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wosung

Second Lieutenant
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Feb 4, 2009
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Like every other version of HOI 2 DH V 1.00 just doesn't manage to represent what, beside the 1937 and 1944 offensives, essentialy was a long strategic stalemate.

Sino- Japanese War in DH:

National China goes for an Alamo centred on its capital Nanjing, even if Japan is beyond Chongqing. Japanese landings in the South, as always, are totally unopposed. The left wing of the Chinese Northern Front, as always, is too weak. Most important: Japan, as always, is blitzkrieg-pocketing the costal part of Central China (Shanghai-Nanjing) from the Chinese hinterland.

To boost National China by giving it all Chinese factions apart from Communist China surely was a right decision. It makes it easier for its military AI. Also, manpower restrictions for Japan are the right way to model the "China incident". But still...

I know, HOI just can't recreate a stalemate. HOI Combat is far too volatile for that.
But the fact remains, IRL Japan started fighting just another "border incident on the mainland" in 1937 with only 17 divisions in Northern China plus rapidly deployed 3 divisions in Shanghai. Even in 1941 there only were some 30 Japanese divisions fighting in China. Until 1944 the Japanese war aim was to break National Chinas will to fight on. This incident was about gaining exclusive indirect Japanese influence in coastal China, not about an all out conquest of the vast Chinese Hinterland. Thus, Japan aimed at directly taking the political, economical and symbolic centres of China: Nanjing, Shanghai, Peking, and later on Wuhan (Hankou) to force National China to negotiations. There was no plan B for the the unliklely & (nearly) unpreceeded case of China won't giving in and taking up the fight.

It might be a good idea to:

-lower the number of Japanese divisions even further (by manpower), and adding some Pacific war divisions later on, maybe by decision.
-revamp the Japanese AI for land operations, so to make it operate mostly/only in North China and Central/South Coastal China and leave out the Hinterland
-use a small number of fixed garrisons for every Chinese province to represent local (ex-) warlord Chinese forces, in order to prevent Japanese forces to wander around in the Hinterland totally unopposed
-give Chiang Kaishek only some 20 to 30 divisions, low quality in HOI terms, as elite maneuver forces. IRL most of those were annihilated in the Battle for Shanghai 1937.

Regards
 
Exactly like in the first release of AOD, Japan steamrolls china in a few months. And as much anticipated, DH and AOD have the same historical flaws and bugs. AOD needed three or four pathes to get the Sino-Japaneese front more or less senisible
 
To tell the truth, the problem with the Sino-Japanese war is that it is extremely difficult to balance, every change to the game unbalances it so after every change it takes time for us to re-balance it.
However, there as been reports of Chinese AI resisting to Japanese AI (can't remember if with 1.00 or 1.01), so I think there's hope. :)
 
Got some offhands playing as Cuba watching the Sino-Japanese war.

  1. When Japan attacks China will redeploy almost all troops towards the border area. http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5015/chinajap.jpg
  2. Japan will not utilize this until much later. Here is the first successful amphibious attack by Japan (they tried once in Shanghai but it was guarded by 1-3 troops, other "beaches" where unguarded). http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/1355/chinajap2.jpg
  3. They attacked further. http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5982/chinajap3.jpg
  4. And surrounded the Chinese beautifully. http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/406/chinajap4.jpg
  5. The advances are still slow though. http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6629/chinajap5.jpg
  6. A third front is opened. http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/7721/chinajap6.jpg

This is where I paused to post these pictures. I'll continue the game now.

edit: this is with the latest beta.
 
To tell the truth, the problem with the Sino-Japanese war is that it is extremely difficult to balance, every change to the game unbalances it so after every change it takes time for us to re-balance it.
However, there as been reports of Chinese AI resisting to Japanese AI (can't remember if with 1.00 or 1.01), so I think there's hope. :)

Yup. I actually tried to find the post where Lennartos said exactly the same
 
From what I've read, they NEVER even bothered with the western part of the country (besides "strategic civilian bombings).
From gameplay, they tend to come north from Manchuria and create a pocket around the North and Eastern fronts, taking Nanjing quickly and pushing west. Didn't the Communists take the northern parts of China, mostly Japanese-free, while the Nats were focused on bigger battles? Japan tends to ignore the Commies on the most part (realistically), which I'm assuming has to do with the fortifications. The Nats had tactics similar to George Washington, fighting with a quick surge and retreating before they could be retaliated against. Again, it was purposefully a war of attrition, as the Nats were counting on Allied intervention that never came (besides in the form of two nukes).
Playing as the Commies can be fun in that you can constantly create pockets around your territory for the Nats, as the Japanese never stack high enough to take your few fortified areas.
 
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The main problem in 1.0 is that national china starts without technologies for strategic redeployment, which leaves 60+% of their troops stuck in deployment for a year while Japan steamrolls them.
Secondary problem was Japans ai rushing for VPs in the Japanese inland.

once those were fixed we could see some pretty long campaigns. by far not perfectm but much better.
 
It's notoriously difficult to get this right because you basically have to tell the AI to stop advancing once they reach the historical lines of maximum advance.

That's what they did in the original version of HoI2, and strangely enough, it's probably the only time a historical frontline ever occured in game :rofl:
 
It's notoriously difficult to get this right because you basically have to tell the AI to stop advancing once they reach the historical lines of maximum advance.

Thats not about it. Once AI reach the historical lines of maximum advance the oppnent becomes to strong for them to further advance. This is the definition of balance in HOI terms.
 
it's perhaps a little offtopic but i think the IC China-map is a lot more suited for the Sino-Japanese War :much more detailed map ->more provinces ->Japan has to supress A LOT more territory/partisans ->heavier logistical problem ->reflects also the "trade-space-for-time"strategy more practically ->stalemate in later years more probable.
Another suggestion is to set a maximum of supply capability for each port level (10 Port level in Shanghai->nearly 12 troops are suppliable ;0 ports but coastal province(e.g. Xiamen->max 1 division(which can't drive to the hinterland)) , sry that i mentioned IC-map but that's my thought..
 
The main problem in 1.0 is that national china starts without technologies for strategic redeployment, which leaves 60+% of their troops stuck in deployment for a year while Japan steamrolls them.
Secondary problem was Japans ai rushing for VPs in the Japanese inland.

once those were fixed we could see some pretty long campaigns. by far not perfectm but much better.

Seems to be one of the main problems. Since strategic redeplyment takes ages, China needs to garriosn its coastline. The mad steamrolling usally occurs from an attack on an undefended coastal province, thus leaving all of the heartland open to attack before Chinese forces are redeloyed
 
it's perhaps a little offtopic but i think the IC China-map is a lot more suited for the Sino-Japanese War :much more detailed map ->more provinces ->Japan has to supress A LOT more territory/partisans ->heavier logistical problem ->reflects also the "trade-space-for-time"strategy more practically ->stalemate in later years more probable.
Another suggestion is to set a maximum of supply capability for each port level (10 Port level in Shanghai->nearly 12 troops are suppliable ;0 ports but coastal province(e.g. Xiamen->max 1 division(which can't drive to the hinterland)) , sry that i mentioned IC-map but that's my thought..
Don't worry, we don't get offended if you prefer the IC map. De gustibus non disputandum est, it's a matter of taste. :)