Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers

TZoli said:

I know most of these designs are post 1936 but they are interesting designs.

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Actually, what I'm interested in are the post '36 designs, not anything proposed beforehand.

No, thanks for pointing it out.

Wow, I'm gone for a week and a bunch of new posts popped up

@Rancher: I didn't initially intend to include those countries because they purchased everything from the majors. After the first naval treaty was signed post-WW1, the RN and USN in particular had to get rid of a lot of ships in order to meet the new tonnage limits, and a lot of those ships were sold off. Greece got two USN pre-dreadnoughts (they fought in WW2 as immobile coastal batteries), while Chile, Brazil, and Argentina bought a bunch of battleships. Since you went ahead and listed their navies, I'll provide links to your posts in the first post.

@VetMax, hegemon: Actually, there are a LOT of countries that built planes via license (Argentina, Mexico, etc.), so that list is way off.

Second Polish Republic

After 123 years of foreign occupation, Poland once again became an independent nation as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Immediately, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine (during its short-lived pre-Soviet independence), and the USSR fought a series of wars starting in 1918 and ending in 1922 that determined Poland's eastern borders. Tensions between Poland and Germany, and Poland and Czechoslovakia were also high, as Poland had claims on Czechoslovakian Silesia, and Germany resented the loss of territory. As a result, Poland was an aggressive state seeking to reclaim its historic borders while being surrounded by hostile forces attempting to do the same to Poland.

Due to its small coastline, Poland felt it didn't require a large navy to protect its sealanes, and due to the global depression Poland couldn't afford to build a massive navy and had no experience building warships. As such, Poland looked abroad to bolster its navy. Prior to 1939, Poland felt its primary enemy was the USSR, not Germany. Initially, Poland looked to France and bought 2 destroyers and 3 submarines, but due to their exceptionally poor quality, Poland later purchased destroyers from the UK and submarines from the Dutch. Poland's ultimate goal was to build its own ships larger than minesweepers and expand its arms industry. In 1935, after Germany's rearmament started, a "central industrial center" was proposed and some work started with the goal of it being completed by 1941. The idea was to create a massive industrial area between the Vistula and San rivers, away from both the German and Soviet borders, in order to fuel the growing Polish military and overall economy. This industrial area didn't reach its intended size.


Ships in service in 1936
1 D`Entrecasteaux-class Light Cruiser (renamed the Baltyk, this ship was built in 1899 in France and sold to Poland as a hulk in 1927; it had little to no combat value)
2 Wicher-class Destroyers (French-built destroyers)
3 Wilk-class Submarines (French-built subs)

Additional ships commissioned by 1939
2 Grom-class Destroyers (UK-built destroyers)
2 Orzel-class Submarines (Dutch-built subs, the Orzel had a very interesting career)

Ships launched in 1939
2 Huragan-class Destroyers (construction started in July '37, scrapped by Germany; these were built in Gdynia by Poland itself)
2 unknown-class Submarines (laid down in France, never named, scrapped by Germany)

Poland also had many naval expansion plans, none of which were feasible due to economic reasons (notice the differences between the two 1920 build plans ). The lists below are for the total fleet size. At the time the 1936 plan was made, Poland's navy consisted of only 2 destroyers and 3 submarines plus smaller vessels from the 1924 Plan, and only 2 additional destroyers and 2 additional submarines were delivered by the time the war started. The 1936 build plan was to be completed by 1942, with the bulk of the ships being built in Poland itself starting in 1940. The following are official expansion plans that were approved by Poland's government.

Russian Empire ships claimed by Poland*
2 Gangut-class Battleships
2 Svetlana-class cruisers (both unfinished)
10 destroyers
5 submarines

1st 1920 Plan
2 Battleships (these are NOT the Ganguts from above)
6 Light Cruisers
28 Destroyers
45 Submarines

2nd 1920 Plan (revision of the 1st 1920 Plan)
1 Light Cruiser
4 Destroyers
2 Submarines

1924 Plan (revision of the 2nd 1920 Plan)
2 Light Cruisers
6 Destroyers (2 delivered)
12 Submarines (3 delivered)

1936 expansion plan (revision of the 1924 Plan)
8 Destroyers (2 delivered, 2 already existing from '24 plan, 2 under construction when the war started)
12 Submarines (2 delivered, 3 already from '24 plan, 2 under construction in France when war started)

* Due to the chaos of the disintegration of the Russian Empire and the Russian Civil War, not all post-Russian states were given "their share" of the Russian navy. During the 1921 Riga peace talks, Poland demanded its share of the Russian navy, but dropped the claims for territorial gains instead to end the Polish-Soviet War.

