely because I was once a worker. But, again: my company is no charity. Nor should it be. Nor will it ever be. It is a company, run for profit.
 
Well, Mr. Carter, that means you are both a worker and a capitalist. You would earn a captain's pay (which would have to be the same as you paid your other captains) for which you would be taxed as a worker, and the profits of the company, for which you would be taxed as an owner. Obviously, to employ yourself, you would need government check-ups to make sure you actually are doing the work.

Now, of course, you would purely be taxed as an owner, simply because you no longer work for the company.

That is ridiculous! Even I still run the company, and I founded it, I get nothing! What incentive is there for me to maintain such a business? Do you even know what a captain does? He runs the ship, as a businessman runs an industry (and he as does not usually handle the minutiae of running a ship). He is paid more, because without him, there would be chaos, the ship would get nowhere! Without the a businessman at the helm, a company would collapse, or at least stagnate.

Furthermore, our constant vigilance, regulation, and dictation of business will further promote bureaucratic red-tape, corruption, inefficiency, and mediocrity!
 
Until the Federals have more than one candidate, no primary.

I don't want to take the chance that if I kill them off on the basis of a lack of support now, then I'm suddenly going to be swamped with requests to bring them back like I did with the Republican Party.
 
If I am elected as the member of the Federal platform, I will work tirelessly to create new jobs through the advancement of infrastructure within our nation. I will help the factories and businesses that are under the ghreat of California. To Mr. Jarvis, the time has come when all of the people in this country must chip in to get out of this economy. It is not the time to favor a certain class, group, race, or religion. Your buisiness, as one that employs many people, shall recieve aid in keeping the American job market flowing. Those who create jobs, will recieve aid under my administration.
 
That is ridiculous! Even I still run the company, and I founded it, I get nothing! What incentive is there for me to maintain such a business? Do you even know what a captain does? He runs the ship, as a businessman runs an industry (and he as does not usually handle the minutiae of running a ship). He is paid more, because without him, there would be chaos, the ship would get nowhere! Without the a businessman at the helm, a company would collapse, or at least stagnate.

Furthermore, our constant vigilance, regulation, and dictation of business will further promote bureaucratic red-tape, corruption, inefficiency, and mediocrity!

((New Jarvis, same as old Jarvis.....))

In what sense would you get nothing? What are you talking about?
 
Ellison.JPG


Name: James Karoli
Age: 37
Represent for third district in the great state of Washington.
Member of the Federal Party.

James Karoli is son of Hungarian parents, that arrived in the states because they were suppressed in their former homeland. His parents are enthusiastic Catholics and so is he. James find his strength in hard times from god. He was a farmer like his father in Washington, but his father saw a greater future for him, through the help of local farmers he has been able to represent his district since he was 27. All accusations that his family have pressured local farmers to vote for him through blackmail and extortion is only rumors! It is also only rumors that all the farms around his parents farms are being bought by members of the Karoli family for nothing or giving as gifts. James sees the world as one big opportunity and he is a very pragmatic politician. He does what is best for his district, then the country.

American Jobs for the American People!

International Policy

• What is best for America is best for the world. When we act around the globe we should not think about how the world see us. We should think about how much industry and work we can get to America! American Jobs for the American people!
• Foreign wars are not the matter of the USA. We do what we pleases and the world can do what it pleases.

Domestic Policy

• Unions are the food and water for the American worker! Without Unions we as a country will not prosper!
• Free Education for EVERYONE! Not only the rich, but also for the poor farmers from Washington!
• Free Healthcare for EVERYONE!
• The best government is the government who governs the least!!

Economic Policy

• Tax cuts for job creators and tax cuts for middle class! It does not matter that we have temporarily deficit the tax cuts will help in the long run!
• 50% cut on the military!
• Increase the minimum wage and raise unemployment benefits!
• Ban government intervention in legal union negotiations!

I hereby announces my intention of running for the Federal Party's nomination!

American Jobs for the American People!
 
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I am sorry, Mr. Garrett, I do not mean that you are the sole person who made this mess. But you must accept it was businessman's gambling that caused the crash. That is undeniable.

And I do not suggest to abolish the stock market on the basis of this one disaster. I say we should abolish this, because, under the system we have and you say we should keep, this is bound to happen again.

Also, Mr. Garrett, I would like to ask how you earn the money you get. Do you sweat for it, like ninety percent of this country does?

Let me ask another question, in Norfolk Shipping Company, how many people who earn less than you, which of course is the entire company, works less hard than you?

I humbly accept your apology, sir.

Will a crash of this magnitude happen again? Quite possibly. By the same token, the incredible growth that our country has experienced is also possible. Even under socialism, there will still be shocks to the economy.

How do I earn the money I get? Because I invest my money. If my company fails, I am at risk. The fine workers at my company can always find other jobs; in many cases, where layoffs have been unfortunately necessary, I have personally interceded with friends to try to find them other positions.

Am I physically building the ships that my company sells? No, of course not. There are far better people for that particular task. That doesn't mean I don't work. Negotiating new contracts, reviewing plans, meeting with local government leaders, etc. are all very much work.