My source was the official Polish Navy website: http://www.polishnavy.pl/PMW/history/index.html

TZoli has provided some more info about Poland's unofficial expansion plans, none of which were approved:

TZoli said:

1936/37 naval programme (what the polish admirals wanted)
2 Battleships similar to the 1938/39 one probably meant to counter the German Scharnhorsts
2 Heavy cruiser of 10.000tons 3x3 203mm Guns 9x 120mm AA guns 4x2 Torpedoes 10.000shp engine 200mm Armour
9 Destroyers
18 Submarines

1937/38 naval programme (what the polish admirals wanted)
3 Battleships of 25.000 tons 350mm Belt armour 120-140.000shp engine 3x3 305mm Cannons 4x3 or 6x2 150mm Guns 2x3 Torpedoes
1 Aircraft Cruiser probably similar to the Swedish Gotland crusier
12 Destroyers
21 Submarines
Proposed Naval Plan of 1942: (to be start at)
1 Battleship
1 Heavy Cruiser of 15.000tons 3x3 203mm and 9x 120mm Guns
Numerous Destroyers

constructive post from that forum:

" This 150 000 tons fleet is not the coincident. It has roots in Geneva Conference where Poland stated programme for such a large navy. It was purely of political reasons and everybody was aware that this was just propaganda and had nothing to do with real programme. In fact before Geneva Conference Polish Navy prepared 6 versions of the programme ranging from the most realistic ones to the totally s-f. The so called A programme stands for 18 500 t fleet, B for 25 000 t, C for 70 500 t (1 BB, 2 CA), D for 100 000 t (2 BB, 2 CA), E for 150 000 t (3 BB, 6 CA) and F for fantastic 210 000 t (4 BB, 8 CA). It was proposed to present in Geneva one of the versions D, E, F as 'official plans' and to show Polish ambitions for big navy. Later it was decided to show E as official plan. In fact the real plan was B which was later executed as 6-year programme (1936/42: 6 DD, 12 SS, 1 CM, 12 PM, 12 MTB). "

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Comm Cody said:

Poland Wanted 2?! Battleships?

*has a heart attack in horror*

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Greece actually bought 2 American pre-dreadnoughts during the '20s, both of which were destroyed by the Germans. I say destroyed instead of sunk because they were both beached in the '30s as coastal defense batteries, and weren't capable of going out to sea. Given that, plus the fact that the US and UK were actively selling their old battleships it isn't surprising that Poland wanted a few. Argentina, Chile, and Brazil all bought their navies during this time frame too, including the battleships.

Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes

After the collapse of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire and the fall of the Hapsburgs, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was one of the empire's successor states. Yugoslavia's creation fulfilled several Entente objectives: Austria was to be weakened by losing Slovenia, Hungary was to be weakened by losing most of Croatia and its access to the sea, and Serbia (who arguably was the ultimate cause of the whole war by assassinating the Archduke Ferdinand) achieved a major step toward its long-running goal of uniting all southern Slavic peoples in order to gain power for itself. However, a major Serbian demand, that of a large portion of the Austrian navy, was blocked by Italy, who feared the rise of another possible Mediterranean sea power. As such, Yugoslavia received only a few outdated (even by WW1 standards) destroyers and minesweepers and was denied the Austrian and Hungarian naval bases and shipyards in Pola and Rijeka.

The Yugoslav Royal Navy was quite small in 1936, mainly due to economic factors. As with most small naval powers, the vast majority of the JRM was purchased from abroad. The reason I'm putting it in this thread is because it was building foreign-designed destroyers in its own shipyards, just like Poland and China were. The goal of the JRM was to intercept and harass Italian merchant shipping, while attempting to protect its own from Italian submarines.

Commissioned ships in 1936
1 Niobe-class light cruiser (bought from Germany in 1925; captured by Italy, then again by Germany; sunk by the UK in 1943)
1 Dubrovnik-class heavy destroyer (bought from the UK in 1932, largest destroyer ever built when it was commissioned, captured by Italy then Germany; sunk in 1943)
2 Osvetnik-class Submarines (built in France, bought in 1928)
2 Hrabri-class Submarines (built in the UK, bought in 1927)

Additional commissioned ships by 1941
3 Beograd-class Destroyers (1 built in France, 2 built in Split and Kraljevica, Yugoslavia)

Ships launched by 1941
1 Split-class Destroyer (built in Split, Yugoslavia; captured by Italy, who resumed construction but didn't complete it before surrendering; Germany sunk it, and Yugoslavia raised it after the war, where it was towed to the UK and finished)