Do my employees make lower salaries than I do? Of course they do. Again, it is my livelihood at risk if the company fails, not theirs.

If I might ask, Senator, what exactly is it that you do? Are you sweating to earn your keep, as the virtuous 90% does?
 
It is not charity. It is, however, fairly basic to state that, especially after this spectacular bust, were I not employing these people, they would not be employed. No one forces these men to work for me, no one forces me to hire them. The arrangement has been reached because it is mutually beneficial. My business could not exist without their labor (as it is impossible for me to do all aspects of my business alone), but so too would they not be able to live without receiving payment for their labor.

And I should clarify further, lest the fire you breathe consume you entirely - they do not "produce" anything, strictly speaking. They move product from ship to shore, and vice versa. What, exactly, is there for your precious union to manage? If they do not like the amount of reimbursement I and my company give them for their labor, they are more than welcome to seek out better wages, or organize in the same manner that the New York longshoremen did. But to insinuate that I am some monster seeking to keep my employees subsistent and subservient is nothing short of deceptive.

Mr. Weaver, my company is privately-held. There is no board for employees' representatives to sit on. Their wages are themselves already profit-sharing. I pay above the industry average precisely because I was once a worker. But, again: my company is no charity. Nor should it be. Nor will it ever be. It is a company, run for profit.

Why shouldn't you be more than welcome to seek opportunities as a hired manager elsewhere? Surely, if you view your employers working for you on your terms as voluntary and not coerced, you would have no problem giving up your capital and seeking employment as a professional manager, a hired hand for others.

After all, what labor or effort did you do above and beyond the men who you control the profits from? They operate the vessels, all of the product - the profits from the activities - is generated by them using that capital. Your company profits and your salary are a cut from their produce, their wages are not a cut from your profits.

If you view them as free to seek employment elsewhere, if you are confident that they voluntarily chose for you to control their profits of their labors and to pay them what you see fit, you should have no problem with putting that to the test by attempting to hire yourself out to free men of labor as a manager; and try to get as good a deal from them. Try to get some men not enslaved by the tyranny of capital to hire you for a majority of their profits and as part of your job as a hired manager, a professional capitalist, have the power to decide the wages of them - your employers. See how far insisting on that deal gets you.

The only reason you are in the position you are in is coercion, the state being on the side of capitalists and against the side of men having to earn their happiness. You have a license to steal the product from others because you possess capital, not capital you created but that you expropriated from labor through the capitalist system, which is imposed forcibly by the state and has no natural right to exist. Capitalist law does more to violate a man's right to own his personal property and the products of his labor than it does to protect, so you cannot claim it as "common law" or "natural law" or "an unalienable right". A man has an unalienable right to what he creates, what you consider to be your natural rights are the entitlement you feel to own what others create.
 
International Policy

• What is best for America is best for the world. When we act around the globe we should not think about how the world see us. We should think about how much industry and work we can get to America! American Jobs for the American people!
• Foreign wars are not the matter of the USA. We do what we pleases and the world can do what it pleases.

Domestic Policy

• Unions are the food and water for the American worker! Without Unions we as a country will not prosper!
• Free Education for EVERYONE! Not only the rich, but also for the poor farmers from Washington!
• Free Healthcare for EVERYONE!
• The best government is the government who governs the least!!

Economic Policy

• Tax cuts for job creators and tax cuts for middle class! It does not matter that we have temporarily deficit the tax cuts will help in the long run!
• 50% cut on the military!
• Increase the minimum wage and raise unemployment benefits!
• Ban government intervention in legal union negotiations!

I hereby announces my intention of running for the Federal Party's nomination!

American Jobs for the American People!

How can you suggest a good America when you plan to make 50% cuts to the military? The brave soldiers who fought for our place in the world are the last people that we should harm in an attempt to get out of this depression.

You suggest helping the people, yet decide to harm those whom protect our freedom? How do you suggest all these reforms while in the depth of an economic depression? People must make sacrifices to get out of this protection. More government involvement that doesn't support job creators doesn't help the people. Forcing companies to increase the wage while they are struggling to prevent themselves from going under will harm us more than it does good. Perhaps your plans are great for an ideal world with a strong economy but your policies are not for the middle of a recession.
 
Why do we need a large army? We can recruit quickly if needed, and with the large navy we have, we can largely ensure no one lands on our soil, so I agree with Mr. Karoli on this matter (and on the tax cuts).
 
I'am a very pragmatic politician, I believe in compromise first of all. I do no seek to use the big hand of government to force my proposals through. I will work with the people to acquire the best results for the American People!

I'am also a religious man I believe that god has put this test on America and I believe that we as nation will endure and grow stronger with the help of God the almighty!

I believe that my proposals are the best long term changes for the American People!
 
There is a growing power in South America with factions that dislike our involvement. A navy does not occupy land, the army does. We did not win the Civil War on the Seas. No matter the Naval developments wars will be won on the land. With the rising casualties that are apparent in large battles, a large army will be necessary. Remember the casualties of the Mexican war? Well the Civil war's battles were far larger and more devestating. A large army will protect our cities and act as an offensive weapons. The men who have given so much to our country do not deserve to be thrown aside.

A trained man willing to fight beats a man with a rifle thrust into his hands.
 
Then we should disinvolve ourselves in their affairs! We have warm relations with both our neighbours, so I feel a strong navy is simply a better way to protect the American people.

The men would not be 'thrown aside.' That is a completely fallacious comment, putting words in Mr. Karoli's mouth. I certainly have no qualms, no distaste for military men, seeing how my grandfather, uncle, and cousins all served in the military.
 
Why shouldn't you be more than welcome to seek opportunities as a hired manager elsewhere? Surely, if you view your employers working for you on your terms as voluntary and not coerced, you would have no problem giving up your capital and seeking employment as a professional manager, a hired hand for others.

After all, what labor or effort did you do above and beyond the men who you control the profits from? They operate the vessels, all of the product - the profits from the activities - is generated by them using that capital. Your company profits and your salary are a cut from their produce, their wages are not a cut from your profits.

If you view them as free to seek employment elsewhere, if you are confident that they voluntarily chose for you to control their profits of their labors and to pay them what you see fit, you should have no problem with putting that to the test by attempting to hire yourself out to free men of labor as a manager; and try to get as good a deal from them. Try to get some men not enslaved by the tyranny of capital to hire you for a majority of their profits and as part of your job as a hired manager, a professional capitalist, have the power to decide the wages of them - your employers. See how far insisting on that deal gets you.

The only reason you are in the position you are in is coercion, the state being on the side of capitalists and against the side of men having to earn their happiness. You have a license to steal the product from others because you possess capital, not capital you created but that you expropriated from labor through the capitalist system, which is imposed forcibly by the state and has no natural right to exist. Capitalist law does more to violate a man's right to own his personal property and the products of his labor than it does to protect, so you cannot claim it as "common law" or "natural law" or "an unalienable right". A man has an unalienable right to what he creates, what you consider to be your natural rights are the entitlement you feel to own what others create.

I am, indeed, welcome to hire myself out as hired manager. I've chosen not to. Doesn't mean I don't always have the choice. More to the point, I assert that yes, in fact people would want to hire a manager to coordinate their labor. A longshoreman's labor in New York is worthless to those receiving the service without corresponding service on the other end, whether that other end is Tampa, London, or any other port. The issue I have with your system, is that the system you propose would need to have control over every aspect of commerce. They would need to control the longshoremen in both New York and London, and all the crews and capital operating between the two.

Furthermore, you are, again, wrong in insisting that my company's profits are a cut from their produce - their wages are, indeed, a cut from my profits. My employees are paid before myself. Occasionally this even means I do not get paid. If there is a loss, temporarily I will take things on the chin and bear it out, as opposed to firing my employees. Only when losses are consistent will I begin to lower wages or fire employees. What labor have I done above and beyond the men whom I employ? I have bought additional capital. I have sought out the best employees for the tasks. I have solicited more clients. I have managed the accounts of the business. I have managed the particulars of their payment. I have ensured that they have money to provide for their families, before I am even sure I will have my own money. I have assured that they will have a paycheck tomorrow. What have my employees done? Only what I have asked them to do in the course of their duties. That is exactly all I require of them.

I don't understand where you choose to claim that I derive my position from "common law" or any such nonsense. On the contrary, you, Mr. Weaver, are the one who insists that there is an "unalienable right" to what one creates. There is not, especially not if one has entered an agreement to surrender whatever they have created for certain reimbursement. Is that not, after all, what employment is?
 
((Thanks, BBB. I didn't mean that all charity should be banned or anything, just that these self-made man characters are getting a bit ridiculous. What is especially annoying is that they claim all of their employees love them and they pay them the best wages in the world, etc., etc., but in the context of the game, I can not challenge this without godmodding, however, at the same time, it seems like godmodding for a "self-made man" character to dictate the views of their employees and pretend there's never been a strike or a union drive, or unfair firing,s or anything. I probably should have explained what I meant a bit better. It just seems unfair, in the context of the game, that a "self-made man" can declare the company they run pristine and strike-free and I can't declare any type of organizing or problems in the same place. Kinda makes the arguments from "my business" and "my employees" fairly lopsided.))
 
((blindgoose, if it helps I'm more than happy to deal with a strike or four. Anything for the story!))

((It's not anyone in specific, so I don't mean this as a personal thing. It's just something I notice happens often with a character of the type. It's kind of hard to argue that the working-men aren't getting what they need when everyone you're arguing with is a benevolent monopolist. I hope you understand what I mean. This isn't directed at any characters in particular, just the class in general. It's something I've observed which hasn't much changed since the introduction of socialism to the game.))
 
((I was against monopolies... I think they end on their own, eventually, from an end of competition. And I pay my people an average amount...))
 
I still do not understand the Federal Party. Anyone care to explain?